The Christian Right is Helping Drive Liberals Away From Religion

[Akita Suggagaki]

I havè always appreciated Jim Wallis.

Jim Wallis

 

[Albion]

I'm sure this has something to do with it, but it's not the whole reason Liberals are walking away ...

It's not even an important reason. And there is much more politicking in liberal churches than in conservative ones, so the charge itself doesn't really ring true. I would guess that it's what only a few poorly-informed liberals think or, if not that, an excuse.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's not even an important reason. And there is much more politicking in liberal churches than in conservative ones, so the charge itself doesn't really ring true. I would guess that it's what only a few poorly-informed liberals think or an excuse.

I'm sure that's true, but let's face it, individuals and groups on both sides have been at fault for the uproar. And somewhere, I'm also sure there's a devil in the details causing some of the spiritual flustering as well.

 

[Albion]

I'm sure that's true, but let's face it, individuals and groups on both sides have been at fault for the uproar.

That could be...but that's not the view taken by the article we have been asked to read by the OP.

 

[JackRT]

It's not even an important reason. And there is much more politicking in liberal churches than in conservative ones, so the charge itself doesn't really ring true.

Do you have as much experience in conservative churches as you obviously do in liberal churches?

I would guess that it's what only a few poorly-informed liberals think or, if not that, an excuse.

I am glad that you recognize that there are only a few poorly informed liberals.

 

[hedrick]

It's not even an important reason. And there is much more politicking in liberal churches than in conservative ones, so the charge itself doesn't really ring true. I would guess that it's what only a few poorly-informed liberals think or, if not that, an excuse.

I've heard reports of this. I can only say that it's not true of PCUSA churches I know. Our worship is pretty much like any worship, with a normal liturgy, and exegetical sermons. Our national leadership likes to make "prophetic" statements. I often, but not always, agree with them, but they don't represent the substance of what happens in our churches.

Remember that most "liberal" churches are actually mixed churches that have both liberals and conservatives.

 

[hedrick]

I am not convinced that right-wing politics are driving people away from liberal churches. Our young adults seem not to see any reason to continue being involved in church, even if they still believe what we teach (which they often do). Most of them have little exposure to conservative Christianity, so I doubt that's the cause.

Non-Christians may well get the impression that Christianity as traditional culture packaged as a religion. So I'm prepared to believe that it limits new members. There's always people coming and going from any church, so that kind of limit does have a long-term consequence. But I think the more serious problem is that the people who historically were involved in the mainline churches no longer consider church worth doing.

Nor is having our churches become more conservative likely to be that useful. Sure, we'd probably get a larger share of the remaining Christians. But if we're going to avoid becoming like Europe, we need to find a way to reach the people we're not reaching.

 

[hedrick]

I would actually state the thesis in a way that's almost opposite.

I think the natural tendency so far in advanced societies has been secularization. However the US has retained a surprising amount of traditional culture, even though our society is in many ways modern. I think members of that traditional culture see Christianity as part of it, and maybe even its protector. I'm not so sure they're driving members of the modern culture away from Christianity. I think most of those people would naturally leave anyway.

I'd like to see us reach members of the modern culture. It's true that the image of Christianity as in bed with right-wing politics makes that harder. But it would be pretty hard anyway.

 

[lismore]

If the church gets too political (in any country) it can be an issue. No human political stance or theory aligns perfectly with the gospel. It's good to keep perspective:

John 18:36.
Philippians 3:20

God Bless All

 

[Albion]

I've heard reports of this. I can only say that it's not true of PCUSA churches I know. Our worship is pretty much like any worship, with a normal liturgy, and exegetical sermons. Our national leadership likes to make "prophetic" statements. I often, but not always, agree with them, but they don't represent the substance of what happens in our churches.

Remember that most "liberal" churches are actually mixed churches that have both liberals and conservatives.

Well, you are trying hard to add a few asterisks to what I wrote, but it is not news that many liberal churches (not all of them) are very politically active while most conservative ones are not (but some probably are). And also with individual members in both groups. But the point I made is still true.

