The Coccyx

pshun2404

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Ves·tig·i·al

adjective

  1. forming a very small remnant of something that was once much larger or more noticeable.
synonyms: remaining,

surviving, residual, leftover, lingering

  • In BIOLOGY
(of an organ or part of the body) degenerate, rudimentary, or atrophied, having become functionless in the course of evolution.

Thus, the coccyx is not a vestigial tail at all because

a) as far back as we can go this feature was never a tail, never atrophied, or “degenerated” from something longer. Even in the alleged earliest human species the coccyx is short, and


b) because the coccyx is known to be there to support a ganglia of nervous tissue covered in grey matter (like a little brain - coccygeal plexus) and not only is the connective source of the two coccygeal and also sciatic nerves, but assists (and is necessary to) the autonomic urogenital functions. In its parasympathetic stimulated phase it is essential to our sexuality, thus mating, thus perpetuation and survival of the species. It carries the sensation/information through the axons to the central nervous system and back through transmission across the dentrites.

Gray's anatomy for students, Philadelphia, Elsevier/Churchill Livingstone, p. 423, tells us that the ganglia attached and supported there contribute to the innervation of the pelvic and genital organs. The nerves “regulate the emptying of the bladder, control the opening and closing of the internal urethral sphincter, motility in the rectum as well as sexual functions.” Thus they maintain their function.

Roberto Spiegelmann, Edgardo Schinder, Mordejai Mintz, and Alexander Blakstein, in "The human tail: a benign stigma," Journal of Neurosurgery, 63: 461-462 (1985) explain that “True human tails are rarely encountered in medicine. At the time when Darwin's theory of evolution was a matter of debate, hundreds of dubious cases were reported. The presence of a tail in a human being was considered by evolutionists as an example that "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny." But the theory that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny has been disproven in modern times. The main proponent of this notion was Ernst Heakel who had produced a document showing the similarity of embryos allegedly demonstrating that embryos represent a fish like stage of evolution. We know now that Heakel had perpetrated an intentional fraud, and that these drawings were enhanced to produce the illusion of support for the theory. The premise is not true. Ontogeny does not recapitulate phylogeny. The alleged “gills” are just fat folds on the embryo and all non-egg laying animal embryos receive their oxygen through the blood of the mother, and in no other way.

"Pseudotails" which are often found in other locations on the lower back, are obvious aberrations since they are often associated with anomalies (remember and do not be fooled, the exception is never the rule). What is considered a “true tail” (extending from the coccyx) is far more rare, and together (both kinds) have only been observed on around 100 occasions from among the many millions of births. Secondly, they are not even a real tail (they totally lack vertebrae). The Journal confirms this. In all studies done all these alleged tails lacked “…bone, cartilage, notochord, and spinal cord.”

According to Allan Joel Belzberg, Stanley Terence Myles, and Cynthia Lucy Trevenen, in "The Human Tail and Spinal Dysraphism," Journal of Pediatric Surgery, 26: 1243-1245 (October, 1991), these extremely rare genetic abnormalities in humans have no spinal cord at all. After many surgeries they have determined they are nothing more than a “central core of mature fatty tissue divided into small lobules by thin fibrous septa. Small blood vessels and nerve fibers are scattered throughout. Bundles of striated muscle fibers, sometimes degenerated, tend to aggregate in the center.” This is nothing like any tail we would commonly find on any kind of ape (or any other animal for that matter) and NEVER have found this to be present in any demonstrable ancient ancestor.

And as far as the more common yet still extremely rare pseudo-tail formation, according to Se-Hyuck Park, Jee Soon Huh, Ki Hong Cho, Yong Sam Shin, Se Hyck Kim, Young Hwan Ahn, Kyung Gi Cho, Soo Han Yoon, "Teratoma in Human Tail Lipoma," Pediatric Neurosurgery, 41:158-161 (2005), it “has no embryological relationship to human tail development, but is any variable abnormal caudal tail-like structure or protrusion." Nothing more…not a tail…not indicative of some remote unfounded assumption about the past, not a degeneration, nor is it atrophied…

If these phenomena were truly vestigial in nature we should expect to see at least some vestige of vertebrae or controllable movement but alas we do not. Science offers no demonstrable evidence at all that the human coccyx is anything more than what it is, and likewise demonstrates no evidence whatsoever that it ever was anything other than what it is now.

The entire alleged theory that it is a vestigial organ is a contrived myth (science fiction) based on the acceptance of the hypothesis alone. In the 2012 paper, “Spectrum of human tails: A report of six cases”, four out of the six of the alleged “tails” were higher in the lumbar region, and three of these babies sadly had spinal bifida, one had the appendage protruding from its buttock, and the another from the sacral region. And according to the report 5 out the six allegedly vestigial tails were not even connected to the spine.

