The church must be catholic!

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ViaCrucis

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You can read what was posted and not see that God put the tablets of stone in the ark, but what He had dictated He put outside the ark?? You think God has no purpose in what He does?

I see no reason to believe that what was written on the tablets of stone were more important than the rest of God's commandments, no. Again, you are treating this as though it's just a given. You're not actually providing a reason why the stone tablets are more important.

And it is easily countered by simply looking at what Jesus said.

If the ten commandments were the most important of God's commandments, and the other commandments are just "the law of Moses" which is not important anymore, then why does Jesus respond the way He does to the question of which is the greatest of God's commandments?

Why does Jesus say the greatest of God's commandments are Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18? You know that "Levitical law" you said doesn't matter anymore? Yeah that's what Jesus says is the greatest commandment.

So now I have this choice which I can make.

I can either believe you, even though you haven't given me a reason to believe your mere opinion on the matter; you are simply making assertions without backing them up with Scripture that actually says what you are saying. Or I can believe what God in the flesh Himself says.

And just so we're clear, I actually think that Jesus is kind of a bigger deal than stone tablets. So I'm going to go with Jesus on this one.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Albion

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And just exactly where is this Sunday worship obligation mentioned anywhere in the scriptures as an obligation instead of God's 7th day Sabbath?
I wasn't expressing my own belief there or that of my own church. Rather, I was explaining how the Catholic Church views that matter.

That was because our friend had alleged that the CC made the decision to change the Sabbath to Sunday, strictly on its own without any Scriptural basis.
 
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mmksparbud

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I see no reason to believe that what was written on the tablets of stone were more important than the rest of God's commandments, no. Again, you are treating this as though it's just a given. You're not actually providing a reason why the stone tablets are more important.

And it is easily countered by simply looking at what Jesus said.

If the ten commandments were the most important of God's commandments, and the other commandments are just "the law of Moses" which is not important anymore, then why does Jesus respond the way He does to the question of which is the greatest of God's commandments?

Why does Jesus say the greatest of God's commandments are Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18? You know that "Levitical law" you said doesn't matter anymore? Yeah that's what Jesus says is the greatest commandment.

So now I have this choice which I can make.

I can either believe you, even though you haven't given me a reason to believe your mere opinion on the matter; you are simply making assertions without backing them up with Scripture that actually says what you are saying. Or I can believe what God in the flesh Himself says.

And just so we're clear, I actually think that Jesus is kind of a bigger deal than stone tablets. So I'm going to go with Jesus on this one.

-CryptoLutheran


Really?? You think what God writes --- which has been only a couple of things---the 10, the writing on the wall, and what Jesus wrote on the ground when the Pharisees tried to stone the woman. I wonder what God thinks of your disdain for His writing. As far as history is concerned---anything handwritten by an author is always a very much prized and sought after thing---like even an autograph can go for a lot of money, a hand written manuscript by any author is worth it's weight in gold compared to a printed book---but you don't think so. I will give that all the consideration it deserves.

No you will not believe the scriptures, for that is exactly what was given to you and you refuse to believe them. I was not quoting myself but scripture. What part of those verses do you think I made up? Or are you accusing God of lying?
 
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mmksparbud

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I wasn't expressing my own belief there or that of my own church. Rather, I was explaining how the Catholic Church views that matter.

That was because our friend had alleged that the CC made the decision to change the Sabbath to Sunday, strictly on its own without any Scriptural basis.


Technically that was RCC, I think, however, did not the Eastern go along with it, for the split came after Sunday worship was instituted by the then just Catholic Church.
 
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Albion

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Technically that was RCC, I think, however, did not the Eastern go along with it, for the split came after Sunday worship was instituted by the then just Catholic Church.
The Eastern churches (Orthodox) have worshipped on Sunday for as long as the Western church (Roman Catholic).

So that would be at least a millennium before the formal split.
 
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mmksparbud

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The Eastern churches (Orthodox) have worshipped on Sunday for as long as the Western church (Roman Catholic).

So that would be at least a millennium before the formal split.

