The "cleaning" of confession

[Wryetui]

There is something that I didn't really understand at all. Let's have a hypothethical case, you go to confession and you confess "I have stealen" (and you have stealen many times in your life) and you get forgiveness from God through the priest, if after that, you commit the sin of stealing again, do the "many times stealing" of your life come back? I mean, if you do the sin again, the former confessions of that sin get anulled and you become guilty of that sin's past times again?

 

[All4Christ]

There is something that I didn't really understand at all. Let's have a hypothethical case, you go to confession and you confess "I have stealen" (and you have stealen many times in your life) and you get forgiveness from God through the priest, if after that, you commit the sin of stealing again, do the "many times stealing" of your life come back? I mean, if you do the sin again, the former confessions of that sin get anulled and you become guilty of that sin's past times again?

I don't think you become guilty of the past sins...your sins have been remitted and you are no longer bound by your past sins. Also, I don't think it matters so much how many times you have sinned that same sin in the past, as once it is forgiven, it is gone - a clean slate. Our past sins that we confessed already aren't still being counted in the background and tracking up against us, imho. I believe that purgatory holds a concept that once you die, you still have temporal punishment for past forgiven sins. There is nothing like that in Orthodoxy which keeps track of what we have done in our past for future judgment (after confession). I'll be interested in hearing the others' responses as well.

 

[Wryetui]

I don't think you become guilty of the past sins...your sins have been remitted and you are no longer bound by your past sins. Also, I don't think it matters so much how many times you have sinned that same sin in the past, as once it is forgiven, it is gone - a clean slate. Our past sins that we confessed already aren't still being counted in the background and tracking up against us, imho. I believe that purgatory holds a concept that once you die, you still have temporal punishment for past forgiven sins. There is nothing like that in Orthodoxy which keeps track of what we have done in our past for future judgment (after confession). I'll be interested in hearing the others' responses as well.

I also have the same belief as you. But someone told me (not sure if he was episcopalian or catholic) that if you confess a sin it is forgiven no matter how many times you did it in the past, but if you do it again, the times you did it in the past "return" and you are still guilty for those times again.

It didn't make too much sense for me, but I wanted to ask your opinions because maybe I was the one who was wrong.

 

[All4Christ]

I also have the same belief as you. But someone told me (not sure if he was episcopalian or catholic) that if you confess a sin it is forgiven no matter how many times you did it in the past, but if you do it again, the times you did it in the past "return" and you are still guilty for those times again.

It didn't make too much sense for me, but I wanted to ask your opinions because maybe I was the one who was wrong.

I completely understand how you feel. I always hesitate to answer these as I know what I think is right but am not 100% confident, especially since I didn't grow up in the Church. That's what I like about TAW...if I answer wrong, other people can help clarify it more

 

[Anhelyna]

If it's any consolation - I've always been told that once you have confessed the sin - then it's gone , wiped out , over and done with.

Should you commit it again - then it's a new sin and should be confessed as a new sin - not as an old one coming back in addition to the new one.

 

[Wryetui]

I understand, thank you for your responses!

Now I have another question (and instead of opening a whole new tab I will rather put it here). Do you think at confession we should confess the sins we commited with our minds as like we made them? The same person told me that if I think about killing and I wish it I have to confess to my priest: "I have killed" or if you think about commiting sodomy and wish it even if the act does not happen you have to confess "I have commited sodomy" but this sounds bizarre too, right?

 

[All4Christ]

I understand, thank you for your responses!

Now I have another question (and instead of opening a whole new tab I will rather put it here). Do you think at confession we should confess the sins we commited with our minds as like we made them? The same person told me that if I think about killing and I wish it I have to confess to my priest: "I have killed" or if you think about commiting sodomy and wish it even if the act does not happen you have to confess "I have commited sodomy" but this sounds bizarre too, right?

Hm. I guess (from a totally uneducated perspective) I would confess the thought if it was weighing on my mind. My priest seems to prefer us to discuss things that are concerning us rather than focusing on them and wondering. That said, some thoughts are sinful. For example, lust is a sin, though it is not necessarily acting upon it. At the same time, something like thinking about killing someone - if it is a temptation yet we turn from it - I don't think it would be necessary to confess it the same way as if you actually killed someone. If it became a pattern of thinking about it though, you should definitely talk to your priest about it to ask for advice to overcome those thoughts. For all sins you think about committing - I guess the most important thing is to lay it at the cross and ask God to help you to get past those thoughts and temptations.

