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The Church is Missing From The Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Holycanaan, Feb 13, 2002.

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  1. stratman44

    stratman44 New Member

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    This isn't in reply to the previous thread but to the topic of this post which has caused much confusion and division amongst many believers. Even at my home church.

    I wonder why people always are digging for some hidden meaning to the scriptures? It really bewilders me when someone says, "this is what that passage (really) means". Shouldn't the passage mean exactly what it says? When John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son....." Does this passage mean anything other that what it is saying? If it does "really" mean something else, then we're all in big trouble.

    How can the following passages mean anything other than Jesus will return after the great tribulation (Math 24:29) and the "elect" aren't gathered until (Math 24:31).

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet , and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    And these also.......

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump : for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


    I understand why pre-tribulation "theory" is so popular. These are going to be some very troubled times ahead, and they are closing fast. Our first instinct is to find a way to "get the heck outta here!" Even if it means manipulating scripture to ease our fears. But if we're walking as we should with God, He will deliver us right in the midst of it all. Out of the lions den, the firey furnace, and as "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee."
    Hallelujah!
     
  2. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

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    Camaro540-Patrick
    You say the tribulation is the wrath of the devil and not of God. The following is what I have discovered.
    First, who brings the wrath against the world, is it the devil or is it God? Did we sin against the devil or did we sin against God?
    Secondly, the word “wrath” appears in the Old Testament over 120 times. The majority refers to the wrath of God.
    The other times refers to the wrath of people against other people. The same word “wrath” appears in the New Testament 47 times. Out of those 47, one refers to the wrath of the devil (Rev 12:12) two other times refers to the “wrath of her fornication (Rev14:8, 18:3. One or two other references refer to the wrath of people against other people.

    So, 42 times refers to the wrath of God as opposed to only once to the wrath of the devil. 41 times
    Are during the Tribulation while the last time of God’s wrath is at the end of the Millennium.

    Sure, I know that the devil will be furious when he is thrown out of heaven (Rev 12:13-17). I also, know that the persecution of the Tribulation Saints (Not the Church) during this time will make the other 10 persecutions from Domitian 81AD to Diocletian 284AD look like a picnic. I don’t worry too much about the devil’s wrath, however, I do worry about my God’s wrath for my disobedience. <><
     
  3. berol06

    berol06 Dedicated Christian

    35
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    Just a note on why there is so much controversy in biblical meanings:

    I think part of the problem with the "this passage really means" syndrome is that many of the Greek words can actually mean more than one thing depending on where they are used, how they are used grammatically (i.e. past tense, present tense, etc.) and a couple of other parameters will define exactly which way the translation should read.

    In some passages, there is nor can there be any debate, such as John 3:16 (at least I know of no debates on this one).

    We also get into bible translations (I'm KJV) and when exactly do we define the words as the meaning of words today are not the same as they were in 1611, or the early 1900's for that matter.

    What about the one-verse wonders, which take literally what the verse specifically without referring to the context for which it is used - this also adds confusion (but the actual verse says!).

    That is just the tip of the iceberg as to the difficulty in what the verses really mean. I agree with you, it would be nice if we could take every word as it is written.

    I do know for certain, there are two things one best know from the bible: one must be born again, or prepare for hell, and every one will face God in judgement one day.

    I must state here so as not to appear the hypocrite, that I am one who defines what the bible says as I tear down, (and/or explain) the alleged bible contradictions/inaccuracies that I receive. I believe that there are absolutely no errors in the KJV of God's Word; God's Word is perfect.
     
  4. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

    84
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    ~~berol06~~
    I agree with you totally~ Many people do not know Greek and consequently we mistranslate or misread Bible passages. For instance, 2Thes. 2:2~~Where it says "falling away" I misunderstood that to mean apostasy. Which to me it meant falling away from belief. To my joy, I found that "falling away" or apostasy means to depart or separation from. So what this passage means is ~ To be separated to God which goes in conjunction with 1Thes. 4:17. Where it says we are caught up, which means in Greek--harpazo-which means to be snatched. In order for us to understand more fully the Bible we must really examine scripture to its fullest. We must be aware that at times it is very difficult to translate one language into another. Especially, when it comes to two very difficult languages--English & Greek. For example, even in Spanish, we do not have such a thing as, "I fall in love." To us to fall in love is just plain stupid. <><
     
  5. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Two notes:

    1. The reference to "falling away" is 2 Thes. 2:3.

    2. What is your source for understanding that APOSTASIA refers to the rapture? What you suggest does not come from the Greek.
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
    Pentecostal
    Married
    >>When John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son....." Does this passage mean anything other that what it is saying? If it does "really" mean something else, then we're all in big trouble.