That's what I mean. They just kept the RCC Sunday instead of the 7th day Sabbath.
 
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mmksparbud

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But they didn't. The Eastern Churches are older than the Roman diocese.

OK---than why do they keep Sunday when the disciples kept the 7th day even long after the resurrection? I've only investigated the RCC, and of course the beginning of it all from Constantine. Were you after Constantine?
 
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BobRyan

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The official position of the Catholic Church is that Saturday remains the Sabbath. That is why attending Mass on Saturday is considered as fulfilling the member's Sunday worship obligation.

Catechism
2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day.98 He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."99 With compassion, Christ declares the Sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing.100 The Sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God.101 "The Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath."102

II. THE LORD'S DAY

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103

The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

Sunday - fulfillment of the sabbath

================ "The Faith Explained"


( "The Faith Explained" - page 242-243.)
(Catholic Commentary on the Catechism post Vatican II)


"we know that in the Old Testament it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord’s Day. That was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day..the early Christian church determined as the Lord’s Day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...the reason for changing the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord’s Day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-catholics who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord’s Day on the say-so of the catholic church."

OK---than why do they keep Sunday when the disciples kept the 7th day

That is the question the book "The Faith Explained" appears to be asking non-Catholics.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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That's day you go to Church right, Sunday? I am not aware of Catholics keeping the Sabbath. Also, I didn't write it, it was a quote from the Catholic church admitting there was no Biblical reference to change Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

The Roman Catholic Church does not keep the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment. Those telling you this either perhaps do not know any better or they are not being honest with you. Neither does the Roman Catholic Church teach their congregation to keep the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment. In fact the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Sunday worship replaces the requirements of God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath. Here is the official teachings from the Roman Catholic Catechism from the Vatican with direct weblink provded. Note the section specifically on "the Lords day" below. Everything provided below is from the Vatican word for word although highlights added are mine.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment

SECTION TWO

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

CHAPTER ONE

"YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND"

ARTICLE 3

THE THIRD COMMANDMENT

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work.90

The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; so the Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath.91

* I. THE SABBATH DAY

2168 The third commandment of the Decalogue recalls the holiness of the sabbath: "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD."92

2169 In speaking of the sabbath Scripture recalls creation: "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it."93

2170 Scripture also reveals in the Lord's day a memorial of Israel's liberation from bondage in Egypt: "You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out thence with mighty hand and outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day."94

2171 God entrusted the sabbath to Israel to keep as a sign of the irrevocable covenant.95 The sabbath is for the Lord, holy and set apart for the praise of God, his work of creation, and his saving actions on behalf of Israel.

2172 God's action is the model for human action. If God "rested and was refreshed" on the seventh day, man too ought to "rest" and should let others, especially the poor, "be refreshed."96 The sabbath brings everyday work to a halt and provides a respite. It is a day of protest against the servitude of work and the worship of money.97

2173 The Gospel reports many incidents when Jesus was accused of violating the sabbath law. But Jesus never fails to respect the holiness of this day.98 He gives this law its authentic and authoritative interpretation: "The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath."99 With compassion, Christ declares the sabbath for doing good rather than harm, for saving life rather than killing.100 The sabbath is the day of the Lord of mercies and a day to honor God.101 "The Son of Man is lord even of the sabbath."102

II. THE LORD'S DAY

This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103
The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:

We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

SUNDAY - FULFILLMENT OF THE SABBATH

2175 SUNDAY IS EXPRESSLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE SABBATH WHICH IT FOLLOWS CHRONOLOGICALLY EVERY WEEK; FOR CHRISTIANS ITS CEREMONIAL OBSERVANCE REPLACES THAT OF THE SABBATH. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107

Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, NO LONGER KEEPING THE SABBATH, BUT THE LORD'S DAY, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

2176 THE CELEBRATION OF SUNDAY OBSERVES THE MORAL COMMANDMENT INSCRIBED BY NATURE IN THE HUMAN HEART TO RENDER TO GOD AN OUTWARD, VISIBLE, PUBLIC, AND REGULAR WORSHIP "AS A SIGN OF HIS UNIVERSAL BENEFICENCE TO ALL."109 SUNDAY WORSHIP FULFILLS THE MORAL COMMAND OF THE OLD COVENANT, TAKING UP ITS RHYTHM AND SPIRIT IN THE WEEKLY CELEBRATION OF THE CREATOR AND REDEEMER OF HIS PEOPLE.