 

[ArmyMatt]

you are guilty of the unconfessed sins, not the same ones you committed a while ago.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It's a conversation you should have with your Confessor. But the basic answer is that I would not confess a thought as if it were an action, because my Confessor is not only reading the prayers of absolution for me (the purpose of Confession) but also acts in other ways by offering guidance, giving me the Eucharist, and so on.

If a person became angry and thought that they would like to kill someone - that is a sin and needs to be confessed. But the spiritual guidance and giving of Communion and so on would be different if that person actually HAD killed someone.

It sounds to me as though the advice is meant to make you "own" your sins, and not shrug then off because they were only thought-sins and not actively committed ones. That is good - because Christ said that to commit a sin with one's heart is the same as actually doing it. So we need to understand that we bear guilt for sins "only in the mind" and recognize that they can damage our souls in the same way that committed acts can do.

But just to confess in that way, without your Confessor knowing the difference, would confuse matters.

You should ask your Confessor though.

And I do know some Saints have confessed sins not their own, or taken something like a fleeting thought of irritation and confessed that as having committed murder. So yes, I think "owning" the sin, and knowing the depth of evil our thoughts can reveal is good. But your Confessor needs to know what's actually going on with you.

 

[Wryetui]

It's a conversation you should have with your Confessor. But the basic answer is that I would not confess a thought as if it were an action, because my Confessor is not only reading the prayers of absolution for me (the purpose of Confession) but also acts in other ways by offering guidance, giving me the Eucharist, and so on.

If a person became angry and thought that they would like to kill someone - that is a sin and needs to be confessed. But the spiritual guidance and giving of Communion and so on would be different if that person actually HAD killed someone.

It sounds to me as though the advice is meant to make you "own" your sins, and not shrug then off because they were only thought-sins and not actively committed ones. That is good - because Christ said that to commit a sin with one's heart is the same as actually doing it. So we need to understand that we bear guilt for sins "only in the mind" and recognize that they can damage our souls in the same way that committed acts can do.

But just to confess in that way, without your Confessor knowing the difference, would confuse matters.

You should ask your Confessor though.

And I do know some Saints have confessed sins not their own, or taken something like a fleeting thought of irritation and confessed that as having committed murder. So yes, I think "owning" the sin, and knowing the depth of evil our thoughts can reveal is good. But your Confessor needs to know what's actually going on with you.

I understand what you are saying. After all, that is sin, the union of will with mind, the Holy Fathers called the mind "the bridge of the devils" and what we are trying to heal is our inner selves, it doesn't matter if we don't kill if the desire of killing is still in our souls, we are just as sick...

 

[~Anastasia~]

I understand what you are saying. After all, that is sin, the union of will with mind, the Holy Fathers called the mind "the bridge of the devils" and what we are trying to heal is our inner selves, it doesn't matter if we don't kill if the desire of killing is still in our souls, we are just as sick...

Right.

But if one actually murdered someone, they can expect to be barred from the chalice, I would think. But just wanting to kill someone, or thinking about it - though it is the same kind of stain on our souls, evidence of the same sickness - doesn't have the same degree of consequence.

I'm glad I shall never have to be a Confessor! To figure out how best to handle all these things must be very complex, and the responsibility tremendous.

 

[All4Christ]

@Kylissa - In light of your comments about how the Fathers treated thoughts of sins with confession, what makes temptation a sin? In Hebrews it speaks of Jesus being tempted in every way we are, yet He was without sin. I'm not saying you and the Church Fathers are wrong - but I am curious as to the general position of the Church overall on what makes temptation sin.

St Theophan the Recluse said that there are phases of temptation- and that it may be a sin or not be a sin depending on the stage you are at.

"Be strong. The enemy fights you. But this does not mean that you are sinful. Nor should his attacks shake you or confuse you. Temptations arise from the envy of the enemy and return to his head. Not only you are not responsible for it, but provided you struggle you will profit from it. Each time you repulse an attack of the enemy you secure a victory and you gratify God. It is not possible to avoid the annoying attacks of the enemy. Our life is formed in such a way. But this does not lead to the loss of the fighter, but rather to his salvation. As a consequence of the fall of the first created humans the passions nestle in us."

