The Church: Doctrinal disunity or unity?

sculleywr

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Having read through the first part of another thread, I realized that the biggest problem we have that caused people to look elsewhere is the very obvious division in the Church. I, myself, have brought it up several times in various topics.

So the question I put up is: Is the Church established as a physical reality with real doctrinal and practical unity? Or was the Church established as independent congregations with a loose governmental structure in which agreement was not as important as mutual respect?

Please, give actual support to your statement.
 
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There was, from the beginning, a certain level of flexibility regarding doctrinal unity. For example, the issue of regarding sabbaths, festivals, and new moons was addressed by Paul in Colossians. His inspired position was that if one wishes to observe these days one is free to do so and if one does not, he is equally free. Likewise, the issue of eating meat offered to idols was addressed by Paul in Romans.

The difficulty comes in determining exactly how much flexibility God intends for His church. We all have ideas regarding the significance of doctrine and all of us here at CF agree with the Nicene creed as representing core Christian doctrine. Beyond the Creed various denominations add other doctrines as being essential for unity. For example, the perpetual virginity of Mary is essential to the Catholic Church, but to no other denomination even though some, such as the EO, do believe it. Does it really matter that we believe that we know the precise sex life of another individual as a matter of our salvation? I think not, but Catholics disagree very sincerely and dogmatically.
 
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Nova Scotian Boy

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Although i dont have much time to comment. I would say the Church was established as a physical reality with real doctrinal and practical unity?

I would say the council of Jurasalem shows that a unity of beliefs was strove for.

15 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question. 3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.[a] 4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them. 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.”

12 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,

16 “‘After this I will return,
and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;
I will rebuild its ruins,
and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by my name,
says the Lord, who makes these things 18 known from of old.’
19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers

22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, 23 with the following letter: “The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers[c] who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. 24 Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you[d] with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, 25 it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

30 So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch, and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31 And when they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32 And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, encouraged and strengthened the brothers with many words. 33 And after they had spent some time, they were sent off in peace by the brothers to those who had sent them.[e] 35 But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

Paul and Barnabas Separate

36 And after some days Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us return and visit the brothers in every city where we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are.” 37 Now Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark. 38 But Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. 39 And there arose a sharp disagreement, so that they separated from each other. Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus, 40 but Paul chose Silas and departed, having been commended by the brothers to the grace of the Lord. 41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches. - Act 15
 
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Optimax

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The Body of Christ which is made up of born again people was established as a spiritual reality with real doctrinal and practical unity.

Man formed religious organizations called churches established on more of man's tradition than from God.

Hence there is very little unity.
 
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Albion

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Having read through the first part of another thread, I realized that the biggest problem we have that caused people to look elsewhere is the very obvious division in the Church. I, myself, have brought it up several times in various topics.

So the question I put up is: Is the Church established as a physical reality with real doctrinal and practical unity? Or was the Church established as independent congregations with a loose governmental structure in which agreement was not as important as mutual respect?

This ^, although I think there's a lot to what Nova Scotian Boy said. My view is that it began as described above--of necessity--but sought a degree of doctrinal unity very early on.
 
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sculleywr

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This ^, although I think there's a lot to what Nova Scotian Boy said. My view is that it began as described above--of necessity--but sought a degree of doctrinal unity very early on.

Would you actually provide scriptural evidence? Like Paul, who was not of the twelve. Why was he able to command the Romans, a church which he had no hand in before the letter we have? Why was it that when a problem occurred in doctrines in Galatia, the church there bowed to the will of the Church in Jerusalem? In fact, the council in Jerusalem was followed by ALL of the Church (Acts 15), the second Council in Antioch was likewise followed in all of the Church (Galatians 2).

If it wasn't one united Church, then there would be no reason for the council in Jerusalem to have any sway over the rest of the Church.
 
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sculleywr

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The Body of Christ which is made up of born again people was established as a spiritual reality with real doctrinal and practical unity.

Man formed religious organizations called churches established on more of man's tradition than from God.

Hence there is very little unity.

Then why did the disunity not really show up until centuries later?
 
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Optimax

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Then why did the disunity not really show up until centuries later?

Actually disunity was showing up early!

Example:

1 Cor 1:12-13

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
KJV
:)
 
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bling

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There is perfect unity where Christ is the head. Christ working through the indwelling Holy Spirit in every Christian and not just a few leaders. Some Christians may look to other “humans” for guidance because they have been taught that way, are inexperienced, quench the Spirit, or are just not Christians yet with the Spirit.