    The problem with John 3:16 is how you understand the word "believe". If you keep reading the passage though verse 22 you will see that a true believer in Jesus Christ walks in the light and their "deeds" are done in God. Those who walk in darkness, those who gratify the desires of the flesh and the old fallen nature are not true believers.

    2 Cor. 5:17
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
     
  7. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
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    I would like to offer this suggestion. Much scripture has been quoted to PROVE, that the rapture occurs just before the 2nd coming. It needs no explanation to me. All of the explaining has to do with fitting pretrib rapture into scripture.
    I pray that you read rev over again in one reading.
    REv.6:11-16 is the same as 16:18-20.
    The 144,000 are the same group, not 2.
    rev11 is the ressurection of the dead(11:11) followed by our rapture aT THE last trump(11:15)as described in 1cor.15:51-52.
    you cannot ignore that, change it, or interpret it. If you have your mind made up that the rapture is before the trib then you cannot understand 1Cor. 15:51-52 or see it fullfilled in rev11:11&15.
    AS to a previous question, rev 19 is the same as rev 14:14-20, explained in more detail. Rev 14:14 also shows the 2nd coming.
    The 1st 3 books of revelation tell the story of the church past, present & future, including during the trib. Chapters 4 thru 11 show the tribulation through the 2nd coming. After CHapter 11, john is given more DETAIL of those events already mentioned thru chptr 11. please read it again with an open mind. in prayer.
    start with 1 Cor.15:51-52. then read rev 11:11&15.
    In Jesus' name I hope we are all blessed. debbie
     
  8. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    Messianic
    I agree Debbie

    I really pray that people stop listening to false pasters/teachers/prophets/ect. And really get alone with our
    Father, and pray/study/pray/study/ect.

    Just think about this for a second, okay?

    Lets just suppose, just maybe, others are right, and this pre-trib
    rapture happens. Then those of us who believe it won't will be
    raptured right along with all those that believe it will happen. If
    there's one thing everyone should know, it's that we know the
    our Father truely knows our hearts, and will He rapture those who
    truely love Him anyway.

    Now, let's suppose just for a minute, come on, that there is no
    pre-trib rapture. What will you do? Do you think that at the
    moment
    you realize what has happened, (if you even do realize) your
    going to just make up your mind to hang in there untill the end?Do you think that all this false teaching you've injested is going to
    get you through?

    Anti-Christ is going to come as if he were Jesus, and fool all those
    who have followed all this false teaching for so many years. He is
    going to preform many unbelievable signs/wonders before the
    site of men, and they are all going to believe he is the christ. It's
    not going to be all chaos like most believe.... At least, not at first.
    But sooner or later, he's (satan) going to have to deal with all of
    us who know who he truely is, and then you will see chaos like
    you've never seen, it will be daughter against mother, and Father
    against son, just as Jesus has taught.

    I pray that the Holy Spirit opens eye's to this simple truth....

    Patrick
     
  9. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    Christian
    > ...Rev.19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection. (The rapture
    > is not mentioned because it does not happen at the second
    > coming.)...

    Some believe the rapture and 2nd coming must be different because there's no rapture in Revelation 19. But note that John doesn't mention the "gathering together" or "catching up" of the rapture in any of his writings, but in Revelation 19 he clearly shows Jesus coming. Both Jesus and Paul said the rapture will happen at Jesus' coming (Matthew 24:29-37, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:23), and there's no 3rd coming of Jesus. Do some believe Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 are different comings of Jesus?

    The Bible says the resurrection occurs immediately before the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17), when Christ comes (1 Corinthians 15:23) at the trumpet's sounding (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Jesus comes at the trumpet's sounding in Matthew 24:29-31.


    > ...The Known And Unknown Days...

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    Here I believe Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30), that is, his 2nd coming. I don't believe he taught a 3rd coming.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense).


    > ...the Tribulation Saints will be taken up to heaven and these
    > are NOT part of the church...

    Why are the "saints" in Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12 not considered to be the church, but the "saints" in Revelation 19:8, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 1:12, Jude 3 are?


    > ...Why is the Church NOT mentioned in those chapters...

    Some would require the specific word "church" to be used to describe the Christians in the tribulation before they would consider them to be part of the church. But some NT books don't have "church" in them anywhere: 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Do some then believe these books don't refer to the church?


    > ...His church will meet Jesus in the air when He calls her up.
    > Therefore, He does not actually touch the earth...