 

[timothyu]

And there is much more politicking in liberal churches than in conservative ones

Why are there even liberal or conservative churches? Wrong governance.

 

[Skreeper]

Be like Ben Shapiro
Think like Ben Shapiro
Act like Ben Shapiro
BenShapiro2020

Ah yes, Ben Shapiro. The brilliant man who said this:

No, thank you.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Well, you are trying hard to add a few asterisks to what I wrote, but it is not news that many liberal churches (not all of them) are very politically active while most conservative ones are not (but some probably are). And also with individual members in both groups. But the point I made is still true.

Compare the websites of the National Council of Churches with that of the National Association of Evangelicals. Which has more political content?

 

[Albion]

Why are there even liberal or conservative churches? Wrong governance.

Well, those are just commonly-used labels. They aren't the best that could be employed, especially since they make us think of political divisions.

But yes, some churches are more traditional in doctrine and practice while others are more contemporary, which generally means adapting old beliefs and practices to more recent research, conditions, etc.

 

[Albion]

Compare the websites of the National Council of Churches with that of the National Association of Evangelicals. Which has more political content?

Without looking, I can tell you that neither of those organizations represents a clear-cut liberal or conservative perspective. They are much more broadly based than that.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Ah yes, Ben Shapiro. The brilliant man who said this:


No, thank you.

You might want to swap that with a better video. The commentary gets salty at the end.

 

[Halbhh]

Pick any scenario or example you like. Replace the word homosexuality with any other sin you care to and the logic stands. That said, disliking self righteousness is almost as universal as sin is, so I find myself in full agreement with you there.

My point is that the church is not doing the driving away work, culture is. You said if you heard a preacher say something like that you would walk out. That's good and I share your attitude about it. I'm simply pointing out that I have never had to actually walk out because the leader of the church, the pastors I have heard, never say those sorts of things. My guess is you have never had to walk out either. Because the kinds of statements we are talking about don't come from the authentic church leadership on the right, who are for the most part loving, kind, and Christlike. They come from regular people who are ignorant of the true meaning of the Gospel and have their own hang ups and hurts coming out.

Similarly, vilifying conservative Christianity or blaming people leaving the church on the religious right is a red herring. If the mere existence of hypocrites and self righteous people is sufficient reason for a person to walk away from the Gospel, then they have failed to grasp the message of the Gospel and the requirements of Discipleship to begin with.

Culture is driving people away from he church, not the religious right.

I was just thinking: the most dangerous deadly sin that is the most common, one which is not forgiven unless there is repentance, but must absolutely be left behind, is the sin of pridefulness. Christ tells us even that this is just unconditionally something that must go. He singles it out:

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. "

We see this sin of pridfulness/arrogance isn't a level of sin covered over by forgiving others, as at least some sins can be (Matthew chapter 6). He instead tells us that this sin of pridefulness is unacceptable entirely.

So...since this sin of pridefulness is also far more common than so many other sins, including sodomy, and even the serious sin of adultery...

I'm hoping to hear from people that their pastor is preaching effective sermons to help people escape this deadly sin of pridefulness.

It's so widespread, and in every church. Is your pastor doing a good job, and helping the congregation become aware of this, and the way out?

I think it helps so much if the pastor does indeed admit they themselves stumble (James 5:16), as that is a wonderful humbleness, and also a very helpful example.

 

[timothyu]

I was just thinking: the most dangerous deadly sin that is the most common, one which is not forgiven unless there is repentance, but must absolutely be left behind, is the sin of pridefulness. Christ tells us even that this is just unconditionally something that must go. He singles it out:

Agree if you consider that the ultimate pridefulness is putting our will over/ahead of the will of God. It was the original sin.

 

[charsan]

The Christian Right is Helping Drive Liberals Away From Religion

I'm sure this has something to do with it, but it's not the whole reason Liberals are walking away ...

They have for quite a while and it is only their fault no one else, but they do like to blame others

 

[charsan]

If resisting sin and becoming like Christ drives people away then they have no right to call themselves Christians in the first place. One has to recognize sin before they can recognize the value of Christ's teachings

Exactly