The Sunday Eucharist

2177 The Sunday celebration of the Lord's Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church's life. "Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the FOREMOST HOLY DAY OF OBLIGATION IN THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH."110……

A DAY OF GRACE AND REST FROM WORK

2184 JUST AS GOD "RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORK WHICH HE HAD DONE,"121 HUMAN LIFE HAS A RHYTHM OF WORK AND REST. THE INSTITUTION OF THE LORD'S DAY HELPS EVERYONE ENJOY ADEQUATE REST AND LEISURE TO CULTIVATE THEIR FAMILIAL, CULTURAL, SOCIAL, AND RELIGIOUS LIVES.122

2185 On Sundays and other holy days of obligation (note this is not a reference to the Sabbath see section below for definition), the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord's Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.123 Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest. The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health.

The charity of truth seeks holy leisure- the necessity of charity accepts just work.124

2186 Those Christians who have leisure should be mindful of their brethren who have the same needs and the same rights, yet cannot rest from work because of poverty and misery. Sunday is traditionally consecrated by Christian piety to good works and humble service of the sick, the infirm, and the elderly. Christians will also sanctify Sunday by devoting time and care to their families and relatives, often difficult to do on other days of the week. Sunday is a time for reflection, silence, cultivation of the mind, and meditation which furthers the growth of the Christian interior life.

2187 Sanctifying Sundays and holy days requires a common effort. Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day. Traditional activities (sport, restaurants, etc.), and social necessities (public services, etc.), require some people to work on Sundays, but everyone should still take care to set aside sufficient time for leisure. With temperance and charity the faithful will see to it that they avoid the excesses and violence sometimes associated with popular leisure activities. In spite of economic constraints, public authorities should ensure citizens a time intended for rest and divine worship. Employers have a similar obligation toward their employees.

2188 In respecting religious liberty and the common good of all, Christians should seek recognition of Sundays and the Church's holy days as legal holidays. They have to give everyone a public example of prayer, respect, and joy and defend their traditions as a precious contribution to the spiritual life of society. If a country's legislation or other reasons require work on Sunday, the day should nevertheless be lived as the day of our deliverance which lets us share in this "festal gathering," this "assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven."125

IN BRIEF

2189 "Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy" (Deut 5:12). "The seventh day is a sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord" (Ex 31:15).

2190 THE SABBATH, WHICH REPRESENTED THE COMPLETION OF THE FIRST CREATION, HAS BEEN REPLACED BY SUNDAY WHICH RECALLS THE NEW CREATION INAUGURATED BY THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST.

2191 The Church celebrates the day of Christ's Resurrection on the "eighth day," Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord's Day (cf. SC 106).

2192 "SUNDAY . . . IS TO BE OBSERVED AS THE FOREMOST HOLY DAY OF OBLIGATION IN THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH" (CIC, can. 1246 § 1). "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass" (CIC, can. 1247).

2193 "ON SUNDAYS AND OTHER HOLY DAYS OF OBLIGATION THE FAITHFUL ARE BOUND . . . TO ABSTAIN FROM THOSE LABORS AND BUSINESS CONCERNS WHICH IMPEDE THE WORSHIP TO BE RENDERED TO GOD, THE JOY WHICH IS PROPER TO THE LORD'S DAY, OR THE PROPER RELAXATION OF MIND AND BODY" (CIC, can. 1247).

2194 The institution of Sunday helps all "to be allowed sufficient rest and leisure to cultivate their amilial, cultural, social, and religious lives" (GS 67 § 3).

2195 Every Christian should avoid making unnecessary demands on others that would hinder them from observing the Lord's Day.

