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The Church and the Messianic movement

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by Christie insb, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    I was in a meeting last night and the speaker was Rami Danieli. Here is a link to his website: 3A%2F%2Ftouryourroots.com%2FStatement_Of_Faith.html#2725
    I found it very disturbing. I hate to summarize what he said because I disagreed with him adamantly and I might misstate his position. I talked to my husband this morning and his interpretation of what he said was that if the Church doesn't recognize that we are grafted in to Israel, it is dangerously mistaken. And my husband says that's a nice way of putting it. Anyway, Mr. Danieli seemed to think the Church was seriously off from practically the beginning. I said I didn't think God had abandoned His Church, ever, and he rejected the use of the term "Church," preferring "ekklesia." (sp?). He seems to feel that if it didn't adhere very closely to the New Testament model, it wasn't the ekklesia, to the point that he pointed to the fact that they met in homes, not a separate building.

    I feel that God "is not willing that any should perish." I know the universal Church has been seriously off at times, but what about the renewals within the Church? What about the sincere believers throughout the centuries? He implies that somehow, a true ekklesia has existed separate from the Holy catholic and universal Church.

    I feel strongly about this topic but I want to understand the position I oppose. I am sorry that I may be misstating his ideas, but I was hoping to summarize them as best I can. I feel like discussion could help me clarify my own thinking. Thanks in advance to anyone who is willing to discuss this.

    Edited to add: the link doesn't work. If you search for "rami danieli Israel" I think you can find it. He is a tour guide.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  2. Dave-W

    Dave-W Grandparent of six grandchildren, #7 on the way! Supporter

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    Are you sure he used "ecclesia" instead of "kehillat?"

    I have never heard of Mr. Danieli. But there are an awful lot of different doctrines going around out there under the "messianic" banner.
     
  3. Dave-W

    Dave-W Grandparent of six grandchildren, #7 on the way! Supporter

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    Of course there have been true and sincere believers in every decade of the Body's existence. But there have been some grave errors as well since the early to mid 2nd century, most developed following the Bar Kochba revolt of 135 ad. IMO the worst one is Replacement Theology.
     
  4. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    Yes, he used "ecclesia." He was using the term in the Greek New Testament, thus the Greek.

    I know there is a lot of craziness in the Messianic movement, as well as some people who know God and worship Him. I appreciate your feedback. Part of my interest in this topic is that it makes me so angry and I want to make sure I am truly - - I guess I want to say right - - in my understanding. Thanks for answering.
     
  5. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
  6. Dave-W

    Dave-W Grandparent of six grandchildren, #7 on the way! Supporter

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    Exactly. That in my mind is suspect.

    In most of the Messianic circles I have been around, those terms get taken back to the Hebrew - hence "kehilat."
     
  7. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic leaning Lutheran Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I will try and take some time later or tomorrow to write more...but in response to this part alone he is mistaken. I have heard this a lot, and it is just incorrect from what we know. Yes, the NT believers did meet in houses, after they were expelled from the synagogues and after the Temple was destroyed. Before that they met at the temple daily and continued to make sacrifices, this is all in Acts. In fact the evidence of them specifically congregating in Jerusalem to be near the temple, continuing the sacrificial system, and meeting at the Temple can point towards the earliest believers being a Temple sect. Of course this changed in the diaspora and when the Temple no longer existed. Then it was more focused on the synagogue and homes, much as mainstream Judaism had been between the first and second Temple and in the diaspora.

    We know they met in the synagogues and archaeological evidence points towards them using specific synagogues that leaning towards believers. We must remember that most believers were either Jewish or God-fearers and would have been going to the synagogues typically anyway, or meeting in group worship in homes if the community could not support a synagogue.

    In other words, they met in homes because either the community could not support a synagogue, they were persecuted, or just because they had to - not because they thought it was the best way to meet or the "right way" necessarily. Either way, they initially met in synagogues and the temple; so if we want to go back to the original we should start meeting in the synagogues again......maybe Messianic Synagogues...
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  8. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic leaning Lutheran Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam My name is Michael, I am a Judaic Christian.

