The Church in Heaven, Answer to "Post-trib"

franky67

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Revelation 13 describes the beast, anti-christ, blaspheming God and His raptured church in verses 5 and 6 these verses describe the tabernacle , that is those who dwell in heaven

This agrees with the verses in 2 Thess. 2:6 where the apostacy is revealed after the restrainer is taken away, ie, the church.

All this happens before the return of Christ to earth and the church with Him.
 

Faulty

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1 Corinthians 15:22-23 also clearly states all who belong to Christ meet him when he comes. Not some here and there, but all together in one event, which cant be pretrib if people are saved during the trib

If a city bus comes to a stop and all the awaiting passengers board the bus and the bus drives away, does that mean there can not be any further passengers when the same bus comes around again to the same stop? According to this logic, that would indeed be the case.

There are believers now and they will be taken. Then there will be more believers after that. Yes, it most certainly can be pre-trib.
 
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Pretrib is another delusion by the modern church to make christianity look appealing. "You want to miss out on all the craziness? Pray this prayer and youll get to watch the festivities from heaven."

Jesus does say to pray always to be counted worthy to escape the coming time of tribulation and stand before him instead (Lk 21:36)

And He does mention keeping the church out of the time of tribulation coming on those dwelling on the earth (Rev 3:10)

Even on the OT has a section which tells of a resurrection of first the dead, then the living, to be gathered by the Lord prior to His wrath over the whole earth, for the purpose of keeping them safe (Isaiah 26:19-21)
Resurrection of the dead: Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead.

The gathering of the living: Come, my people

The escape of the coming wrath of God upon the entire earth: enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.

Yes, the rapture is in the OT. Paul's revealed mystery was not new information, but new understanding of already revealed information.
 
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franky67

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1 Corinthians 15:22-23 also clearly states all who belong to Christ meet him when he comes. Not some here and there, but all together in one event, which cant be pretrib if people are saved during the trib

Yes, people ARE saved during the tribulation, those who were left behind during the pre trib rapture.

Revelation 7:9-14

These verses very clearly describe the ones who come out of the great tribulation
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Yes, people ARE saved during the tribulation, those who were left behind during the pre trib rapture.

Revelation 7:9-14

These verses very clearly describe the ones who come out of the great tribulation

Yes out of, not kept from...

If I take pennies out of a piggy bank, that means they were in the piggy bank.

Err go if someone comes out of the tribulation, that means they were in it to begin with...

People like to use the whole, God is no respecter of persons thing in regards to healing, etc but not the rapture for some reason. If God loves his children so much that he wants to protect them from the tribulation, then it would violate his nature to then require more of his children (those saved during) to go through the very thing he pulled the first group away from. You don't see the inconsistency of such a stance? Anyone saved during the tribulation would be as much a child of God as you and me. If God is going to protect us from the tribulation, he will them too, so swinging us away last minute before things kick off would violate his nature.

NOT to mention, such a pretrib stance would have to include such scriptures as Romans 11:25 or Jeremiah 30:7. So if the Gentile church is rapture pretrib (fullness of the Gentiles, meaning no more allowed), then ONLY Jews could be saved during the tribulation. If "the time of Jacob's trouble" is indeed the tribulation, then that should also mean only Jews (Jacob's children) are troubled, no Gentiles. BUTTTTT in Revelation 7 it says that those who come out of the tribulation were from every tribe, tongue, and nation, not just Jews.

Hmmm
 
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franky67

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Yes out of, not kept from...

If I take pennies out of a piggy bank, that means they were in the piggy bank.

Err go if someone comes out of the tribulation, that means they were in it to begin with...

People like to use the whole, God is no respecter of persons thing in regards to healing, etc but not the rapture for some reason. If God loves his children so much that he wants to protect them from the tribulation, then it would violate his nature to then require more of his children (those saved during) to go through the very thing he pulled the first group away from. You don't see the inconsistency of such a stance? Anyone saved during the tribulation would be as much a child of God as you and me. If God is going to protect us from the tribulation, he will them too, so swinging us away last minute before things kick off would violate his nature.

NOT to mention, such a pretrib stance would have to include such scriptures as Romans 11:25 or Jeremiah 30:7. So if the Gentile church is rapture pretrib (fullness of the Gentiles, meaning no more allowed), then ONLY Jews could be saved during the tribulation. If "the time of Jacob's trouble" is indeed the tribulation, then that should also mean only Jews (Jacob's children) are troubled, no Gentiles. BUTTTTT in Revelation 7 it says that those who come out of the tribulation were from every tribe, tongue, and nation, not just Jews.

Hmmm

What you seem to miss here is that at the rapture , the church, the dead in Christ, and the Christians who are living will be caught up to meet the Lord. Before the anti-christ is revealed, 2 Thess Ch 2

The ones left behind will be those who did not know the Lord before, but realized their mistake, and THEN became saved, and refused the mark of the beast, and were killed. THESE are the ones asked about in Heaven with the words, "who are these".