Please stop brainwashing our children with this heinous fairytale. If you have been brainwashed by it please wake up now and simply look at the actual data and block the hypothesis based “interpretation” out of your thinking?
 

Shemjaza

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The tail degenerated in our lineage long before our species came along.

The common ancestors of all apes lived over 14 million years ago and had already lost their tails. It is of no surprise that we don't have much left for a functional tail in our genes.

If you examine tails of the various monkey species you can see a variety of sizes and utility.
 
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SkyWriting

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If you examine tails of the various monkey species you can see a variety of sizes and utility.

As with fish as well.

20120520-anatomy%20FishFormsLankester.jpg
 
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Shemjaza

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As with fish as well.

20120520-anatomy%20FishFormsLankester.jpg
Also true.

Modern fish are descended from the survivors of the Permian extinction, so have had hundreds of millions of years to diversify. As far as I know, all fish still use their tails in some way or another. (Hmm, maybe some rays don't?)
 
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SkyWriting

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Also true.

Modern fish are descended from the survivors of the Permian extinction, so have had hundreds of millions of years to diversify. As far as I know, all fish still use their tails in some way or another. (Hmm, maybe some rays don't?)

I don't pretend to know fish ancestry as others do.
 
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pshun2404

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The tail degenerated in our lineage long before our species came along.

The common ancestors of all apes lived over 14 million years ago and had already lost their tails. It is of no surprise that we don't have much left for a functional tail in our genes.

If you examine tails of the various monkey species you can see a variety of sizes and utility.

Skipping the monkeys that no one says we are descended from can you show us some evidence, maybe one ape fossil we are related to from 14 million years ago, that has a tail...or is this claim just more sci fi....
 
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pshun2404

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Also true.

Modern fish are descended from the survivors of the Permian extinction, so have had hundreds of millions of years to diversify. As far as I know, all fish still use their tails in some way or another. (Hmm, maybe some rays don't?)

I agree...I do not see evidence of any fish's tails becoming vestigial in this.
 
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The Barbarian

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A few errors in the OP.
1. "Vestigial" does not mean useless. And that's from the start. Darwin himself mentioned this fact in The Origin of Species.
2. In Utero, humans have about 10 vertebrae in their tails. These are absorbed and there are only 4 left in most people at birth.
3. The coccyx is not a necessary organ. Coccygeal agenesis is not uncommon and unless part of the sacrum is also missing, it is generally without symptoms. Most people who have it, never realize it, unless they take an x-ray for something else.
4. Branchial arches (which form gill supports in fish) have other functions in humans. The same tissues that support gills produce our jaws, parts of our ear, and skull. They are vestigial for gills, but of course (as Darwin mentioned) have adapted to other uses. They only appear to be gill slits in human embryos, and soon develop into other structures. The only reason that we have what look like "gill slits" is that our development is constrained by our evolutionary history, and uses older structures to make new ones.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Skipping the monkeys that no one says we are descended from can you show us some evidence, maybe one ape fossil we are related to from 14 million years ago, that has a tail...or is this claim just more sci fi....

Actually we are not descended from modern monkeys. But if you are going to call both old world cercopithecidae and new world platyrrhini "monkeys" then by cladistics we are monkeys too. But, not only is our relationship to other simians obvious, as a result of the fact that the coccyx is a vestigial tail there are sometimes atavisms where people are born with functioning tails.
newtail.jpg


And a bit more can be read here:

http://daphne.palomar.edu/ccarpenter/vestiges.htm

Creationists dishonestly try to change the meaning of vestigial from "without its original function" to "worthless". Then by finding that a vestigial organ is not quite worthless they try to claim it is not vestigial.
 
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Shemjaza

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Skipping the monkeys that no one says we are descended from can you show us some evidence, maybe one ape fossil we are related to from 14 million years ago, that has a tail...or is this claim just more sci fi....
First dwellers don't often fossilise, so actual fossils are rare.

There is clear morphological and genetic evidence that we share a comparatively recent common ancestor with monkeys.
 
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pshun2404

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First dwellers don't often fossilise, so actual fossils are rare.

There is clear morphological and genetic evidence that we share a comparatively recent common ancestor with monkeys.

They do not exist because there are no Apes from 14 million years ago that had tails and we have no other examples of later apes we allegedly descended from that have tails and NO human examples from the ancient past with a longer coccyx...so why should anybody believe the added sci fi to make the hypothesis appear real (it is an imposed presumption not truth)

In truth there is ZERO evidence that we actually had tails that are now shorter, degenerated, atrophied, etc....

Also Barbarian is incorrect. The definition does not emphasize "useless" in any way, that is listed as one characteristic in some cases (as Darwin even admitted)....and Embryos do not have "tails" just spinal columns that are larger than their bodies at that stage, but feel free to humor the Barbarian if you wish....
 