90 Ex 20:8-10; cf. Deut 5:12-15.
91 Mk 2:27-28.
92 Ex 31:15.
93 Ex 20:11.
94 Deut 5:15.
95 Cf. Ex 31:16.
96 Ex 31:17; cf. 23:12.
97 Cf. Neh 13:15-22; 2 Chr 36:21.
98 Cf. Mk 1:21; Jn 9:16.
99 Mk 2:27.
100 Cf. Mk 3:4.
101 Cf. Mt 12:5; Jn 7:23.
102 Mk 2:28.
103 Ps 118:24.
104 Cf. Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1.
105 Cf. Mk 16:1; Mt 28:1.
106 St. Justin, I Apol. 67: PG 6,429 and 432.
107 Cf. 1 Cor 10:11.
108 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. 9,1:SCh 10,88.
109 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,122,4.
110 CIC, can. 1246 § 1.
111 CIC, can. 1246 § 2: "The conference of bishops can abolish certain holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday with prior approval of the Apostolic See."

112 Cf. Acts 2:42-46; 1 Cor 11:17.
113 Heb 10:25.
114 Sermo de die dominica 2 et 6: PG 86/1,416C and 421C.
115 CIC, can. 515 § 1.
116 St. John Chrysostom, De incomprehensibili 3,6: PG 48,725.
117 CIC, can. 1247.
118 CIC, can. 1248 § 1.
119 Cf. CIC, can. 1245.
120 CIC, can. 1248 § 2.
121 Gen 2:2.
122 Cf. GS 67 § 3.
123 Cf. CIC, can. 120.
124 St. Augustine, De civ. Dei 19,19: PL 41,647.
125 Heb 12:22-23.

....................

WHAT ARE THE HOLY DAYS OF OBLIGATION BEING REFERRED TO IN THE CATECHISM ABOVE?

From CATHOLIC ANSWERS
What Are the Holy Days of Obligation?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains holy days of obligation this way:

On Sundays and other holy days of obligation, the faithful are to refrain from engaging in work or activities that hinder the worship owed to God, the joy proper to the Lord’s Day, the performance of the works of mercy, and the appropriate relaxation of mind and body.

Family needs or important social service can legitimately excuse from the obligation of Sunday rest.

The faithful should see to it that legitimate excuses do not lead to habits prejudicial to religion, family life, and health [CCC 2185].


The Code of Canon Law spells out when the holy days of obligation are on the Church’s universal calendar:


Can. 1246 §1. Sunday, on which by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated, must be observed in the universal Church as the primordial holy day of obligation. The following days must also be observed:
  • the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ,
  • the Epiphany,
  • the Ascension,
  • the Body and Blood of Christ,
  • Holy Mary the Mother of God,
  • her Immaculate Conception,
  • her Assumption,
  • Saint Joseph,
  • Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles,
  • and All Saints.
These ten are the exact holy days of obligation that are celebrated in Vatican City, but there is variation elsewhere (including in Italy). The reason is that the Code of Canon Law goes on to state:

Can. 1246 §2. With the prior approval of the Apostolic See, however, the conference of bishops can suppress some of the holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday.


Thus different countries celebrate different holy days of obligation (apart from Sunday, which they all celebrate).


The country with the fewest number of holy days of obligation seems to Hong Kong, which has only one: Christmas.


Canada has two: Christmas and Mary, Mother of God.

The United States, by contrast, has a fairly robust eight holy days of obligation, though two to three have been transferred to Sundays (depending on where you live).

The details of how the holy days in the U.S. have evolved are found here.

The details can be a little bewildering though, so here is a complete, up-to-date list of the holy days of obligation in the United States:

  • Mary, Mother of God (always celebrated January 1, but if this occurs on a Saturday or a Monday there is no obligation to go to Mass)
  • Epiphany (this has been permanently translated to the first Sunday after January 1)
  • Ascension (this is celebrated on different days depending on which ecclesiastical province you live in; a few provinces celebrate it on the traditional date, which is the Thursday of the sixth week of Easter, but most provinces in the U.S. have transferred it to the seventh Sunday of Easter.)
  • The Body and Blood of Christ (this has been permanently translated to the second Sunday after Pentecost)
  • Assumption of Mary (always celebrated August 15, but if this occurs on a Saturday or a Monday there is no obligation to go to Mass)
  • All Saints (always celebrated November 1, but if this occurs on a Saturday or a Monday there is no obligation to go to Mass)
  • Immaculate Conception of Mary (always celebrated December 8)
  • Christmas (always celebrated December 25)
There is one other wrinkle to the holy days of obligation in the United States: the state of Hawaii.