So if we are tempted and turn away from that temptation, it is a spiritual victory. The initial temptation is a result of an attack by the enemy. We need to turn away from it immediately. Preoccupation with that sinful thought moves us closer to committing that sin. This would be a gray area. St Theophan says that at this phase, "Sin is still not occurring, but its beginning is created.". Once in the third phase, in which we take pleasure at the thought of sin, we are in an unclean position. While the actual sin has not occurred, the sin of taking pleasure at the thought of the sin has taken place. The fourth and fifth phase are the unintentional bending of will towards that sin and consenting to commit the sin. Again, these put a person into an unclean state. The sixth stage is the actual committing of the sin itself.

Perhaps we don't need to get into defining which stage of temptation we are at (I have a hard enough time figuring out exactly what to confess without analyzing whether it is or is not a sin!), but I do think it is helpful to recognize that the enemy does present temptations in front of us, and that turning away from those temptations is a spiritual victory. If we turn away immediately - I don't think it is a sin. That said, I am not 100% confident in what makes a temptation no longer just a temptation but also a sin.

Any thoughts?

Concerning temptation and sin
by St Theophan the Recluse

Be strong. The enemy fights you. But this does not mean that you are sinful. Nor should his attacks shake you or confuse you. Temptations arise from the envy of the enemy and return to his head. Not only you are not responsible for it, but provided you struggle you will profit from it. Each time you repulse an attack of the enemy you secure a victory and you gratify God. It is not possible to avoid the annoying attacks of the enemy. Our life is formed in such a way. But this does not lead to the loss of the fighter, but rather to his salvation. As a consequence of the fall of the first created humans the passions nestle in us.

In order to get rid of them we must firstly realise their,existence. And in order that we realise their existence they must manifest themselves, they must come out of their hiding. Temptations play their part in this and so, without the enemy's intention, they help in our cleansing and sanctification. Thus the temptations force the evil that is hiding in us to come to the surface. The temptations arise from the flesh, the world and the devil.

Usually it progresses in these stages:

1. A bad thought appears in the mind or one of the senses is attacked. For example the eyes see an indecent picture. This is the start of the temptation. At this stage there is no sin or guilt because we are still at the attacking phase or at the unintentional attack by the enemy. If you react immediately and you turn to the Lord you have won a crown. But if you do not object and you start occupying yourself with the thought or the picture, this is not a good sign. Your Soul wavered. Despite all these so far there is no sin. But you took a step towards it. There are persistent indecent thoughts, thoughts that do not disappear easily or they return. Do not be weary of this. It is the work of the enemy. If every time you show your immediate dislike towards them and you go to the Lord frequently you are in a good spiritual condition. So do indecent thoughts come in you? Drive them away. Do they persist? You also persist in driving them away. The ancient fathers did the same thing. They, indeed, taught that the sooner one drives away the first bad thoughts the quicker he is freed from the war off the enemy. But he who delays and starts to occupy himself with the temptation then he will make the second step to the fall.

2. The preoccupation with the temptation or the discussion with it is the second phase. Sin is still not occurring, but its beginning is created.

3. The third phase is a satisfaction or pleasure which arises from the prolongation of the temptation. At this stage we might have not committed the sin, but we are definitely in an unclean situation. Indeed it happens that the experience of,pleasure arises without our will taking active part.

4. The fourth step towards sin is the bending of our will even if we have not eventually given our approval. At this point there is guilt because we cannot always be masters of our feelings, but we can be masters of our will. As yet we have not practised sin, but we are at its threshold.

5. The fifth phase is the consent to sin or the decision by a person to sin. Here we definitely have a sin but an internal sin.