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Loudmouth

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Thus, the coccyx is not a vestigial tail at all because

a) as far back as we can go this feature was never a tail, never atrophied, or “degenerated” from something longer. Even in the alleged earliest human species the coccyx is short, and

It was present in your primate ancestors, and it served as an anchoring point for the tail and the muscles that moved the tail. In fact, we still have the extensor coccygis muscle which spans a fused joint in the coccyx. That's right, we have a muscle that spans a bone joint which can't flex. That same muscle lifts the tail in the other species.

dorsal sacrococcygeus muscle
(redirected from musculus extensor coccygis)
"an inconstant and poorly developed muscle on the dorsal surfaces of the sacrum and coccyx, the remains of a portion of the tail musculature of lower animals."
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/musculus+extensor+coccygis

b) because the coccyx is known to be there to support a ganglia of nervous tissue covered in grey matter (like a little brain - coccygeal plexus) and not only is the connective source of the two coccygeal and also sciatic nerves, but assists (and is necessary to) the autonomic urogenital functions. In its parasympathetic stimulated phase it is essential to our sexuality, thus mating, thus perpetuation and survival of the species. It carries the sensation/information through the axons to the central nervous system and back through transmission across the dentrites.

That is a rudimentary function, completely in line with being vestigial.

Have you once again ignored the very material you have quoted? Notice that the definition you give includes rudimentary function.

What is also interesting, and something creationists always ignore, is that vestigial organs are consistent with the evolutionary history of a lineage. Never do we see vestigial feathers in a mammal, or vestigial mammary glands in birds. All of the vestigial features are consistent with the proposed evolutionary history of the lineage.
 
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Loudmouth

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They do not exist because there are no Apes from 14 million years ago that had tails and we have no other examples of later apes we allegedly descended from that have tails and NO human examples from the ancient past with a longer coccyx...so why should anybody believe the added sci fi to make the hypothesis appear real (it is an imposed presumption not truth)

http://tolweb.org/Primates/15963
 
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Shemjaza

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They do not exist because there are no Apes from 14 million years ago that had tails and we have no other examples of later apes we allegedly descended from that have tails and NO human examples from the ancient past with a longer coccyx...so why should anybody believe the added sci fi to make the hypothesis appear real (it is an imposed presumption not truth)

In truth there is ZERO evidence that we actually had tails that are now shorter, degenerated, atrophied, etc....

Also Barbarian is incorrect. The definition does not emphasize "useless" in any way, that is listed as one characteristic in some cases (as Darwin even admitted)....and Embryos do not have "tails" just spinal columns that are larger than their bodies at that stage, but feel free to humor the Barbarian if you wish....
Apes don't have tails. There have been apes around for at least 14 million years and they haven't had tails for that whole time.

The two groups of animals we call monkeys do have tails and we (along with the rest of the apes) are related to them and we still have signs we used to have tails.

This isn't made up science fiction, it's logical inferences from multiple lines of evidence.

You're free to disbelieve in achieve if you like, but at least be honest with why. Bluster and hand waving about evidence is a smoke screen in front of your unbreakable religious convictions.
 
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pshun2404

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Have you once again ignored the very material you have quoted? Notice that the definition you give includes rudimentary function.

No! I have ignored nothing….primary, basic, elementary,…taking this word to mean “undeveloped” still does not automatically mean degenerate or atrophied or NOW LESS THAN SOMETHING IT WAS….in fact it COULD INDICATE something this function will become at some future time….

The extensor coccygis muscle in humans may indicate at one time this fused section of vertebrae was once flexible (but certainly not longer) and is slight because it is not used but that does not mean it is indicative of a tail having been there just flexibility.

You say “What is also interesting, and something creationists always ignore, is that vestigial organs are consistent with the evolutionary history of a lineage.

Well I certainly have not ignored the claim, I just do not buy it because after thirty years of insisting on it as a fact, I realized there are too many good questions and other ways of explaining these things (as you can see in my OP even many scientists that are not creationists see the subject as controversial)…it is only insisted upon as OBVIOUS if one accepts the hypothesis, and only explained in this way if one first concludes in their mind (as I did) that the hypothesis is true (which I no longer do).
 
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Shemjaza

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Have you once again ignored the very material you have quoted? Notice that the definition you give includes rudimentary function.

No! I have ignored nothing….primary, basic, elementary,…taking this word to mean “undeveloped” still does not automatically mean degenerate or atrophied or NOW LESS THAN SOMETHING IT WAS….in fact it COULD INDICATE something this function will become at some future time….

The extensor coccygis muscle in humans may indicate at one time this fused section of vertebrae was once flexible (but certainly not longer) and is slight because it is not used but that does not mean it is indicative of a tail having been there just flexibility.

You say “What is also interesting, and something creationists always ignore, is that vestigial organs are consistent with the evolutionary history of a lineage.

