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The Church and the Messianic movement

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Christie insb, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Your link did not work. Can I assume by your alarm that it claimed the churches need to obey all the commandments?

    It all depends on what you mean by grafted into Israel, doesn't it? Different Messianics mean different things by it. There are some here who agree. BUT the two main MJ denominations do NOT mean that the churches need to be Israel and observe Jewish law. Commonwealth of Israel, yes. But Israel itself, no.

    What all Messianics agree on, though, is that the Church made a mistake of prohibiting the observance of the law, and made a mistake in the forced Gentilization of Jews. There are Gentiles here who WANT to observe the Law, and there is no reason why they shouldn't if that's what they choose. Further, just as Acts 15 states that Gentiles should not be forced to become Jews, it is also wrong to force Jews to become Gentiles and give up Jewish ways.

    It's not that we think Torah is necessary for salvation -- we believe in salvation by grace the same as any Christian does. But for us, observing Torah is a great means towards sanctification. We would never give it up!! :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  2. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your reply, Open Heart. I think it was Tampasteve who posted the correct link: Statement Of Faith

    I don't think the Law is his big thing. It's more about the Church took some wrong turns early on and that there is some other group of believers who are the real "ekklesia.". That's another thing that bugs me. When people use a non-traditional term for something that has a common term and act like they are special because they came up with this term. Anyway. My biggest litmus test with is who they say Jesus is. I am not crazy about Messianic who don't accept the doctrine of the Trinity either. But we never really went there.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2017
  3. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    The website IS a "Hebrew Roots" website, so yes it is pro-Law and anti-Church. However, I didn't see anything anti-Church on the particular page link you gave me and couldn't find one on the site with a cursory look around. I'm sure if I got into the articles it might be in there.
     
  4. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    22 The English word "Church" comes originally from the Old English word KIRKE. The Old English word KIRKE was the word the Anglo- Saxons used to refer to their pagan places of worship. When they became Christianized the Anglo-Saxons continued to call their places of worship KIRKES and as the language evolved "Churches". You may have heard that the word "Church" originally referred to the people and later came to refer to the building. This is not true. The word "Church" originally referred to the building and later came to refer to the people. Moreover the word "church" is of pagan origin. The Greek word that appears where our English Bible's have "church" is EKKLESIA. EKKLESIA is just the Greek word for "assembly". Although it comes from a root meaning "to call out" there is no special theological significance to this word. In fact this is the same Greek word which was used for "assembly" by the classical Pagan Greek writers. Inscriptions in ancient Greek auditoriums where pagan ritual dramas were performed by the Bacchus cult have the audience section inscribed with the sign "EKKLESIA". There are also many places where the Greek word EKKLESIA appears in the Renewed Covenant but which the KJV and other translators did not translate the word as "church". This same Greek word is even used in Acts 19:32-41 to describe an unruly mob. There is therefore no such thing as the "church" because the Greek word translated "church" does not mean "church" at all but “assembly". The "Church" as most Christians have understood it never existed. All of the passages people have thought were talking about the "Church" were actually talking about the Assembly of Yisrael, not Christianity, but the Nazarene sect of Judaism. Yisrael is the allegorical "Body of Messiah". In the TaNaK Yisrael is commonly called "The Assembly of Yisrael" and wherever the phrase "The Assembly of Yisrael" appears in the TaNaK the Greek LXX has "EKKLESIA of Yisrael". Here's a quotation from Fossilized Customs: The Pagan Sources of Popular Customs by Lew White (p.100): “The Old English word was CIRICE, and you will see it spelled CHIRCHE written above many old "church" entrances throughout England. This is from the West Germanic KIRIKA, which is based on the Greek deity's name, CIRCE. Circe was famous among Pagans for turning men into pigs, or other animals, using drugs.” Any encyclopedia, or dictionary of mythology, will reveal who Circe was. She was the goddess-daughter of Helios, the Sun-deity! Again, another form of Sun-worship, this time the name of the daughter of the Sun-deity, had become mixed with the Messianic Belief.”

