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The Church is Missing From The Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Holycanaan, Feb 13, 2002.

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  1. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

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    Revelation 4-19
    In the first three chapters of Revelation, there are constant references to the church and to the Seven Churches. However, starting at Chapter 4, verse 1, where John is told to "come up here," the church is obviously absent throughout the Tribulation period. The expression "come up here" does mean leaving the earth in Revelation 11:12 where the translation of the Two Witnesses takes place. (I am not suggesting that the rapture takes place in chapter 11, only that the same expression, used there, does mean virtually the same thing for the Two Witnesses that the Rapture does to the church.)

    There are numerous references to believers in these chapters, but they are not called the church. What might be called the church on the earth during this time is the apostate shell of nominal Christianity, which has lost its true believers, and has joined with other religions of the world to become a "United Religion," which, in turn will give its power to Antichrist. This apostate church is pictured as a prostitute riding the beast in Revelation 18.

    Finally, the absence of the church will undoubtedly account for the lawlessness spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
     
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  2. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    Messianic
    2Th 2:3

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not
    come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin
    be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Are you saying that we will see the rise of the Anti-Christ just
    before the church is taken up to Christ?

    Patrick
     
  3. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

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    No, By NO MEANS did I mean to say what you have suggested. I will say, without a doubt, That the Church of God will NEVER see the anti-christ nor the Tribulation!
     
  4. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    Amen Phyllis.
     
  5. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
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    Messianic
    I see.....

    That day shall NOT COME except there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Doesn't that say without doubt that the son of perdition shall
    come first?

    I don't understand?

    Please explain?

    Patrick
     
  6. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

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    Praise The Lord!! I noticed that you are from Israel. Are you an American in Israel or are you a true blue Isralie Christian?

    I am an American and my husband is a Mexican American. We both made a trip to Canaan of Galilee for the sole purpose of getting married at the church where the first miracle was performed by Jesus. That was eleven years ago.
    <>< Just a little bit of side info.
     
  7. edjones

    edjones Active Member

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    No just a friend of Israel. sorry,
    ed

    ......................................................................

    2 Thessalonians 2
    1
    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2
    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3
    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4
    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    5
    Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    6
    And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    7
    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8
    And then shall that Wicked be revealed
    , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9
    Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    10
    And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11
    And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12
    That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
    13
    But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
    14
    Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    15
    Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
    16
    Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
    17
    Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
     
  8. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

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    Messianic
    Thats exactly what I'm saying Ed.....
     
  9. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    CAmaro is right, read the scripture again, we have to identify certainly the son of perdition before the rapture according to scripture. Verse 7 is not referring to the bride(church) as a "he". Neither is "he" capitalized, it is not the Holy Spirit.
    REv is written firstly as a letter to churches. After that, the vision is described. REv 11 describes the dead in Christ rising first(2 dead prophets), then the 'LAST TRUMP', which is our cue.
    see 1 cor 15:51-52.
    "Behold I show you a mystery... in the moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
    rev 11 is when the rapture of the church occurs or either 1 cor 15 is wrong & so is thess. etc.
     
  10. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

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    Please let me explain to you what 2Thessalonians 2:3 says.

    A brief sequence of events are: The reason why the anti-christ does not appear at the present time is because the Church or the Bride of Jesus is indwelt by the Holy Spirit here on earth, and is withholding the appearance of the anti-christ. Some one said that when the truth departs from the earth because of the rapture, the lie prevails and spiritual darkness will rule the earth. Being that, the Church has been raptured, the devil is free to do whatever he wants. By indwelt, it means that the Holy Spirit comes into the body of the person who accepts Him. Before Jesus came to the world the Holy Spirit of God was in the world and He directed the activities of His people. After Jesus' birth the Holy Spirit can come into the body of the person who accepts Him. During the Tribulation the Holy Spirit will be just as He was before the first coming of Jesus Christ. By that I mean that the Holy Spirit and God will be in heaven with His church, however, miraculously He will also be on earth but will not indwell Himself in people. That is the reason why the people of the Tribulation will have a much harder time to accept Jesus or to convert.

    2 Thes 2:6-9
    6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (right now the church
    is holding back the appearance of the anti-Christ)
    7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken
    out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
    and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders
    2 Thes 2:3
    3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a
    falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


    Falling away in Greek means departure or to be taken away. So, what does verse 3 mean? What it says is this ....that the man of sin will be revealed after the rapture. Read verse 8, its says And then shall that Wicked be revealed. If there is a "then" then there must be a before. That~ before action, is the Rapture of the church of God. So, the bottom line is that the anti-christ will be revealed after the rapture. Right after the Rapture the anti-christ will make himself known where in turn Israel will sign a peace treaty with him and the Tribulation will start.
     