Rev 7:9-17 The are from every tribe and nation, they are newly saved.

I know you won't revise your beliefs, and neither will I .

I am really nearly 90 years old, and I have prayed for the truth to be revealed to me for many years.

God Bless You my Brother
 
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ByTheSpirit

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What you seem to miss here is that at the rapture , the church, the dead in Christ, and the Christians who are living will be caught up to meet the Lord. Before the anti-christ is revealed, 2 Thess Ch 2

The ones left behind will be those who did not know the Lord before, but realized their mistake, and THEN became saved, and refused the mark of the beast, and were killed. THESE are the ones asked about in Heaven with the words, "who are these".

Rev 7:9-17 The are from every tribe and nation, they are newly saved.

I know you won't revise your beliefs, and neither will I .

I am really nearly 90 years old, and I have prayed for the truth to be revealed to me for many years.

God Bless You my Brother

That's fair, I mean the rapture isn't a doctrine that precludes people from Heaven. I do believe it's important we know the whole truth and not parts of it, but I do agree: I am not changing my mind on this. I haven't been around nearly as long as you have and you have probably studied the scriptures longer than I've drawn breath, but that doesn't automatically make you right and me wrong. Remember, the Jews of the 1st century knew the scriptures inside and out and still the majority of them missed out on realizing who Jesus was as He walked among them. So the whole, I've prayed and studied longer than you stand doesn't mean a whole lot. But again, we can cordially agree to disagree on the subject. :) May the Father bless you too!
 
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murjahel

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PROOFS THE RAPTURE IS BEFORE THE TRIBULATION

1. No mention of the church is made in connection with the tribulation. Only Israel and nations are mentioned.

2. The promise to the church at Philadelphia (which represents the revived church of the last days) states:
"I will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth."
Rev.3:10

3. The tribulation is a time of God's wrath on an apostate church, a backslidden Israel, and an ungodly world. Believers are "not appointed unto wrath."
(I Thess. 5:9)

4. We are to be "delivered from the wrath to come." (I Thess.1:10)

5.Types in the Bible
Enoch--raptured before the flood
Lot and his family--delivered before the judgment on Sodom

6. In Revelation 4:1, the "Come up hither." represents the rapture. Following that - the church is seen in heaven with crowns on their heads--which Paul said would be received on the day of the rapture. Following the rapture day scene of Rev. 4 & 5, the tribulation starts in chapter 6.

7.Greek words used to describe the rapture:

harpadzo =caught away by force out of harm's way
ekphugein = to escape clean away from a person or condition
apolutrosis = to take unto oneself a valued object that was paid for in full earlier
optomai = appear

Some have said that if we would search we will find no history of the teaching in the early church record. They say that it did not exist until the 1830's. But that is not true.

Let us examine some early church writings.


Justin Martyr 100 A.D.-
" The man of apostasy shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians."
(Trypho, cx)

This is true, for many will be saved during the tribulation, after the rapture of the church, they are called the ‘tribulation saints...” So this statement does not teach against Pre-trib rapture. It confirms that after the rapture, there will still be many come to Jesus.

The Pastor(Shepherd)of Hermas 150 A.D.-
"Happy ye are who endure the great tribulation that is coming."
(Vision Second)
" Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire,
will be purified by means of it… Wherefore, cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is yet to come."
(Vision Fourth)

This passage is often used by those who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Yet, remember that the early church was going through great tribulations when they wrote this. The Roman rule was causing many to be burnt upon crosses, crucified upon crosses, thrown to lions, imprisoned, scourgings with 39 stripes, beheaded, etc. So when they spoke of enduring tribulations, they meant the tribulations in which they were currently. Note that they also said “‘this then is the type of the great tribulation that is yet to come.” They knew another, greater tribulation was still to come, but only the tribulations they were currently in would be the ones they endured before the coming of the Lord.

Irenaeus 130 A.D.- " And they (the ten kings) shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight."
(Against Heresies, V, 26, 1)

Where two or three are gathered in His name, is a church. Therefore, after the rapture of the church in a pre-trib rapture, there can be a ‘church’ of tribulation saints which will endure some tribulation before being killed. So mention of a ‘church’ in the tribulation is still consistent with pre-tribulation teaching.

There is currently an apostasy, and a great falling away, perilous times, and much tribulation upon saints in areas of this world. We are already seeing trials galore. Yet, this is not the 7 year tribulation spoken of in Revelation and Daniel. We may find some in China, where many die due to their Christian faith, may think they are already in the tribulation. In the early church, some in Thessalonica thought they were in the tribulation and had missed the rapture, so Paul wrote His epistles to correct their thinking.