    (The Greatest Deception ever $old, Rabbi Edward L. Nydle/Levi bar Ido Pg. 14,15)
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
  5. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    Yes, what you are quoting is in some ways similar to his ideas. I don't think Circe had that much to do with the early church; it was a translation decision, not a religious one.


    But what bothers me is that I don't believe God ever abandoned His church, or whatever term you want to use for the Bride of Christ. This is foundational for my faith, even more important than the Trinity.
     
  6. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The correct translation is "Congregation" or Assembly."
     
  7. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Or church.
     
  8. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    "Congregation" or "Assembly" is less religious sounding and has less baggage.
     
  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    A church was a Roman voting place.
     
  10. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Still is!!! :)
     
  11. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Oh please.
     
  12. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    It only has the baggage you personally attach. Whatever else it has, it deserves, and assembly doesn't get you away from it. I have no problems with it sounding religious, as serving God is a religious thing to do.
     
  13. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    The word "Church" is not in scripture.

    The word "Assembly and Congregation" are INTERPRETATED as Church. Now what do you think of that?

    If you will take notice, the word Church is not used in the Old Testament. The word Ekklesia is used 114 times, and mostly as an INTERPRETATION for Church and a few times as Assembly or Congregation. The word Church is an INTERPRETATION were as Assembly or Congregation would be a TRANSLATION.

    The ecclesia or ekklesia was the principal assembly of the democracy of ancient Athens during its Golden Age (480-404 BCE). It was a gathering place for politicians and voters. This is the word used in most English versions as a rendering of the New Testament's Greek word ekklesia. Ekklesia really means "a calling out", a meeting or a gathering. Ekklesia is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew qahal, which means an assembly or a congregation. Neither ekklesia nor qahal means a building.

    Tyndale, in his translation, uniformly translated ekklesia as "congregation" and only used the word "'churches" to translate Acts 19:37 for heathen temples! Where then did the word "church", come from?
    Ecclesiastical sources give the origin as kuriakon or kyriakon in Greek. However to accept this, one has to stretch your imagination in an attempt to see any resemblance. Also, because kuriakon means a building (the house of Kurios=Lords), and not a gathering or meeting of people, as the words ekklesia and qahal imply, therefore this explanation can only be regarded as distorted, even if it is true.

    Our common dictionaries, however, are honest in revealing to us the true origin. They all trace the word back to its Old English or Anglo-Saxon root, namely circe. And what is the origin of circe? Any encyclopedia, or dictionary of mythology, will reveal who Circe was. She was the goddess daughter of Helios, the Sun deity! Again, another form of Sun worship, this time the daughter of the Sun deity had become mixed with the Christian Faith.

    Some interesting facts emerge from the study of the word circe. The word is related to "circus", "circle", "circuit", "Circean", "circulate", and the various words starting with circum". The Latin pronunciation could have been "sirke" or "sirse". The Old English word circe may have been pronounced similarly to "kirke", or even "sirse".

    However, Circe was in fact originally a Greek goddess where her name was written as: Kirke, and pronounced as such. The word "church" is known in Scotland as kirk, and in German as Kirche and in Netherlands as kerk. These words show their direct derivation from the Greek Kirke even better than the English "church". However, even the Old English circe for "church", reveals its origin.

    Let us rather use the Scriptural "Assembly" or "Congregation", and renounce the word that is derived from Circe, the daughter of the Sun deity which is worshiped even today on the day of the Sun, Sunday!

    This is what the point of this subject is: Many Christians place the importance of a "Church" as the only means of salvation, when in fact it is the believers themselves that are The Body of Christ.

    Salvation is obtained by your keeping of God's precepts and Commandments in addition to the testamony of Yahshua. And that is what scripture says. That is The New Covenant.
    The True Church is the "congregation" of believers.
    A Church is a building for public gatherings of various sorts. Where ever the true believers assemble, that is the congregation.

