The Church of Christ rises on the firm foundation of Peter's faith

[ptomwebster]

So, Christ's Body is built upon Peter?

Christ is the Rock on which the church was built; Peter was just a little stone. Remember Christ also said the wise man builds his house upon a rock the foolish man builds his house on the sand, little stones.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Christ is the Rock on which the church was built; Peter was just a little stone. Remember Christ also said the wise man builds his house upon a rock the foolish man builds his house on the sand, little stones.

You provide a very inventive way of wresting the scriptures to mean what you want them to mean. No doubt you will not be surprised that I will not follow you down the path you're travelling.

 

[Jig]

You provide a very inventive way of wresting the scriptures to mean what you want them to mean. No doubt you will not be surprised that I will not follow you down the path you're travelling.

It might just be your avatar in conjunction with your short pithy comments, but you're starting to remind me of Confucius.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It might just be your avatar in conjunction with your short pithy comments, but you're starting to remind me of Confucius.

The avatar is a character from the two films Kill Bill and Kill Bill II, he is called Pai Mei. His beard and expression amused me sufficiently to borrow his image as my avatar.

 

[Jig]

Confucius says...







(Click image to enlarge)

 

[MoreCoffee]

You might enjoy watching Pai Mei in this clip

Pai Mei the Teacher - YouTube

 

[Standing Up]

Poor Leo may have been like poor Augustine, Protestants both.

From a sermon by Saint Leo the Great, pope

The Church of Christ rises on the firm foundation of Peter's faith

Out of the whole world one man, Peter, is chosen to preside at the calling of all nations, and to be set over all the apostles and all the fathers of the Church. Though there are in God’s people many shepherds, Peter is thus appointed to rule in his own person those whom Christ also rules as the original ruler. Beloved, how great and wonderful is this sharing of his power that God in his goodness has given to this man. Whatever Christ has willed to be shared in common by Peter and the other leaders of the Church, it is only through Peter that he has given to others what he has not refused to bestow on them.

The Lord now asks the apostles as a whole what men think of him. As long as they are recounting the uncertainty born of human ignorance, their reply is always the same.

But when he presses the disciples to say what they think themselves, the first to confess his faith in the Lord is the one who is first in rank among the apostles.

Peter says: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replies: “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in heaven.” You are blessed, he means, because my Father has taught you. You have not been deceived by earthly opinion, but have been enlightened by inspiration from heaven. It was not flesh and blood that pointed me out to you, but the one whose only-begotten Son I am.

He continues: And I say to you. In other words, as my Father has revealed to you my godhead, so I in my turn make known to you your pre-eminence. You are Peter: though I am the inviolable rock, the cornerstone that makes both one, the foundation apart from which no one can lay any other, yet you also are a rock, for you are given solidity by my strength, so that which is my very own because of my power is common between us through your participation.

And upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. On this strong foundation, he says, I will build an everlasting temple. The great height of my Church, which is to penetrate the heavens, shall rise on the firm foundation of this faith.

The gates of hell shall not silence this confession of faith; the chains of death shall not bind it. Its words are the words of life. As they lift up to heaven those who profess them, so they send down to hell those who contradict them.

Blessed Peter is therefore told: To you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth is also bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.

The authority vested in this power passed also to the other apostles, and the institution established by this decree has been continued in all the leaders of the Church. But it is not without good reason that what is bestowed on all is entrusted to one. For Peter received it separately in trust because he is the prototype set before all the rulers of the Church.

Quite the mixture of true and false, hot and cold. Poor Leo says upon the confession of faith Christ builds His Church, which is true. Then poor Leo maintains the invention of some institution apart from the confession of faith, apart from the Body of Christ. He leaps from Peter's confession, from all the apostle's confession, from all believer's confession, to the idea Rome maintained some unique prototype, which is false.

As Tertullian asked, what sort of man usurps what was given to Peter alone?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Poor Leo may have been like poor Augustine, Protestants both.

Go stir somebody else's pot.