In a family you show flexibility because not everyone is the same and need individual attention, but if you’re going to try and control a large group of people you need lots of ridged rules and no flexibility concerning the disobeying of those rules.

Right now as we live the underground church in China is growing the fastest of any Christian group (est. at 100 million) yet they have no earthly central organization, the average size is est. at 20 people, they are all totally independent of each other, and from all we can tell follow the same “doctrine” of New Testament Christianity only. It “helps” that there are no paid positions and severe persecution.
 
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sculleywr

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Actually disunity was showing up early!

Example:

1 Cor 1:12-13

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
KJV
:)

yes. Small pieces of division over small issues. However, history shows that for centuries, there was one Church that was united, despite the attacks of heretics.
 
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Optimax

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yes. Small pieces of division over small issues. However, history shows that for centuries, there was one Church that was united, despite the attacks of heretics.


OK, go ahead and tell us the real reason for the thread.

What church was unified for "centuries"?

Let me guess what your answer will be.;)

I would say....... Eastern-Orthodox!:p

:)
 
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Albion

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Actually disunity was showing up early!

Of course that's true. Some Christians are stuck on the notion that the church is a club rather than a movement. As a result they think unity is defined solely by whether or not we all carry the same membership card.
 
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sculleywr

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OK, go ahead and tell us the real reason for the thread.

What church was unified for "centuries"?

Let me guess what your answer will be.;)

I would say....... Eastern-Orthodox!:p

:)

The first Church. It showed unity through the centuries.
 
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sculleywr

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Of course that's true. Some Christians are stuck on the notion that the church is a club rather than a movement. As a result they think unity is defined solely by whether or not we all carry the same membership card.

Some are struck by the idea that God did not suddenly change His modus operandi. You know? Keeping the fullness of the truth available for all to see? He did that for...what was it...2000 years? Wasn't there always a place where the full truth of how to worship God was available in the history recorded in Scripture?
 
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Albion

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Some are struck by the idea that God did not suddenly change His modus operandi. You know? Keeping the fullness of the truth available for all to see? He did that for...what was it...2000 years? Wasn't there always a place where the full truth of how to worship God was available in the history recorded in Scripture?

The idea that there is any denomination that has alwyas been totally correct on every doctrinal matter is self-satisfying and a matter of denominational pride. But of course it's not true. Only God is always right.
 
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sculleywr

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The idea that there is any denomination that has alwyas been totally correct on every doctrinal matter is self-satisfying and a matter of denominational pride. But of course it's not true. Only God is always right.

No, it is a matter of the idea that god could and DID preserve the FULL truth in a place we can find it. Either that, or I need a new religion altogether.

I will not trust in a god who hated us so much that He not only allows confusion, but made it impossible to defeat confusion.
 
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sculleywr

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The idea that there is any denomination that has alwyas been totally correct on every doctrinal matter is self-satisfying and a matter of denominational pride. But of course it's not true. Only God is always right.

Besides, if that is true, then what is the point. If there is no ability to obtain the whole truth on earth, why not just eat, drink, and be merry? It doesn't matter because your truth is just as valid as my truth. And it doesn't matter that they are completely irreconcilable with eachother. What matters is that we be false friends in our communion with God which is based on a false knowledge of Who He is.
 
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Albion

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No, it is a matter of the idea that god could and DID preserve the FULL truth in a place we can find it. Either that, or I need a new religion altogether.

I've already answered that for you. The Bible is his word. It is reliable or nothing in this life is! It is timeless. Repair to it at any time in history and the path back to truth is there.

I will not trust in a god who hated us so much that He not only allows confusion, but made it impossible to defeat confusion.

What do you think the consequences of the Fall were??

Man was created in a wonderful state. Adam and Eve fumbled it away--with many unfortunate consequences that we all now are forced, as their descendents, to endure. We are NOT perfect. We are NOT sinless. We are NOT all-wise. We, therefore, needed a Savior. You and I, years later, have a new start because of the cross and have the script right there in the Bible...if we'll only stop thinking that we mortals are the masters of our own fate.
 
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Albion

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Besides, if that is true, then what is the point. If there is no ability to obtain the whole truth on earth, why not just eat, drink, and be merry?

I didn't say anything about the truth being unavailable. What I said is that it is not the private possession of any one denomination and that any church can make mistakes.

It doesn't matter because your truth is just as valid as my truth.

I didn't say anything about truth being relative.
 
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