Hermas.....
There is an interesting paragraph in the Shepherd of Hermas, that shows that the early church spoke of tribulations often, for they were going through many. Still, they also knew of a separate tribulation, through which they believed the church would not pass.

Hermas tells us that he passed by a wild beast and met a virgin who saluted him saying... Hail O man.!
He returned the greeting... Lady, hail!
Then she asked... Has nothing crossed your path?
Hermas replied...
I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord and His great mercy, I escaped from it...
The virgin said... Well, did you escape from it, because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than His great and glorious name? You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. God therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be free and spotless in serving the Lord blamelessly.”
Hermas, The Shepherd of Hermas, Book I, fourth, ch. ii, also ch. iii)

This shows that the teaching was definitely in the early church, of a pre-trib rapture. The teaching of the pre-trib rapture was not added in 1830, as some try to claim, but in that time, there was a restoration of the doctrine that had been lost when the church apostatized in the dark ages. The church lost not only the pre-trib rapture doctrine, but had also lost the doctrine of salvation by faith, not works. The church had became powerful feeling, and persecuted the world for a time. Instead of wanting an escape of the tribulation of judgment from God on this world, they tried to judge the unsaved themselves. This was a time a restoration of doctrines of ‘salvation by faith, not works’ needed to be done, and a restoration of the ignored doctrine of the rapture needed done. So, the revival of the doctrines occurred in that time period.

The journey is almost over.

We will soon be met by Jesus in the clouds, and finish the trip with Him. He has finished our heavenly mansions, He has prepared a great supper. We have rewards to receive at the judgment seat of Christ, we have robes to put on. There will be a great reunion reception in the throne room of God, described in Revelation 4 and 5, where we will shout the victory for completion of our gospel road travel.

The twenty four elders, representing the 24 divisions of the heavenly priesthood all have crowns on their heads in Rev. 4 and 5. Paul clearly teaches that no saint, not even him, would get their crown until the rapture time. The tribulation starts in Rev. 6 -19, so the rapture day in heaven, described in Revelation 4 and 5, indicates a pre-trib rapture.

During the time when the tribulation occurs on earth, the judgment of believers will take some time in heaven. There will be the passing out of rewards. The marriage supper of the Lamb, the opening of the New Jerusalem, will also take some time. If we went up to the clouds, and then immediately come back to rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years, when would those things occur?

The gospel road trip to heaven, is almost finished. We are soon to arrive at our chosen destination.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Another scriptural proof against the pretrib rapture:

waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (Titus‬ 2‬:13‬ ESV)

the APPEARING of Jesus is our blessed hope, not the silent secret coming which doesn't exist. This verse describes the awesome, sky splitting appearing we expect to happen when Jesus comes again, but where many go astray is they say the pretrib rapture is the blessed hope. the pretrib rapture can not be the blessed hope as it is supposed to be a secret coming upon the clouds. Paul (and others) writes (in more than one place I should add) that THE APPEARING of the GLORY of God and Jesus is the blessed hope.


and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thessalonians‬ 1‬:7-8‬ ESV)
 
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Setsurinvuch

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PROOFS THE RAPTURE IS BEFORE THE TRIBULATION

1. No mention of the church is made in connection with the tribulation. Only Israel and nations are mentioned.

2. The promise to the church at Philadelphia (which represents the revived church of the last days) states:
"I will keep thee from the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth."
Rev.3:10

3. The tribulation is a time of God's wrath on an apostate church, a backslidden Israel, and an ungodly world. Believers are "not appointed unto wrath."
(I Thess. 5:9)

4. We are to be "delivered from the wrath to come." (I Thess.1:10)

5.Types in the Bible
Enoch--raptured before the flood
Lot and his family--delivered before the judgment on Sodom

6. In Revelation 4:1, the "Come up hither." represents the rapture. Following that - the church is seen in heaven with crowns on their heads--which Paul said would be received on the day of the rapture. Following the rapture day scene of Rev. 4 & 5, the tribulation starts in chapter 6.

7.Greek words used to describe the rapture:

harpadzo =caught away by force out of harm's way
ekphugein = to escape clean away from a person or condition
apolutrosis = to take unto oneself a valued object that was paid for in full earlier
optomai = appear

Some have said that if we would search we will find no history of the teaching in the early church record. They say that it did not exist until the 1830's. But that is not true.

Let us examine some early church writings.


Justin Martyr 100 A.D.-
" The man of apostasy shall venture to do unlawful deeds on earth against us the Christians."
(Trypho, cx)

This is true, for many will be saved during the tribulation, after the rapture of the church, they are called the ‘tribulation saints...” So this statement does not teach against Pre-trib rapture. It confirms that after the rapture, there will still be many come to Jesus.