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    Isaiah 4:2
    [ The Branch of the LORD ] In that day the Branch of the LORD will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land will be the pride and glory of the survivors in Israel.

    Isaiah 11:1
    [ The Branch From Jesse ] A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse; from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.

    Jeremiah 23:5
    “The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.

    Jeremiah 33:15
    “‘In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; he will do what is just and right in the land.

    Zechariah 3:8
    “‘Listen, High Priest Joshua, you and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

    Zechariah 6:12
    Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD.

    John 15:1
    [ The Vine and the Branches ] “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

    John 15:2
    He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

    John 15:4
    Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

    John 15:5
    “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

    John 15:6
    If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

    Romans 11:11
    [ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

    Romans 11:16
    If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

    Romans 11:17
    If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

    Romans 11:18
    do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.

    Romans 11:19
    You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”

    Romans 11:21
    For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    Romans 11:24
    After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
     
  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam My name is Michael, I am a Judaic Christian.

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    This is what God has spoken through His prophets.


    Genesis 17:3

    Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4. "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 5. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. 6. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. 7. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.


    Genesis 35:11
    And God said to him, "I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will come from your body.


    Exodus 12:37
    The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth. There were about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children. 38. Many other people went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.


    Leviticus 19:34
    The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.


    Leviticus 24:22
    You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.


    Numbers 15:15
    The community is to have the same rules for you and for the alien living among you; this is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. You and the alien shall be the same before the LORD :


    Joshua 8:33
    All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it—the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel.


    Esther 8:17
    In every province and in every city, wherever the edict of the king went, there was joy and gladness among the Jews, with feasting and celebrating. And many people of other nationalities became Jews because fear of the Jews had seized them.

    The word "Jew" was a nickname assigned by the Babylonians to anyone who either lived in or came from the area of Judea.

    Psalm 2:4
    The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. 5. Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, 6. "I have installed my King
    on Zion, my holy hill." 7. I will proclaim the decree of the LORD : He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father. 8. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.


    Psalm 82:8
    Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.


    Psalm 111:6
    He has shown his people the power of his works, giving them the lands of other nations.


    Isaiah 9:3
    You have enlarged the nation and increased their joy; they rejoice before you as people rejoice at the harvest, as men rejoice when dividing the plunder.


    Isaiah 14:1
    The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.


    Isaiah 26:15
    You have enlarged the nation, O LORD; you have enlarged the nation. You have gained glory for yourself;
    you have extended all the borders of the land.


    Isaiah 44:5
    One will say, 'I belong to the LORD '; another will call himself by the name of Jacob; still another will write on his hand, ['The LORD's / Yahwah],' and will take the name Israel.


    Isaiah 56:3
    Let no foreigner who has bound himself to the LORD say, "The LORD will surely exclude me from his people."- 6. And foreigners who bind themselves to the LORD to serve him, to love the name of the LORD, and to worship him, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it
    and who hold fast to my covenant-
    7. these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations."
    8. The Sovereign LORD declares— he who gathers the exiles of Israel: "I will gather still others to them besides those already gathered."


    Ezekiel 47
    21. "You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22. You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23. In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance," declares the Sovereign LORD.


    Zechariah 2:10
    "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD. 11. "Many nations will be joined with the LORD in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you. 12. The LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13. Be still before the LORD, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."


    Matthew 12:21
    In his name the nations will put their hope."



    The Parable of the Tenants
    Luke 20
    9. He went on to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard, rented it to some farmers and went away for a long time. 10. At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants so they would give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 11. He sent another servant, but that one also they beat and treated shamefully and sent away empty-handed. 12. He sent still a third, and they wounded him and threw him out.
    13. "Then the owner of the vineyard said, 'What shall I do? I will send my son, whom I love; perhaps they will respect him.' 14. "But when the tenants saw him, they talked the matter over. 'This is the heir,' they said. 'Let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 15. So they threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. "What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16. He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!" 17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written:

    " 'The stone the builders rejected
    has become the capstone? 18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, and he on whom it falls will be crushed."