    And again like I have said before, the word church is an interpretation for the words Assembly and Congregation. For example, the Catholic Church has said that salvation can only be found through the Catholic Church.
     
  14. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Congregational Body of Believers

    Romans 12:5

    so in Christ we, though many, form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

    1 Corinthians 10:17

    Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

    1 Corinthians 12:13

    For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

    1 Corinthians 12:27

    Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

    Ephesians 3:6

    This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
     
  15. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Many Christians place the importance of a "Church" as the only means of salvation, when in fact it is the believers themselves that are The Body of Christ. Salvation is obtained by your keeping of God's precept and Commandments in addition to the testimony of Yahshua. And that is what scripture says. That is The New Covenant. The True Church is the "congregation" of believers. A Chuch is a building for public gatherings of various sorts. Where ever the true believers assemble, that is the congregation. And again like I have said before, the word church is an interpretation for the words Assembly and congregation. For example, the Catholic Church say that salvation can only be found through the Catholic Church. And that is why you see the interpretation church given in the bible.

    Cath was the sun goddess of the Etruscans in Italy.

    Ignatius of Antioch

    A letter written by Ignatius to Christians in Smyrna around 106 A.D. is the earliest surviving witness to the use of the term Catholic Church
     
  16. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    Catholics Claim "Keys" To Heaven

    The Catholic Church claims That Peter passed on the keys to the gates of Heaven, and that no one can enter into God’s presence unless that Catholic Church opens the gates. The word "Cardinal" means "hinge." The Cardinals of the Roman Church are the “hinges” upon which the “gate,” whom is the Pope, is able to open.

    [12th century. Via French < Latin cardinalis < cardin- "hinge"]



    NASB
    Mat 4:18
    Now as Jesus [Yahshua] was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers, Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.

    Simon already had the nick name [Peter/Rock] before Yahshua met him. Therefore Yahshua did not name him Rock, but was only calling him by his nick name. That would mean that Yahshua was speaking of the Father being that Rock, which is used often in scriptures.



    The Vatican cave was a Mithraeum: a temple of the Roman God Mithras

    "The cave of the Vatican belonged to Mithra until 376 A.D., when a city prefect suppressed the cult of the rival Savior and seized the shrine in the name of Christ, on the very birthday of the pagan god, December 25."
    Barbara G. Walker (The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets)

    Paul says, 'They drank from that spiritual rock and that rock was Christ' (I Cor. 10:4).

    These are identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ.

    The Vatican hill in Rome that is regarded as sacred to Peter, the Christian rock, was already sacred to Mithra. Many Mithraic remains have been found there. The merging of the worship of Attis into that of Mithra, then later into that of Jesus, was effected almost without interruption.


    The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You to Read (various authors)

    The throne in the Vatican Mithraeum, upon which the Pater Patrum ("Father of Fathers", the head priest of Mithraism) was customarily seated, was also taken. It is now the throne of St. Peter, though it is adorned by Mithraic carvings and is older than the later Vatican Church. Seated upon it now is the Bishop of Rome, also known as the Pope (from Papa meaning father, late vulgarization of Latin Pater).

    Christian Bishops of Rome pre-empted the Mithraic high priest's title of Pater Patrum, which became Papa, or Pope.

    "oracles" that breathed the fumes from fumaroles of volcanoes before pontificating.

    "'The oracle of Delphi functioned in a specific place, the adyton, or "no entry" area of the temple's core, and through a specific person, the Pythia, who was chosen to speak, as a possessed medium, for Apollo, the god of prophecy."