    I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a U-turn coming of Jesus whereby he comes only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

    1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  10. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

    84
    +0
    ~~Debbie~~

    We, my husband and I, have read over Revelations, and we are going over it again even in greater detail than ever before. Our eyes have been opened up to so many new things. I am sorry but I just do not see the way you see. As far as the 144,000, we used to believe that it was just one group too until we saw the differences between the two of them. The first group is Jews taken from the 12 Tribes of Israel. They have the seal of God on their foreheads. This group is on the earth. The other group, 144,000 Rev. 14:1-5 These are not Jews ONLY but a combination of different nations for the Bible says that they were redeemed from among men. They appear in heaven as Martyrs.

    In Reference to Rev. 11:11-15- is talking about the Two Witnesses being killed, resurrected and ascending up to heaven in a cloud. NOT THE CHURCH. The Spirit of God enters these two witnesses; they are supernaturally resurrected, and “they ascended up to heaven in a cloud.” They experience a personal rapture here. God is showing His supremacy over anything that anti-christ can do.

    The trumpet of 1Cor.15:51-52 which is the rapture, shall not be confused with the “Last” trumpet of the seven trumpets which follows the seven seals. They are an entirely two different incidents. This should not be confused with the trumpet judgments of Revelation 9, but is the last trumpet for the Church. When Christ is finished preparing His Father’s house as He promised (John 14:1-3) He will call all believers (both dead and living) with the blast of the trumpet. They will suddenly receive their resurrected and incorruptible bodies and be raptured to the Father’s house, long before the seven trumpet judgments come.

    Ok, I have been reading 2Thes.2:1-3--I need some explanations from you guys out there~~~It reads “Now we beseech you brethren by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto Him, 2nd verse That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled, either by Spirit, nor by word, nor by letter from us, as that day of Christ is at hand. ~Question~ What does “that day” mean? To me it means, the second coming of Jesus. 3rd verse Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first ~~~ Question ~~ What does falling away mean? Falling away from what and from where? To me it means to depart. ~~ Verse 3 continued ~~ and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

    Basically it means to me that before the second coming of Christ the rapture will take place before the appearance of the anti-christ. Because, if the anti-christ appears in the middle of the Tribulation then where is he at during the beginning of the tribulation. <><
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    > ..."A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy
    > right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee."...

    I believe some faithful Christians will be kept from the tribulation (Revelation 3:10) by fleeing to a place prepared (Revelation 12:6), where they will be protected from harm (Revelation 12:14-16). There must be a remnant of Christians who are still "alive and remain" at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes to gather them together (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Mark 13:26-27).

    But some faithful Christians will be tried in tribulation unto death (Revelation 2:10-11). They will suffer and die in the war, famine, natural disaster, and persecution of the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), just as faithful Christians have been allowed to suffer and die in these things throughout history (Acts 14:22).


    > ..."falling away" or apostasy means to depart...

    Note that apostasia (2 Thessalonians 2:3) isn't used in the Bible or in other ancient Greek literature to refer to people departing from a physical location, but is used in the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (for example, Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and in the New Testament (Acts 21:21) to refer to people departing from their religion. Look at its primary definition and you will see why: "defection, revolt, especially in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy."


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  12. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    > ...the last trumpet for the Church...

    What were the earlier trumpets for the Church? And why would Paul call the "last trumpet" last if there was to be another resurrection trumpet sounded for others in the church after the last one?

    I believe the resurrection and changing of all Christians into their immortal bodies will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23), and that this is why it says "the first resurrection" will also include all of us Christians who will die in the tribulation (Revelation 20:4-5).

    I believe the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture would require that the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) be the 2nd, that the 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28) be the 3rd, and that the last trump (1 Corinthians 15:52) be the 9th from last (Revelation 8:6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture.


    > ...When Christ is finished preparing His Father’s house as He
    > promised (John 14:1-3) He will call all believers (both dead and
    > living) with the blast of the trumpet. They will suddenly receive
    > their resurrected and incorruptible bodies and be raptured to
    > the Father’s house...

    Some believe the rapture must be pre-trib and must take us all the way into heaven because of John 14:1-3. But note that there Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself." He didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

    He said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He says nothing about his making a U-turn back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millenium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

    I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millenium (Revelation 21:1-3).


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  13. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    It might help to step back for a moment and look at what is the first step in interpreting the Bible (or any literature). Here are a few helpful questions. (I only answered the first one, because it is obvious.)