  11. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    The Holy Spirit "until he be taken out of the way" is referring to the Holy Spirit no longer "letteth". There is definitely a "falling away" from the church today.
    That day shall not come until the son of man be revealed.

    I have to consider from other passages as well, that the Holy SPirit will allow us brethren to identify the antichrist without him being revealed to the world. These descriptions of the antichrist in the Bible are not for his followers to identify him.
     
  12. slm

    slm New Member

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    I don't see where the Body of Christ will not be present on earth during the great tribulation. Jesus is only coming back one more time. If He were to come back to pick up the Body before the great tribulation and then come back again when the anti-christ sets himself on the holy of holies (Jerusalem), then wouldn't that make it 2 more times Jesus is to return? He's only coming back one more time to put an end to the anti-christ. At this same time, and only then will He catch up the Body of Christ.

    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


    If the "elect" are to be taken away before the great tribulation who would be left to lead the unsaved to salvation? Obviously the above verses show that the "elect" are still present.

    This time of the great tribulation will be one of God's most glorious showings on the earth of His Power and Salvation through the Body of Christ.
     
  13. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

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    It seems to me that you are a bit mixed up in the two more times of Jesus' coming, which is the wrong thinking. When Jesus comes down to gather His church at the Rapture, Jesus will not set foot on earth. He will meet or call His Church and meet them in the air. On His second coming which is at the end of the Tribulation, then Jesus will set His feet upon Mt. Zion. Therefore, logically, it stands to reason that He will only come One more time. 1Thessalonians 4:16-17

    1Thessalonians 5:9 makes it clear that God has not "appointed us to wrath" (the Tribulation) but to "obtain salvation," or deliverance from it. Since so many saints will be martyred during the Tribulation, there will be few (if any) alive at the glorious appearing of Christ. This promise cannot mean, then, that He will deliver believers during the time of wrath, for the saints who live through the Tribulation will not be delivered; in fact, most will be martyred. To be delivered out of it, the church will have to be raptured before it begins.

    Since the Tribulation is especially the time of God's wrath, and since Christians are not appointed to wrath then it follows that the church will be raptured before the Tribulation. In short, the Rapture occurs before the Tribulation, while the glorious appearing occurs after it.
     
  14. camaro540

    camaro540 Regular Member

    318
    +0
    Messianic
    Please understand, and I pray the Holy Spirit brings this
    to your understanding.

    The tribulation is satans wrath, not Gods.
    Gods wrath does not come until after the tribulation.
    At that time we will be protected from the wrath of
    God. He's not angry with those who choose to listen
    to His truth, only with those who choose to follow
    mans ways, and beliefs, and those who choose to whore
    after the beast.

    Patrick
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    > ...Chapter 4, verse 1, where John is told to "come up here..."

    Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.


    > ...the church is obviously absent throughout the Tribulation...

    We find Christians referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:1-4, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4). There can be no Christians outside of the church, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).


    > ...they are not called the church...

    Some would require the specific word "church" to be used to describe the Christians in the tribulation before they would consider them to be part of the church. But some NT books don't have "church" in them anywhere: 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Do some then believe these books don't refer to the church?

    How could saints living after the cross and after Pentecost who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body?


    > ...the Church of God will NEVER see the anti-christ nor the
    > Tribulation!...

    Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).


    > ...For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who
    > now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way...

    The one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can't be the church because Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).


    > ...During the Tribulation the Holy Spirit will be just as He was
    > before the first coming of Jesus Christ...

    Where does the Bible teach this? How could saints living after the cross and after Pentecost who have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not have the Spirit? "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).


    > ...Falling away in Greek means departure...

    The Greek word for "falling away" is apostasia. It means apostasy. I believe Paul is referring to the same departure from the faith that he refers to in 1 Timothy 4:1 and which Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:10-12.

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse 8). I believe Paul is referring to the same coming and gathering together as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe Paul taught a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.

    Some say apostasia can also refer to a physical departure. But apostasia (2 Thessalonians 2:3) isn't used in the Bible or in other ancient Greek literature to refer to people departing from a physical location, but is used in the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (for example, Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and in the New Testament (Acts 21:21) to refer to people departing from their religion. Look at its primary definition and you will see why: "defection, revolt, especially in religious sense, rebellion against God, apostasy."


    > ...When Jesus comes down to gather His church at the Rapture,
    > Jesus will not set foot on earth...

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a U-turn coming of Jesus whereby he comes only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

    1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.


    > ...1Thessalonians 5:9 makes it clear that God has
    > not "appointed us to wrath" (the Tribulation) but to "obtain
    > salvation,"...