The Pastor(Shepherd)of Hermas 150 A.D.-
"Happy ye are who endure the great tribulation that is coming."
(Vision Second)
" Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire,
will be purified by means of it… Wherefore, cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is yet to come."
(Vision Fourth)

This passage is often used by those who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. Yet, remember that the early church was going through great tribulations when they wrote this. The Roman rule was causing many to be burnt upon crosses, crucified upon crosses, thrown to lions, imprisoned, scourgings with 39 stripes, beheaded, etc. So when they spoke of enduring tribulations, they meant the tribulations in which they were currently. Note that they also said “‘this then is the type of the great tribulation that is yet to come.” They knew another, greater tribulation was still to come, but only the tribulations they were currently in would be the ones they endured before the coming of the Lord.

Irenaeus 130 A.D.- " And they (the ten kings) shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight."
(Against Heresies, V, 26, 1)

Where two or three are gathered in His name, is a church. Therefore, after the rapture of the church in a pre-trib rapture, there can be a ‘church’ of tribulation saints which will endure some tribulation before being killed. So mention of a ‘church’ in the tribulation is still consistent with pre-tribulation teaching.

There is currently an apostasy, and a great falling away, perilous times, and much tribulation upon saints in areas of this world. We are already seeing trials galore. Yet, this is not the 7 year tribulation spoken of in Revelation and Daniel. We may find some in China, where many die due to their Christian faith, may think they are already in the tribulation. In the early church, some in Thessalonica thought they were in the tribulation and had missed the rapture, so Paul wrote His epistles to correct their thinking.

Hermas.....
There is an interesting paragraph in the Shepherd of Hermas, that shows that the early church spoke of tribulations often, for they were going through many. Still, they also knew of a separate tribulation, through which they believed the church would not pass.

Hermas tells us that he passed by a wild beast and met a virgin who saluted him saying... Hail O man.!
He returned the greeting... Lady, hail!
Then she asked... Has nothing crossed your path?
Hermas replied...
I was met by a beast of such a size that it could destroy peoples, but through the power of the Lord and His great mercy, I escaped from it...
The virgin said... Well, did you escape from it, because you cast your care on God, and opened your heart to the Lord, believing that you can be saved by no other than His great and glorious name? You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. God therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be free and spotless in serving the Lord blamelessly.”
Hermas, The Shepherd of Hermas, Book I, fourth, ch. ii, also ch. iii)

This shows that the teaching was definitely in the early church, of a pre-trib rapture. The teaching of the pre-trib rapture was not added in 1830, as some try to claim, but in that time, there was a restoration of the doctrine that had been lost when the church apostatized in the dark ages. The church lost not only the pre-trib rapture doctrine, but had also lost the doctrine of salvation by faith, not works. The church had became powerful feeling, and persecuted the world for a time. Instead of wanting an escape of the tribulation of judgment from God on this world, they tried to judge the unsaved themselves. This was a time a restoration of doctrines of ‘salvation by faith, not works’ needed to be done, and a restoration of the ignored doctrine of the rapture needed done. So, the revival of the doctrines occurred in that time period.

The journey is almost over.

We will soon be met by Jesus in the clouds, and finish the trip with Him. He has finished our heavenly mansions, He has prepared a great supper. We have rewards to receive at the judgment seat of Christ, we have robes to put on. There will be a great reunion reception in the throne room of God, described in Revelation 4 and 5, where we will shout the victory for completion of our gospel road travel.

The twenty four elders, representing the 24 divisions of the heavenly priesthood all have crowns on their heads in Rev. 4 and 5. Paul clearly teaches that no saint, not even him, would get their crown until the rapture time. The tribulation starts in Rev. 6 -19, so the rapture day in heaven, described in Revelation 4 and 5, indicates a pre-trib rapture.

During the time when the tribulation occurs on earth, the judgment of believers will take some time in heaven. There will be the passing out of rewards. The marriage supper of the Lamb, the opening of the New Jerusalem, will also take some time. If we went up to the clouds, and then immediately come back to rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years, when would those things occur?

The gospel road trip to heaven, is almost finished. We are soon to arrive at our chosen destination.

Ok this was so bad I had to reply. NONE of the Christians you mentioned taught pre trib. You are forcing a pre trib into their statements the worst treatment was the one you did on the shepherd of hermas. He talks about a great tribulation to come but nowhere in the writing of the early Christians do they claim a separate tribulation they will not be a part of!
 
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Alithis

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I think your wording “a part of“ is poor..
But I agree over all.
Noah was kept apart from the judgment while being right in the midst of it.
Ok this was so bad I had to reply. NONE of the Christians you mentioned taught pre trib. You are forcing a pre trib into their statements the worst treatment was the one you did on the shepherd of hermas. He talks about a great tribulation to come but nowhere in the writing of the early Christians do they claim a separate tribulation they will not be a part of!
 
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