Hawaii is part of the United States, but it is located in a part of the world where most of the surrounding dioceses belong to the Conference of Bishops of the South Pacific (CEPAC).

As a result, there is a special indult for Hawaii to regulate its liturgical days in accord with the surrounding dioceses. Therefore, since 1992, Hawaii has only had two holy days of obligation (besides Sundays), which are the Immaculate Concept (Dec. 8) and Christmas (Dec. 25)

.......................

Someone's not being honest or perhaps does not know any better. The above are the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church

Hope this helps.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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"The Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath"--yes, which is why Jesus can work on the Sabbath and it is not sinful, because Christ stands ABOVE THE SABBATH AS LORD.

-CryptoLutheran

No, He never broke the Sabbath. God does not need rest. Good "works" are not prohibited to be done on the Sabbath, that is what He meant.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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No---those are the "laws contained in ordinances" that were done away with at the cross. Anything that involves blood sacrifice was done away with. Jesus is now the Sacrificial Lamb and our High Priest so He shed His blood once for all so priests are also no longer needed, we go directly to God for forgiveness.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

He does not need to shed blood ever again---ONCE

I am not arguing that point. MY point was that no one, ever, could keep ALL "613" because ALL of them were never required on any ONE person. Some were just for women, others just for priests, etc...you can only keep the commandments that apply specifically to just to you...
 
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ViaCrucis

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OK---than why do they keep Sunday when the disciples kept the 7th day even long after the resurrection?

They worship on the Lord's Day because that's what the Apostles did. The Apostles worshiped and met on Sunday, the earliest believers met together on Sunday, when the Apostles ordained bishops and presbyters for the churches everywhere they went, those bishops and presbyters continued to preach and teach and celebrate the Sacraments on the first day of the week. And they continued to do this even as the Apostles and the first generations of Christians died, and new generations of believers grew up, being raised in the same Church, in the same apostolic practice and faith. And that is why Ignatius writes in 107 AD that Christians observe the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath. It's why then in 165 AD, Justin Martyr writes that on the day the Romans called "Sunday" Christians meet together to pray together, to hear the Scriptures read, where a sermon is taught, and the Eucharist celebrated--the Liturgy. This was the practice of the Apostles, the practice of the New Testament Church, the practice of all the churches throughout the known world, from Londinium to Jerusalem to Ctesiphon. So regardless of whether you were a Christian living in Rome or a Christian living in Alexandria it didn't matter.

The entire narrative of "the big bad RCC" is entirely fiction. It is a work of fiction. You can't blame Constantine or the Pope, there is literally nothing either of them could have done that would have mattered on this matter. Christians in India who wouldn't have even had a clue who Constantine even was were gathering together on Sunday. There was no "RCC" presence in India until the Portuguese sailed to India around Africa in the 15th century.



-CryptoLutheran
 
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They worship on the Lord's Day because that's what the Apostles did. The Apostles worshiped and met on Sunday, the earliest believers met together on Sunday, when the Apostles ordained bishops and presbyters for the churches everywhere they went, those bishops and presbyters continued to preach and teach and celebrate the Sacraments on the first day of the week. And they continued to do this even as the Apostles and the first generations of Christians died, and new generations of believers grew up, being raised in the same Church, in the same apostolic practice and faith. And that is why Ignatius writes in 107 AD that Christians observe the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath. It's why then in 165 AD, Justin Martyr writes that on the day the Romans called "Sunday" Christians meet together to pray together, to hear the Scriptures read, where a sermon is taught, and the Eucharist celebrated--the Liturgy. This was the practice of the Apostles, the practice of the New Testament Church, the practice of all the churches throughout the known world, from Londinium to Jerusalem to Ctesiphon. So regardless of whether you were a Christian living in Rome or a Christian living in Alexandria it didn't matter.