    Here Paul refers to a form of God's wrath which is completely opposed to salvation, that is, those who obtain salvation can in no way be appointed to this form of God's wrath. Because there are many who obtain salvation who are in the tribulation, this form of wrath cannot be the tribulation.

    The word "wrath" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is the Greek word orge, which is used in the NT to refer to the entire spectrum of the forms of God's wrath, from a single angry look by Jesus: "He had looked round about on them with anger (orge)" (Mark 3:5), to the eternal horror of the lake of fire: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge); and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11). If we who are believers do wrong, I believe Jesus can still look angrily at us without our losing our salvation: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" (Revelation 3:19); and I believe we believers can go through the entire tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4) without losing our salvation, for nothing we experience on this earth, no suffering or death of any kind, can rob us of our eternal life in Christ (Romans 8:35-39) and our complete deliverance from the wrath of the lake of fire (Revelation 14:10), to which all unbelievers are appointed (John 3:36).


    > ...the Tribulation is especially the time of God's wrath...

    Note that nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

    The vials contain God's wrath, yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).


    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  16. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    I find it important for Christians to realize that a post trib person does not say that we will suffer God's wrath. Persons of little faith could be confused & dismayed when they see we don't get raptured at the beginning. (NOt referring to mature CHristians on here.)
    REV proves that the church is here during the "GREAT TRIBULATION" see rev:2:22 where He tells the church he will cast them into the great tribulation if they don't repent. The church members who repent of another church are told in rev3:3 that if they don't watch, he will come on them as a thief. The next verse says that some of them will be "clothed in white" these are the trib saints. So if you don't realize you are living thru the trib while you are, you will be in danger. 3:12 tells the church that He will write His name upon them that overcometh" (who don't take the mark).
    Read the letters to the churches. They will be here, but will not suffer God's wrath & will be HIs saints, properly marked & clothed, if they repent, watch, & overcome.
    If there was a 3rd coming we would have been told. The excuse that HIs feet don't actually touch the ground is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture.
    WE meet HIm in the air just as He is coming down to destroy them & we are changed in the twinkling of an eye to help Him destroy them.
     
  17. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

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    I can see that we are butting heads right and left here. Some of us are post trib and others pre trib. All I can say is that we will ALL know the real truth one of these days soon!! Until then may God help us ALL. The main thing is that we ALL have received Christ into our hearts as our Lord and Savior.
    I am adding just a little bit more information to whoever wants to read it.

    Here are more proofs of the Pre Tribulation Rapture~~~
    One-Rev.19:11-21 does not mention a resurrection. (The rapture is not mentioned because it does not happen at the second coming.)
    Two-Zec. 14:1-15 does not mention a resurrection(Again there is no mention of the resurrection.)
    Three-The Known And Unknown Days~~~~
    We know that we don't know when the Rapture takes place. But we do know when the second coming of Jesus takes place and that's right after the Tribulation. There is no mention of the Rapture taking place during this time, however, it does mention that the Tribulation Saints will be taken up to heaven and these are NOT part of the church.

    Fourth-When the heavens open up again that is to let the Army's of God out of heaven. Which the Army's include His raptured church (time unknown), Tribulation Saints and all of His Angels to do battle against the anti-christ. The word Church is mentioned 22 times in Revelation 1-3 but NOT mentioned again until Revelation 22:17. Why is the Church NOT mentioned in those chapters? Because the Church is NOT here any longer.
     
  18. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

    84
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    Debbie,
    In reference to your quotation above----Can you explain to me what 1Thess. 4:17 means, "To meet the Lord in the air and so shall we be ever with the Lord." To me this means, that His church will meet Jesus in the air when He calls her up. Therefore, He does not actually touch the earth. On the other hand read, Zech 14:4. It says "His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives which is before Jerusalem etc. "
    Can you please tell me, what is the time period of He standing on the Mount of Olives? To me the time period is the beginning of the Millineum.

    His first coming was His birth. When the Church is Raptured before the Tribulation, it is not His coming to earth at all. Not until He comes and stands on the Mount of Olives is His second coming. Example: If you live in New York and I live in Los Angeles, and I had the power to call you to meet me in Texas, does that mean that I went all the way to New York to fetch you? Of course not, we met in between. That is what Jesus and His church are going to do, they will meet between heaven and earth in the air. So actually, there are ONLY two comings of Jesus. :eek:) <><
     
  19. Holycanaan

    Holycanaan New Member

    84
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  20. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    And some are amillennial. In terms of this discussion about the "church" as the people of God enduring the great tribulation, amil's and post-trib's are fairly close.
     
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