6. After this follows the final stage, that is to say the commitment of sin. Here we have the complete fall, the destruction of the soul, the deprivation of the Divine Grace, the submission to the authority of the enemy. Regarding the blasphemous thought, or the blasphemous thoughts of disbelief which are directed against the Holy Communion you should know that they come from the enemy. The Lord Himself instituted the mystery of the Divine Eucharist saying: "This is my body" and "This is my blood". In addition He gave the commandment "Do this in remembrance of me" (Luke 22. 19). The Apostles started to perform this holy Mystery and since then this act of the Church has not stopped nor would it stop until the end of time. joy is not something external to ourselves but it comes from the depths of our being. For us Christians joy arises from the expectation and the life in the wealth that emanate from the divine incarnation and it increases with our persistence in the state of our adoption by God. The Lord received human flesh from the virgin blood of our All Holy Virgin Mary and we become one with Him because of this incarnation. For this reason an important characteristic of the Christian life is the esteem of virginity. Not only bodily virginity but also spiritual.

The carnal sin constitutes a denial of our Christian qualities. And nothing suppresses the spiritual joy as much as this sin, although the enemy continually whispers to us that it is natural and insignificant.

translated by C. Theodorou in Orthodox Messenger, May/June 1998
The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Australia publication

http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/sin.htm

 

[All4Christ]

@Wryetui - maybe this quote from St John of Kronstadt might help you when dealing with this?

“Firmly purpose in your soul to hate every sin of thought, word, and deed, and when you are tempted to sin resist it valiantly and with a feeling of hatred for it; only beware lest your hatred should turn against the person of your brother who gave occasion for the sin. Hate the sin with all your heart, but pity your brother; instruct him, and pray for him to the Almighty, Who sees all of us and tries our hearts and innermost parts. ‘Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.’ (Hebrews 12:4) It is impossible not to often fall into sin unless you have a hatred of it implanted in your heart. Self-love must be eradicated. Every sin comes from the love of self. Sin always appears, or feigns to be, to wish us well, promising us plenteousness and ease. ‘The tree was good for food, and it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise.’ (Genesis 3:6) This is how sin always appears to us.”

+ St. John of Kronstadt, My Life in Christ

 

[~Anastasia~]

@Kylissa - In light of your comments about how the Fathers treated thoughts of sins with confession, what makes temptation a sin? In Hebrews it speaks of Jesus being tempted in every way we are, yet He was without sin. I'm not saying you and the Church Fathers are wrong - but I am curious as to the general position of the Church overall on what makes temptation sin.

St Theophan the Recluse said that there are phases of temptation- and that it may be a sin or not be a sin depending on the stage you are at.

"Be strong. The enemy fights you. But this does not mean that you are sinful. Nor should his attacks shake you or confuse you. Temptations arise from the envy of the enemy and return to his head. Not only you are not responsible for it, but provided you struggle you will profit from it. Each time you repulse an attack of the enemy you secure a victory and you gratify God. It is not possible to avoid the annoying attacks of the enemy. Our life is formed in such a way. But this does not lead to the loss of the fighter, but rather to his salvation. As a consequence of the fall of the first created humans the passions nestle in us."

So if we are tempted and turn away from that temptation, it is a spiritual victory. The initial temptation is a result of an attack by the enemy. We need to turn away from it immediately. Preoccupation with that sinful thought moves us closer to committing that sin. This would be a gray area. St Theophan says that at this phase, "Sin is still not occurring, but its beginning is created.". Once in the third phase, in which we take pleasure at the thought of sin, we are in an unclean position. While the actual sin has not occurred, the sin of taking pleasure at the thought of the sin has taken place. The fourth and fifth phase are the unintentional bending of will towards that sin and consenting to commit the sin. Again, these put a person into an unclean state. The sixth stage is the actual committing of the sin itself.

Perhaps we don't need to get into defining which stage of temptation we are at (I have a hard enough time figuring out exactly what to confess without analyzing whether it is or is not a sin!), but I do think it is helpful to recognize that the enemy does present temptations in front of us, and that turning away from those temptations is a spiritual victory. If we turn away immediately - I don't think it is a sin. That said, I am not 100% confident in what makes a temptation no longer just a temptation but also a sin.

Any thoughts?



http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/sin.htm

Right.

Yes, this was a question I had in the beginning, because I was taught as a child that temptation itself was a sin. Which of course makes one wonder, since Christ was tempted.

Everything you say is true.

There is the additional difficulty of the question of which thoughts are direct attacks of the enemy and which arise out of our own sinful state. HOWEVER, I have read and agree that it is not profitable to be overly analytical about such questions, because examining sin in the mind brings one just a bit closer to coupling with it in the mind, which is the beginning of actual sin.

