• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

The Christus Victor View of Atonement

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Yoder777, Jan 14, 2011.

  1. Yoder777

    Yoder777 Senior Veteran

    +451
    Buddhist
    Married
    US-Others
    The early church believed that Jesus died not just to save us from the punishment for sin but from sin itself. As Protestants, we claim to read the Bible literally yet we ignore any passage of Scripture which links our judgment before God with our deeds in this life. Through faith, God's grace is supposed to change you from the heart. We need God's discipline so that we may be changed.


    We need to fear being judged before God. He is our Creator and Redeemer and deserves our love and service in return. If a man gave you a million dollars, would you spit in his face? Why do we spit in the face of God who gives us treasure in heaven? This is not an invitation to despair because God's grace, if we only cooperate with it, will help us persevere to the end.
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Hammster

    Hammster Jesus is Post-Mil Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +20,690
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    I assume you are speaking for yourself.
     
  3. Yoder777

    Yoder777 Senior Veteran

    +451
    Buddhist
    Married
    US-Others
    A common Protestant position is that, as long as you have faith, you'll be saved regardless of your conduct in this life. This is especially true in Baptist churches.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2011
  4. Hammster

    Hammster Jesus is Post-Mil Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +20,690
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Then maybe you should have stated it that way.
     
  5. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

    +824
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    It's not very common. It's very vocal, but it's not very common.
     
  6. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

    +824
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Christus Victor is not an all-encompassing or overarching concept. The marketplace model is entrenched in Scripture as well, but it's not encompassed by CV. The sacrifice model is entrenched in Scripture but it's not encompassed by CV. CV does use a large number of Messianic references (I mean, it really is "Messianic Victor"); but it's one model that doesn't overarch the others.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Jesus is Post-Mil Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +20,690
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Can you substantiate this claim?
     
  8. Yoder777

    Yoder777 Senior Veteran

    +451
    Buddhist
    Married
    US-Others
    How is that true?
     
  9. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

    +824
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    Sacrifice model: what's a sacrifice to God for, in CV?
     
  10. Yoder777

    Yoder777 Senior Veteran

    +451
    Buddhist
    Married
    US-Others
    The most common position in Southern Baptist churches is once saved always saved.
     
  11. Yoder777

    Yoder777 Senior Veteran

    +451
    Buddhist
    Married
    US-Others
    Where in Scripture does it say that Jesus was sacrificed to appease God? Instead, it's God in Jesus reconciling the world to himself.
     
  12. Kaitlin08

    Kaitlin08 Senior Member

    995
    +31
    Anglican
    US-Democrat
    I don't see how ransom theology has anything to do with Christus Victor, which is an interpretation of the resurrection, not the cross. For this reason Christus Victor is not an atonement at all.
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Jesus is Post-Mil Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +20,690
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Anecdotal at best.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2011
  14. Christos Anesti

    Christos Anesti Junior Member

    +255
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    In Orthodox theology generally it can be said that the language of 'payment' and 'ransom' is rather understood as a metaphorical and symbolical way of saying that Christ has done all things necessary to save and redeem mankind enslaved to the devil, sin and death, and under the wrath of God. He 'paid the price, not in some legalistic or juridical or economic meaning. He "paid the price" not to the devil whose rights over man were won by deceit and tyranny. He 'paid the price' not to God the Father in the sense that God delights in His sufferings and received 'satisfaction' from His creatures in Him. He 'paid the price' rather, we might say, to Reality Itself. He 'paid the price' to create the conditions in and through which man might receive the forgiveness of sins and eternal life by dying and rising again in Him to newness of life. (See Romans 5:8 and Galatians 2:4 By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, Jesus Christ cleansed the world from evil and sin. He defeated the devil 'in his own territory' and on 'his own terms.' The 'wages of sin is death'.Romans 6:23 So the Son of God became man and took upon Himself the sins of the world and died a voluntary death. By His sinless and innocent death accomplished entirely by His free will—and not by physical, moral, or juridical necessity—He made death to die and to become itself the source and the way into life eternal."[7]
     
  15. Christos Anesti

    Christos Anesti Junior Member

    +255
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Some of the Fathers and early Christians understood the ransom to have been paid to death (St Gregory of Nyssa) or Satan (Origen) to whom we were in bondage. Others didn't really like that idea and said it was best to be understood in a more metaphorical sense and not to speculate as to an actual "person" or entity that this ransom was "paid too" (St Gregory the Theologian) . Eventually Anselm came up with the idea that it was paid to the Father though and a lot of Western Christians followed along in that teaching. It wasn't around for the first 1,000 years of the Christian faith though.
     
  16. Hammster

    Hammster Jesus is Post-Mil Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +20,690
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

    Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

    1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

    1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
     
  17. Christos Anesti

    Christos Anesti Junior Member

    +255
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    Christ conquered death by his death and freed the captives!
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Jesus is Post-Mil Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

    +20,690
    United States
    Reformed
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    Actually, He conquered death by His resurrection.
     
  19. Yoder777

    Yoder777 Senior Veteran

    +451
    Buddhist
    Married
    US-Others
    How one understands the atonement is linked with how one chooses to translate the New Testament. On the other hand, how one translates the New Testament is linked with how one understands the atonement.

    Did Jesus die to save us from the punishment for sin (propitiation) or from sin itself (expiation)? For its first thousand years, the Christian faith believed in Christus Victor, not penal substitution.
     
  20. Yoder777

    Yoder777 Senior Veteran

    +451
    Buddhist
    Married
    US-Others
    Jesus' death and resurrection should be seen as one event. Without dying, he couldn't resurrect, and without resurrecting, his death would be meaningless.
     
Loading...