    The temple was constructed over an area of rock in which there were fissures and cracks leading from a deep cavern; the fissures allowed vapors of gases contained in an underground stream to seep up through the rock. The Pythia - an initiated female priestess who had undergone extensive training and conditioning that included fasting - would sit in the adyton, breathe the vapors to induce a trancelike state, and prophesize to those who waited to hear her words outside. The prophecies were obscure and cryptic - in fact, one synonym for the word "cryptic" is "Delphic" - and open to very wide interpretation. The gases were "sweet and perfume-y" according to Plutarch - a known statesman and historian, and one of the two Priests of Delphi - and they did not affect the uninitiated in the same way that they would the priestess. Plutarch also noted that the gases were beginning to lessen and dissipate even during his time (in the first century BC.) The Oracle fell out of use in the 4th century AD with the onset of Roman Christianity, and until very recent times the existence of the gases and even the underground spring was in doubt; modern science has revealed that the legend could have indeed been fact.'"

    The Vatican City, the Vatican. The word vaticinor means "foretell, prophesy" from vatis "poet, teacher, oracle".

    History: The origin of the word Vatican is shrouded in as much mystery as the place itself. It was used simply as the name of a hill in Rome, Mons Vaticanus "the Vatican Hill". The Latin word vaticinor means "foretell, prophesy" from vatis "poet, teacher, oracle". This suggests that the original hill was the location of an oracle, a place where high priests communicated with the Roman gods. Thus the name reflects a long history of contact with spiritual powers.

    Vaticinor
    Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary

    From vātēs (“soothsayer, prophet”).

    Vatican Hill (in Latin, Mons Vaticanus ) is the name given, long before the founding of Christianity, to one of the hills on the side of the Tiber opposite the traditional seven hills of Rome. It may have been the site of an Etruscan town called Vaticum.

    · The name "Vatican" has often been thought to derive from the Latin "vates", meaning "seer, soothsayer", though this is uncertain and it is also possible that "Vaticanus" comes from an unrelated Etruscan loan-word.

    Indeed, the Vatican Hill was the home of the Vates long before pre-Christian Rome. Vaticanus, also known as Vagitanus, was an Etruscan god of prophecy, and his temple was built on the ancient site of Vaticanum (Vatican Hill).

    · In the 1st century AD, the Vatican Hill was outside the city limits and so could feature a circus (the circus of Nero) and a cemetery. St. Peter's Basilica is built over this cemetery, the traditional site of St. Peter the Apostle's grave. There was another cemetery nearby, which was opened to the public on 10 October 2006 to commemorate the 500th anniversary of the Vatican Museums.

    · The Vatican Hill is not one of the famous seven hills of Rome although it was included within the city limits of Rome during the reign of Pope Leo IV, who, between 848 and 852, expanded the city walls to protect St. Peter's Basilica and the Vatican. Thus, Vatican Hill has been within the walls and city limits of Rome for over 1100 years. Until the Lateran Treaties in 1929 it was part of the Rione of Borgo.

    Before the Avignon Papacy (1305–1378), the headquarters of the Holy See were located at the Lateran Palace. After the Avignon Papacy the church administration moved to Vatican Hill and the papal palace was (until 1871) the Quirinal Palace, upon the Quirinal Hill. Since 1929, part of the Vatican Hill is the site of the State of the Vatican City. However, the cathedral of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, is not St. Peter's in the Vatican, but Basilica di San Giovanni in Laterano, which is extra-territorially linked, as indicated in the Lateran Pacts signed with the Italian state in 1929, with the Holy See.


    · The Seven Hills of Rome (Italian: Sette colli di Roma) east of the river Tiber form the geographical heart of Rome, within the walls of the ancient city.

    The seven hills are:

    The original city was held by tradition to have been founded by Romulus on the Palatine Hill.

    Tradition holds that the seven hills were first occupied by small settlements and not grouped or recognized as a city called Rome. The denizens of the seven hills began to participate in a series of religious games, which started to bond the groups. The city of Rome, thus, came into being as these separate settlements acted as a group, draining the marshy valleys between them and turning them into markets (fora in Latin). Later, in the early 4th century BC, the seven hills were protected through the Servian Walls.