Forgive me if I have brought confusion into any of this.

I thought the OP's question involved taking some pleasure at the thought of sin, which ought to be confessed (IMO) - at least in private prayers and possibly with the priest.

And I think I mentioned confessing a "temptation" myself. In case that is what you are referring to - the reason I confessed is that it was truly a terrible thought. I hesitate to even call it a temptation because it was something I doubt I am even capable of if I had wanted to do it, which I did not. It repulsed me. But - being so terrible, the fact that the thought even came into my consciousness, was something the enemy taunted me with in the days between when it happened and my next confession - so I confessed it for just that reason, knowing full well this one was not my own. And it shocked the priest, I think. And thank God I had just read in some monastic text that the very same temptation was commonly given to novices and was something that scandalized them but the elders could recognize it because it was so common, and this one laughed about it. So thank God, I was prepared, and relieved of my bad feelings, because my confessor was not prepared or able to respond in that way. And the enemy was deprived of his opportunity to damage me by it.

So please forgive me. I'm not sure where the confusion came in, but you are right.

I'm still thinking about the Saint(s) who go to Confession and say, "I have murdered, I have committed adultery, I have stolen, I have borne false witness ..." and continue with a litany of sins they certainly have not committed (at least not since their last confession), and probably have not even been tempted of. I cannot really explain or understand that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

@Wryetui - maybe this quote from St John of Kronstadt might help you when dealing with this?

Oh, that is an EXCELLENT quote on the subject! Thank you for sharing!

Again, I'm very sorry if I caused any confusion. Thank you for addressing it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If a person became angry and thought that they would like to kill someone - that is a sin and needs to be confessed. But the spiritual guidance and giving of Communion and so on would be different if that person actually HAD killed someone.

Ah, I see. Yes, I did not differentiate. If a fleeting thought occurs as temptation, no, it's not a sin. I was taking it as something held in the mind, enjoyed, turned over and over, and perhaps not actually planned or executed, but savored over a period of time.

If one did that with thoughts of murder, I do think they should be confessed.

But I was trying to make the point that the Confessor needs to know if this was an actual act or just an enjoyed desire.

Forgive me.

 

[Albion]

I also have the same belief as you. But someone told me (not sure if he was episcopalian or catholic) that if you confess a sin it is forgiven no matter how many times you did it in the past, but if you do it again, the times you did it in the past "return" and you are still guilty for those times again.

It didn't make too much sense for me, but I wanted to ask your opinions because maybe I was the one who was wrong.

As a person who has been both a Roman Catholic and an Episcopalian I must say I've never heard this "slant" on the subject before, and I suspect that there's been some misunderstanding somewhere.

 

[Antony in Tx]

I think that the OP question needs to be answered with a question...does it really matter? Guilt is not the point of confession. Healing and conciliation with God is the point. If we have sinned and not approached Him for reconciliation, then we are distanced from him. If we have, but now fallen again, we are again seperated from Him by our sin and in need of salvation and healing. Confession is not a review of your "rap sheet", rather it is like going to the doctor to get well. The first thing you must do is tell Him what your symptoms and problems are before His healing can even begin to be realized in your life. Lingering over questions of "guilt" misses the point in my opinion, and is very Western in its mindset. If you linger on sin, it will eat your soul alive from within.

 

[Wryetui]

As a person who has been both a Roman Catholic and an Episcopalian I must say I've never heard this "slant" on the subject before, and I suspect that there's been some misunderstanding somewhere.

I am sorry for saying that but that wasn't related at all to the subject we are talking to, I didn't say that person said that because it was some catholic or episcopalian teaching, I just mentioned it to let it be known.

 

[Albion]

I am sorry for saying that but that wasn't related at all to the subject we are talking to, I didn't say that person said that because it was some catholic or episcopalian teaching, I just mentioned it to let it be known.

Exactly my reason for posting what I did, too.

It was just to say that I have never heard this view of the matter voiced in either a Roman Catholic or Episcopal church. That's a statement of fact. It wasn't meant as a rebuttal to anything you wrote or as an exposition of my own thinking on the issue.