The entire narrative of "the big bad RCC" is entirely fiction. It is a work of fiction. You can't blame Constantine or the Pope, there is literally nothing either of them could have done that would have mattered on this matter. Christians in India who wouldn't have even had a clue who Constantine even was were gathering together on Sunday. There was no "RCC" presence in India until the Portuguese sailed to India around Africa in the 15th century.

The reason why the Eastern Churches worship on Sunday is because that's the day Christians have always gathered for worship. From the Apostles onward.

The idea that the Apostles and the earliest Christians were gathering for church on Saturday, and not on Sunday, is a lie the Seventh Day Adventist church tells you. They are LYING to you.



Then you haven't investigated. Because Constantine had nothing to do with it. Once again, this is a lie your church is telling you. They are lying.

-CryptoLutheran

I think the confusion may be the thinking that the Sabbath is Sunday and Sunday is the Sabbath where both are a separate thing and where some are trying to connect them in the same way and that is not the case.
 
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mmksparbud

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They worship on the Lord's Day because that's what the Apostles did. The Apostles worshiped and met on Sunday, the earliest believers met together on Sunday, when the Apostles ordained bishops and presbyters for the churches everywhere they went, those bishops and presbyters continued to preach and teach and celebrate the Sacraments on the first day of the week. And they continued to do this even as the Apostles and the first generations of Christians died, and new generations of believers grew up, being raised in the same Church, in the same apostolic practice and faith. And that is why Ignatius writes in 107 AD that Christians observe the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath. It's why then in 165 AD, Justin Martyr writes that on the day the Romans called "Sunday" Christians meet together to pray together, to hear the Scriptures read, where a sermon is taught, and the Eucharist celebrated--the Liturgy. This was the practice of the Apostles, the practice of the New Testament Church, the practice of all the churches throughout the known world, from Londinium to Jerusalem to Ctesiphon. So regardless of whether you were a Christian living in Rome or a Christian living in Alexandria it didn't matter.

The entire narrative of "the big bad RCC" is entirely fiction. It is a work of fiction. You can't blame Constantine or the Pope, there is literally nothing either of them could have done that would have mattered on this matter. Christians in India who wouldn't have even had a clue who Constantine even was were gathering together on Sunday. There was no "RCC" presence in India until the Portuguese sailed to India around Africa in the 15th century.

The reason why the Eastern Churches worship on Sunday is because that's the day Christians have always gathered for worship. From the Apostles onward.

The idea that the Apostles and the earliest Christians were gathering for church on Saturday, and not on Sunday, is a lie the Seventh Day Adventist church tells you. They are LYING to you.



Then you haven't investigated. Because Constantine had nothing to do with it. Once again, this is a lie your church is telling you. They are lying.

-CryptoLutheran


LOL! History books dating from long before my church ever existed and from the Catholic church itself are not lies told by my church! Honestly, all you have to do is check history books, none of which were written by SDA's. The scriptures testify to the fact that the Apostles kept the 7th day Sabbath and it is stated up to 85 times. Yah, somes lying, it's not the scriptures, nor the history books.

The Disciples Kept the Sabbath 85 Times in Acts

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is:

"One the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."

"The Jewish wickedness" of which Xavier complained was evidently the Sabbath-keeping among those native Christians as we shall see in our next quotation. When one of these Sabbath-keeping Christians was taken by the Inquisition he was accused of having *Judaized*; which means having conformed to the ceremonies of the Mosaic Law; such as not eating pork, hare, fish without scales, of having attended the solemnization of the Sabbath." Account of the Inquisition at Goa, Dellon, p.56. London, 1815
those who observed the Sabbath were persecuted and killed by the Catholic church.
When the Jesuit St. Francis Xavier arrived in India he immediately requested to the pope to set up the Inquisition there.
"Of an hundred persons condemned to be burnt as Jews, there are scarcely four who profess that faith at their death; the rest exclaiming and protesting to their last gasp that they are Christians, and have been so during their whole lives." Ibid p.64

“They [the Protestants] deem it their duty to keep the Sunday holy. Why? Because the Catholic Church tells them to do so. They have no other reason...The observance of Sunday thus comes to be an ecclesiastical law entirely distinct from the divine law of Sabbath observance...The author of the Sunday law...is the Catholic Church.” Ecclesiastical Review, February 1914.