    Of the seven hills of current Rome, five (Aventine, Caelian, Esquiline, Quirinal, and Viminal hills) are populated with monuments, buildings, and parks. The Capitoline now hosts Rome's city hall, and the Palatine Hill belongs to the main archaeological area.

    The Vatican Hill (Latin Collis Vaticanus) lying northwest of the Tiber, the Pincian Hill (Latin Mons Pincius), lying to the north, and the Janiculum Hill (Latin Ianiculum), lying to the west, are not counted among the traditional Seven Hills.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  17. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" or "assembly" and is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to the assembly of Israel in the wilderness, so that is when the Church Age began and the church has always been the assembly of God's chosen people. When translators of the Bible inconsistently translate "ekklesia" as "church" only when it refers to an assembly of NT believers and translate it as "assembly" everywhere else, they create the false impression that it was speaking about something brand new rather than something restored according to prophecy (Amos 9:11-12). In Acts 15:16-17, they quoted that prophecy, so they certainly saw themselves as its fulfillment.

    According to Rabbi Elazar: “Why is it written, ‘All the families of the earth shall bless themselves by [shall be grafted onto] you?’ The Holy One said to Abraham, ‘I have two good shoots to graft onto you: Ruth the Moabite and Naamah the Ammonite.'” (Yevamot 63a) Upon joining herself to the Jewish people, Ruth the Moabite became the great-grandmother of King David. Naamah the Ammonite married King Solomon, and her descendants included the righteous kings Asa, Jehoshaphat, and Hezekiah.

    So, Jews saw the nations as receiving the blessing promised to Abraham through being grafted as into Israel as living shoots where they would grow together and share in the strength and sustenance of the root to bear fruit. If you take branch from a wild olive tree and graft it into a cultivated olive tree, then it will bear new fruit, and Paul said something similar in Romans 11. In Romans 9:6-8, not everyone who is descended from Israel is of Israel, but rather Israel is all those who have faith in the promise, and in Ephesians 2:19, through faith in Messiah, we have become fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God.

    Did NT believers meet in homes because that is the ideal way to meet or because that was what was available? It was not like they never met in synagogues either. By all means we should model ourselves after them, but not everything that they did is a prescription for how we should live.

    We actually have many Christians today who teach against following the ways of our God and that the way to follow Christ is to not follow the Law that he followed, so something is amiss. A disciple is someone who has the goal of memorizing their rabbi's teachings, of learning how to think and act like them, and to essentially become an imitation of them, so being a disciple of Jesus necessarily involves following the same Law that he followed. He was sinless, so set a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Law, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6).

    In Acts 20:29, Paul predicted that after he left that savage wolves come among them and will not spare the flock and I believe that this is sadly what happened. I don't see another way to account for those teaching against obeying the Law of our God coming into prominence. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Gentiles to join a religion based on the Jewish Messiah and want as little to do with his religion as possible. The Law was given to God's followers to teach them how to walk in His ways, but they want to become followers of God, but don't want to follow His instructions for how to walk in His ways because they were only given to His followers and not to people like them who were not His followers. Rather than delighting in obeying God's Law it as Paul and David, they have such a low opinion of the Lawgiver that they consider to obedience to His commands to be bondage. To me that sounds like thoroughly confused theology. I know that God judges the heart of sincere believers, but the Bible has a lot of negative things to say about Lawlessness, so I am thankful that He is a merciful God.
     
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  18. chunkofcoal

    chunkofcoal Messianic Christian

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    Thank you for that quote, Soyeong; it gives a starting place for anyone who wants to read about being "grafted in" from the Jewish viewpoint.
     
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  19. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    We used to have a saying on these fora several years ago: Shorter posts are more likely to be read!

    Not addressed to everyone, but I do not bother reading posts that really long :)
     
  20. CherubRam

    CherubRam Well-Known Member

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    I understand and agree. I often cut short my post so people do not have to do a lot of needless reading. Sometimes there is just a lot that needs to be said. Don't forget, there are people who come here that have never heard some of the things we talk about. It's new to them.
     
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