    19. The teachers of the law and the chief priests looked for a way to arrest him immediately, because they knew he had spoken this parable against them. But they were afraid of the people.


    Acts 3:25
    And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'


    Romans 2:28
    For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


    Romans 3:29
    Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,


    Romans 4:13
    It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15. because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
    16. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.


    Romans 4:18
    Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be."


    Romans 8:17
    Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


    Romans 9:24
    even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?


    Romans 10:12
    For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,...


    Romans 10:19
    Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;...


    1 Corinthians 14:21
    In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.


    Ephesians 2:12
    remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


    Ephesians 2:19
    Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household,...


    Ephesians 3:6
    This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


    Galatians 3:28
    There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


    Galatians 3:29
    If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


    Colossians 3:11
    Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.


    Titus 3:7
    so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.


    Revelation 2:9
    I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.


    Revelation 3:9
    I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.


    Isaiah 65:15
    You will leave your name to my chosen ones as a curse; the Sovereign LORD will put you to death, but to his servants he will give another name.

    Acts 11:26
    and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called [Christians / Messianics] first at Antioch.


    A Jew is a convert to Orthodox Judaism and the Hebrews are an ethnic group of people.

    Contrary to popular belief, Jews are not a race, but an assembly of people. Hebrews are a race.

    A Hebrew may or may not be a Jew.
     
  11. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    He doesn't say anything here that jumps out at me as "bad" and "wrong.."
     
  12. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic leaning Lutheran Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    I do not disagree with your statement, merely pointing to the website I think you were trying to link in your initial post :)
     
  13. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    OK, thanks. I actually was just hoping that if other people could see where he was coming from they could say nay or yea.
     
  14. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    Rami does not show any qualifications to be a Licensed Tour Guide* on his Linkedin page. He lists himself as a Bible Teacher and Tour Guide at Segal Arie (not sure what that is but seems to be in the Kinneret Area of Israel). There is no indication where he studied to be a Bible Teacher, either.


    *All Tour Guides are required to be licensed in Israel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  15. tampasteve

    tampasteve Messianic leaning Lutheran Staff Member Red Team - Moderator Supporter

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    His website says he is licensed, but offers no proof. Further, the ministry of tourism does not have him listed as far as I can tell, but their website is not the easiest to use.
     
  16. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    He said he barely graduated from high school. I am confused about his credentials because I thought Messianic Jews couldn't be tour guides. Anyway. The woman who hosted the gathering called me and I don't think she agrees completely with this guy either.
     
  17. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    That is why I decided to check him out - I have a Linkedin page, (for professionals) so I could look him up, but his page is almost empty, not even a photo. :)
     
  18. Heber Book List

    Heber Book List Theologian [Applied Theology]

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    It is up to him if calls himself a Messianic Jew - Tour Guides are required to be knowledgeable of Christian beliefs, but whether he owns up to his own beliefs in that area, officially, is another matter. Maybe that is why he is not licensed?

    It takes most people years to study the Bible enough to be a 'Bible Teacher', as such, usually with an academic award(s).

    The website has a number of dead web links, outdated commentary and shows no tours since 2016. Not good signs.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  19. Christie insb

    Christie insb Well-Known Member

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    Could you summarize your points, Cherub? I have an idea where you are coming from but it will make it more clear if you could please give a short explanation of why you included these verses.

     
  20. CherubRam

    CherubRam My name is Michael, I am a Judaic Christian.

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    The verses show how the word "Branch" is used as a parable. Christians are a branch of Judaism, providing their doctrine is correct. A subject that I am not allowed to discuss at CF.
     
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