“The Sunday...is purely a creation of the Catholic Church.”American Catholic Quarterly Review, January 1883.

“Sunday...is the law of the Catholic Church alone...” American Sentinel (Catholic), June 1893.

“Sunday is a Catholic institution and its claim to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles...From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August 1900.

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address reported in The News, Elizabeth, New Jersey, March 18, 1903.

“The arguments...are firmly grounded on the word of God, and having been closely studied with the Bible in hand, leave no escape for the conscientious Protestant except the abandonment of Sunday worship and the return to Saturday, commanded by their teacher, the Bible, or, unwilling to abandon the tradition of the Catholic Church, which enjoins the keeping of Sunday, and which they have accepted in direct opposition to their teacher, the Bible, consistently accept her (the Catholic Church) in all her teachings. Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicism and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.” James Cardinal Gibbons, in Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.
 
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visionary

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II. THE LORD'S DAY



This is the day which the LORD has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it.103
The day of the Resurrection: the new creation

2174 Jesus rose from the dead "on the first day of the week."104 Because it is the "first day," the day of Christ's Resurrection recalls the first creation. Because it is the "eighth day" following the sabbath,105 it symbolizes the new creation ushered in by Christ's Resurrection. For Christians it has become the first of all days, the first of all feasts, the Lord's Day (he kuriake hemera, dies dominica) Sunday:



We all gather on the day of the sun, for it is the first day [after the Jewish sabbath, but also the first day] when God, separating matter from darkness, made the world; and on this same day Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead.106

103 Ps 118:24.
104 Cf. Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2; Lk 24:1; Jn 20:1.
105 Cf. Mk 16:1; Mt 28:1.
106 St. Justin, I Apol. 67:pG 6,429 and 432.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The third commandment.

Then it gets into why......

2175 Sunday is expressly distinguished from the sabbath which it follows chronologically every week; for Christians its ceremonial observance replaces that of the sabbath. In Christ's Passover, Sunday fulfills the spiritual truth of the Jewish sabbath and announces man's eternal rest in God. For worship under the Law prepared for the mystery of Christ, and what was done there prefigured some aspects of Christ:107



Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him and by his death.108

107 Cf. 1 Cor 10:11.
108 St. Ignatius of Antioch, Ad Magn. 9,1:SCh 10,88.
 
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garee

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If only you would apply this to God's Holy day and His 4th commandment, the one that starts with Remember (opposite of forget).

Exodus 20:8 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

God Bless



The rendering of the the Deuteronomy 5 version of the ten commandments has a different reasoning other than the last day. it is represented as the first day of the new calendar in the wilderness. It would seem both days first and last are used to represent the eternal rest the substance the shadow points to . We are not to judge one another in regard to shadows of ceremonial law, carnal ordinances could never make on perfect as to thier consciences they are not moral spiritual laws .

Deuteronomy5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
 
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visionary

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The rendering of the the Deuteronomy 5 version of the ten commandments has a different reasoning other than the last day. it is represented as the first day of the new calendar in the wilderness. It would seem both days first and last are used to represent the eternal rest the substance the shadow points to . We are not to judge one another in regard to shadows of ceremonial law, carnal ordinances could never make on perfect as to thier consciences they are not moral spiritual laws .

Deuteronomy5:15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.
Amazing how in Exodus, the commandment is done because He is the Creator.. and now in Deuteronomy the commandment is done because He is the Redeemer.... and then in Revelation it is back to doing it because He is the Creator...

Revelation 14:7
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
 
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