 

[Jig]

Confucius says:

Man who is stating good points should,

Go stir somebody else's pot.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Confucius says:

I see where your religion derives its wisdom.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

...unless you doubt some Catholic teachings, and many do privately, but wouldn't dare express their doubts publically...
​

This is not true. It is gratuitous conspiratorial rubbish.

Actually it is what I have found to be true in debate with many Catholics...you can call it rubbish, but it doesn't change anything.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

...
As I said from the onset, you can please yourself and take the standard RCC position...in fact as a Catholic (...) you are not your own man, and have no choice in the matter, so you are always going to prefer your chum Leo's position above any given by a non-Catholic....
​

This is just patronising rubbish.

Hardly patronising. But the fact is your hands are tied behind your back, you have to believe the standard RC teaching...and I presume the only reason you want to hear other views that challenge what Leo says is so you can express how woefully short they fall.

 

[Zeek]

Originally Posted by Zazal

...I understand what Leo said, I respect it, but I don't believe it is a correct understanding...therefore as a non-Catholic, even if I gave you the most theologically persuasive argument that the passage was about faith and not about Peter being elevated to some imaginary position, it would made no difference at all, you are tuned into Catholicism, I am not... so there is no point in arguing the toss when for you any non-Catholic contribution, however erudite will always trail in last.
​

This still does not answer the question. It's just more patronising rubbish.

There you go again...perhaps I have hit a nerve?

The thread is called:

The Church of Christ rises on the firm foundation of Peter's faith

When I read that from a Catholic two things strike me (correct me if I'm wrong)...Firstly by 'Church of Christ' you mean exclusively the RCC.
Secondly you believe the proof for this is that Jesus singled out Peter, handed him the authority to successively pass on this papal authority through candidates within the one authentic Church...eg Rome.

Still doesn't answer, but puts things into perspective from my point of view.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
When I read that from a Catholic two things strike me (correct me if I'm wrong)...Firstly by 'Church of Christ' you mean exclusively the RCC.
...

Both the title and the material in the original post are from saint Leo the Great, a pope, who died September 461 AD. He was not writing with Protestantism in mind because it didn't exist at that time. Nor was he writing with any distinction between Orthodoxy and Catholicism in mind because no such division existed at that time. He may not have had the split between Oriental Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church in mind because that split may not have materialised in his life time. So, it is very likely he was writing when there was only one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. All the divisions that matter to folk today were not in existence. The divisions that you've included in your posts did not exist. The theology behind the divisions did not exist. It was all quite different in the 5th century from what we see in the 21st century.

Cheers.

 

[miamited]

But .... why ought I to worry about what 'non-catholics' say?

Hi MC,

Well, my response to that would be: What is your goal.

If one's goal is to build a stalwart bridge that would cross a deep chasm, then it would be worthwhile to worry about what engineers might say or offer as critique. If one's goal is to overcome some sickness or disease of the body, then it would be worthwhile to consider what doctors might offer as a diagnosis. If one's goal is to build a computer for gaming, then it would be prudent to listen to those who have gone before and built such machines. If one's goal is to build a fine home for their family, then it would be wise to listen to builders and contractors who have built homes.

If one's goal is to be a Catholic, then it behooves one to listen to and give great weight to what other Catholics say and to take with a fairly large pinch of salt what those who are not Catholics might say.

But, if one's goal is to be born again. To become a child of the living God and receive His promise of eternal life, then one must listen to those who are born again and are children of the true and living God.

So, you see, friend, who one worries about considering what another might say is greatly dependent on what one's goal is.

God bless you.
IN Christ, Ted

 

[Standing Up]

Both the title and the material in the original post are from saint Leo the Great, a pope, who died September 461 AD. He was not writing with Protestantism in mind because it didn't exist at that time. Nor was he writing with any distinction between Orthodoxy and Catholicism in mind because no such division existed at that time.He may not have had the split between Oriental Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church in mind because that split may not have materialised in his life time. So, it is very likely he was writing when there was only one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. All the divisions that matter to folk today were not in existence. The divisions that you've included in your posts did not exist. The theology behind the divisions did not exist. It was all quite different in the 5th century from what we see in the 21st century.

Cheers.