    1. To whom did John write the Revelation?
    Answer: 1st century Christians.

    2. How would the 1st century Christians have understood this writing?

    3. Would a pre-trib rapture have meant anything to them as they suffered (even death, and often vicious) at the hands of Romans (and others)?

    4. Would a pre-trib interpretation have been a comfort for them in their circumstances?

    5. Would a post-trib or amil interpretation meant anything to these 1st century Christians as they suffered?

    6. Would a post-trib or amil interpretation provide comfort for them as they suffered?
     
  14. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    Holycannan, I understand exactly what you & your husband are going through. I've been there. But I can tell that you are listening to one thing that is wrong from some one who claims such I have also read: "That The 7th trumpet is not the last trumpet referred to in 1Cor. 15." There is no scripture to back that up. REv. refers to 7 trumps, so the last one is the 7th one. It is simple.
    Furthermore, to say that the resurrection of the dead 2 prophets, just before the last trump for the alive Christians, is a personal rapture of 2 separate individuals is also not scriptural. These are both "ASSUMPTIONS" to deny the scriptural fact. Let loose of preconcieved notions & read it literally & it all makes perfect sense.
    "falling away" throughout the Bible refers to backslidden Christians. There are plenty of those now. Falling away from the TRUTH, falling away from the WORD of GOD. Occurs now. Look at all the false doctrine.
    If the antichrist doesn't appear until the middle of the trib,(takes control of one world gov't), the CHristians will still know who he is before then.That's why God gave us clues in HIS WORD. The rest of the world WON'T know who he is. KIng JUan Carlos has fit the description since Spain joined the EUropean Common Market in 1988 as the 11 nation. Right now he is involved in the peace talks of Israel. It may not be him, but we will know for sure soon. The unChristian will not have a clue.
    Rev. 20:4-6 says that the trib saints are in heaven(dead) because they did not recieve the mark of the beast in their hand & forehead, they were CHristians, they "WILL LIVE & reign with CHrist a 1000 yrs", THE REST OF THE DEAD WON'T RISE AGAIN UNTIL AFTER THE 1000 YRS, "THIS IS THE 1ST RESURRECTION", THEY WILL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS"
    If you believe this scripture is true, that those who reign with Christ 1000 yrs are those who died because they refused the mark, and they are part of the 1st resurrection(dead in CHrist shall rise first) rapture, then you are not of a pre trib rapture belief.
    NOw if the 2 witnesses are yet another personal rapture, then the pretrib saints are also millions of other personal raptures. BUt verse 5 says,"this is the first resurrection". There is only one, & it includes those who refused the mark.
    Those who become believers after the rapture are not resurrected until after the 1000 year reign. So how is it that the trib saints reign with Christ & are resurrected in the 1st resurrection if the rapture occurs BEFORE THE TRIBULATION EVER STARTS?
    Either REV.20:4-6 is a lie, or there is no pre trib rapture of the dead in Christ.
     
  15. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

    84
    +0
    ~~Debbie~~

    First of all, I want to say that I do like your name. My first daughter’s name is Debbie also. Second, I do want to thank you for taking the time out and writing all that you did. I still believe that I will not be here when the Tribulation finally comes. I do know that I will definitely be here during the beginning of the birth pangs, of which we are just beginning to be in. There is so much in today’s Old world that is happening even now as I type this. It is just so mind boggling to see all of the terrible things transpiring in the news and I am sure that there are so many other things that we do not hear in the news that is taking place.

    Even if I am wrong and I am still here during the Tribulation~~My Lord is still my Lord and ALWAYS will be!! No matter what!! He is the ONLY way for there is NO other God but Him!!

    I ran across a little saying that I have placed into my Bible--It is called the RULE For Bible Interpretation~~ “When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense.

    Your Sister In Christ,
     
  16. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

    504
    +0
    To my sister in Christ Holy canaan, God bless you. You are so right we only need the Holy Spirit to enlighten us in the word.
    I am also my mother's first daughter. My mother's name is Phyllis.
    lol. true.Hey is that you Mom? God bless.
     
  17. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

    84
    +0
    ~~Debbie~~

    You sure helped to make my day! I just cannot believe the coincidences. I just laughed my little head off upon reading your reply!

    Not too often do I hear of something like this happening. They say God has a sense of humor. I do believe it.

    I do know for sure, since we both have Christ in our hearts, that we will both be with each other for eternity. Isn’t that an awesome thought!

    “Big” Sis In Christ, Or should I say “Mom?” ;)
     
  18. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Are you sure you two aren't mother and daughter? LOL :p :) :D
     
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