Well I certainly have not ignored the claim, I just do not buy it because after thirty years of insisting on it as a fact, I realized there are too many good questions and other ways of explaining these things (as you can see in my OP even many scientists that are not creationists see the subject as controversial)…it is only insisted upon as OBVIOUS if one accepts the hypothesis, and only explained in this way if one first concludes in their mind (as I did) that the hypothesis is true (which I no longer do).
I don't believe you can present a single scientist who is not a creationist who doesn't think humans share a common tailed ancestor with monkeys.

The evidence you barely accept about the structure of the coccyx is not found in isolation, it is consistent with all the other evidence about it being a degenerate tail.
 
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The Barbarian

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Also Barbarian is incorrect. The definition does not emphasize "useless" in any way, that is listed as one characteristic in some cases

There is no requirement at all for vestigial organs to be useless. In fact, it takes a little looking to find one that is so. If you doubt this, I'd be pleased to see your list of claimed vestigial structures with no function at all.

Embryos do not have "tails" just spinal columns that are larger than their bodies at that stage,

That is a working definition of a tail. "Dogs don't really have tails; they just have a spinal column larger than their bodies."
Yep. That's the ticket.
 
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Radrook

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Doctor David Menton disagrees:

The Human Coccyx (Tailbone)


What happens when a scientist does not take to the indoctrination of Darwinian Evolution? Enter Dr. David Menton. Dr. Menton has a Ph.D. in cell biology from Brown University. He has a long and illustrious career as medical school professor earning the Silver Award for Basic Research from the American Academy of Dermatology. He was awarded the 'Distinguished Service Teaching Award' from Washington University School of Medicine in 1991, 1994, 1995, 1996, and 1997. Dr. Menton was named ‘Teacher of the Year’ at Washington University School of Medicine in 1979 and was elected ‘Professor of the Year’ by that same institution.

Dr. Menton has been a thorn in the flesh of those who try to brainwash and indoctrinate others into believing that Darwinian evolution is a fact of science. Why would a medical school professor become a thorn in the flesh of the evolutionary faithful? The reason is really very simple: because he boldly and unashamedly gives his students, and anyone else who is willing to listen, information that the evolutionary establishment will not disclose.

Dr. Menton responded to a clinical case report that appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine entitled, “Evolution and the Human Tail” by Dr. Fred Ledley. In his article, Dr. Ledley strongly implied that this growth (called a caudal appendage) was essentially a ‘human tail’, though he admitted that it had virtually none of the distinctive biological characteristics of a tail! (Menton 1994)

Dr. Menton corrected the erroneous statements of Darwinian scientists that the human tailbone was a vestigial structure and noted that “all true tails have bones in them that are a posterior extension of the vertebral column. Also, all true tails have muscles associated with their vertebrae which permit some movement of the tail” (Menton 1994). Rather than leaving the reader with the impression that the coccyx has no real function in human beings, Dr. Menton points out “that most modern biology textbooks give the erroneous impression that the human coccyx has no real function other than to remind us of the ‘inescapable fact’ of evolution. In fact, the coccyx has some very important functions.

Several muscles converge from the ring-like arrangement of the pelvic (hip) bones to anchor on the coccyx, forming a bowl-shaped muscular floor of the pelvis called the pelvic diaphragm. The incurved coccyx with its attached pelvic diaphragm keeps the many organs in our abdominal cavity from literally falling through between our legs. Some of the pelvic diaphragm muscles are also important in controlling the elimination of waste from our body through the rectum” (Menton 1994).

But this is only one of the allegedly “100’s” of vestigial structures we are being told offer evidence of Darwinian evolution. What of the other three or four mentioned in our biology textbooks? We would not want our wisdom teeth, or those allegedly useless muscles that aid us in moving our ears and noses, to escape the scrutiny of simple logic. Or would we?

http://www.creationstudies.org/Education/vestigal_organs.html#tailbone
 
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Shemjaza

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I agree...I do not see evidence of any fish's tails becoming vestigial in this.
Why would we assume that would happen?

Losing a tail would be a massive loss for a fish. A partially ground based primate is a different story.
Doctor David Menton disagrees:
Wow a YEC with an incorrect definition of vestigial... I'm shocked.
 
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Radrook

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Why would we assume that would happen?

Losing a tail would be a massive loss for a fish. A partially ground based primate is a different story.

Wow a YEC with an incorrect definition of vestigial... I'm shocked.

So shocked that you fail to notice that your premise is seriously flawed?
Information stands or falls on its own merit and not based on the web location on which it is quoted. Too shocked to explain why you deemed it flawed? Too shocked to notice that your one criticism leaves 99% of his other statements intact? Which means that you consider the information to be 99% on target?

BTW
Surgical removal of your coccyx would make normal movement for humans extremely difficult. Removal of a mere tail has no such effect.
 
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