Wrong. You're forgetting Polycarp, Melito, Polycrates, and others who tie directly to apostolic teaching.

Believe it was 455ad when OO split off. Right about the time Alexandria changed their view on pascha from what Polycarp, etc, taught to what Rome taught.

PS You've also neglected the martyrs of Lyons and those (Tertullian, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem) who viewed Christ as having a normal birth, rather than the ever-virgin view.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Wrong.
...

Pffft

"The schism between the Oriental Orthodox and the rest of Christendom occurred in the 5th century. The separation resulted in part from the refusal of Pope Dioscorus, Patriarch of Alexandria and the other 13 Egyptian Bishops, to accept the Christological dogmas promulgated by the Council of Chalcedon, which held that Jesus is in two natures: one divine and one human. They would accept only "of or from two natures" but not "in two natures." To the hierarchs who would lead the Oriental Orthodox, the latter phrase was tantamount to accepting Nestorianism, which expressed itself in a terminology incompatible with their understanding of Christology. Nestorianism was understood as seeing Christ in two separate natures, human and divine, each with different actions and experiences; in contrast Cyril of Alexandria advocated the formula "one nature of the Incarnate Word of God," stressing the unity of the Incarnation over all other considerations. It is not entirely clear that Nestorius himself was a Nestorian.

...

"In the years following Chalcedon the patriarchs of Constantinople intermittently remained in communion with the non-Chalcedonian patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch, Jerusalem, (see Henotikon) while Rome remained out of communion with the latter and in unstable communion with Constantinople. It was not until 518 that the new Byzantine Emperor, Justin I (who accepted Chalcedon), demanded that the Church in the Roman Empire accept the Council's decisions. Justin ordered the replacement of all non-Chalcedonian bishops, including the patriarchs of Antioch and Alexandria. The extent of the influence of the Bishop of Rome in this demand has been a matter of debate. Justinian I also attempted to bring those monks who still rejected the decision of the Council of Chalcedon into communion with the greater church. The exact time of this event is unknown, but it is believed to have been between 535 and 548. St Abraham of Farshut was summoned to Constantinople and he chose to bring with him four monks. Upon arrival, Justinian summoned them and informed them that they would either accept the decision of the Council or lose their positions. Abraham refused to entertain the idea. Theodora tried to persuade Justinian to change his mind, seemingly to no avail. Abraham himself stated in a letter to his monks that he preferred to remain in exile rather than subscribe to a faith contrary to that of Athanasius.

The schism took a while to develop, the doctrinal difference existed before the council of Chalcedon but an actual schism too some time to develop following Chalcedon.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

1 Peter 2:1-9

King James Version (KJV)

Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

The Lord's Church is not built by the hands of any man, neither is the Lords priesthood chosen by men, but rather anointed by God by way of His Holy Spirit. Just as the tabernacle we serve is not of this world, and whose house we belong is also being constructed in heaven out of living stones.

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

The Lord's Church is not built by the hands of any man, neither is the Lords priesthood chosen by men, but rather anointed by God by way of His Holy Spirit. Just as the tabernacle we serve is not of this world, and whose house we belong is also being constructed in heaven out of living stones.

Have you noticed the passage in saint John's gospel where God chooses the apostles, 'Peace to you. Just as the Father sent me, I send you.'? And how saint Matthew says, 'Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then instruct them in the practice of all I have commanded you. I'll be with you as you do this, day after day after day, right up to the end of the age.' and again saint John adds, 'If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.'?

Excellent reading for one who wants to know what God did to establish the church and to provide for her until the and of the age.

Cheers

 

[Stryder06]

Have you noticed the passage in saint John's gospel where God chooses the apostles, 'Peace to you. Just as the Father sent me, I send you.'? And how saint Matthew says, 'Go out and train everyone you meet, far and near, in this way of life, marking them by baptism in the threefold name: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then instruct them in the practice of all I have commanded you. I'll be with you as you do this, day after day after day, right up to the end of the age.' and again saint John adds, 'If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.'?

Excellent reading for one who wants to know what God did to establish the church and to provide for her until the and of the age.

Cheers

That creed extends to every believer though, so what point are you trying to make?