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The Christian baker's unanswered legal argument: Why the strongest objections fail

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by Michie, Dec 1, 2017.

  1. Michie

    Michie Perch Perkins. Catholic reporter. ;) Supporter

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  2. Uber Genius

    Uber Genius "Super Genius"

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    Great article thoughtfully defended.
     
  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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  4. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Long article, but well worth the read. Thanks.
     
  5. Halbhh

    Halbhh Hubble telescope saw in empty sky....galaxies! Supporter

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    Pressed for time, but while in a land of freedom, no one should be compelled to do business with anyone, even if merely on a whim even, etc. Even racism isn't overcome by forcing people, but is instead overcome by love and words and deeds in reality.

    But....as Christians we know we are to continue loving people even if they are sinners (or even if we make guesses that way, a risky thing to do btw).

    If we stopped loving people if they are sinners, we'd only love a few old people, and none more, here on Earth.

    So when we are obeying Christ our Lord and loving a sinner, how might we interact with them?

    Answer: in a truly friendly way, we should tell them the Good News of Christ that they might be saved. This can be done even in only a few words in some ways, at times.

    Actually doing that. So while the baker may already be willing (it would appear from this article) to make them a cake without a theme he personally disapproves of, quite reasonably, he could bake them a generic cake without that theme and tell them the Good News. He might still get challenged, or possibly not, but even if he is challenged he will have done all the right things.

    It's interesting to consider that in the scriptures there is nothing at all about gay marriage of course, not one bit.

    And we do know we are not to add to scripture. It's a commandment in the OT.

    What is in scripture is references to sexual immorality -- actual deeds or committing adultery in the heart. Not merely for instance a celibate love relationship (as an illustration). Often this issue is argued by people not seeming to realize the actual wordings in the scripture, about a particular detestable act that even male/female traditional married couples can do, and some do. So, they end up arguing against 'gay marriage', which isn't even a thing in the Bible at all. And, are they themselves free of every sexual sin? But all have sinned. All have fallen short. We all equally need Christ, you and I as much as anyone else.
     
  6. Michie

    Michie Perch Perkins. Catholic reporter. ;) Supporter

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  7. Michie

    Michie Perch Perkins. Catholic reporter. ;) Supporter

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  8. Michie

    Michie Perch Perkins. Catholic reporter. ;) Supporter

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    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  9. Halbhh

    Halbhh Hubble telescope saw in empty sky....galaxies! Supporter

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    What if the "gay marriage" is with continence (has no sodomy intercourse)?

    "Christians" "objecting" to "gay marriage" are objecting for reasons not in scripture unless they feel they can judge actions they do not know are happening.

    Are we instructed to guess at other people's unknown actions and refuse to do business with them based on our guess?

    I'm open to hear any argument that we can, but best I understand, we are not to do that, because it is not "judging correctly".

    For now, I consider a 'religious' objection to mere 'gay marriage' not communicated to involve sodomy to be a non-Christian religious objection.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  10. Chrystal-J

    Chrystal-J the one who stands firm to the end will be saved

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    The article makes a good point when they bring up the Jehovah Witnesses. They don't have to serve jury duty, go into the military, salute the flag or vote. But, they were willing to go to jail for their rights. This may end up being the case for some Christians.
     
  11. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    Right. Only Jesus speaking of a man and a woman becoming one flesh. As to the rest of your post, I think I agree.
     
  12. Michie

    Michie Perch Perkins. Catholic reporter. ;) Supporter

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  13. Michie

    Michie Perch Perkins. Catholic reporter. ;) Supporter

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  14. longhair75

    longhair75 Finally back Home Supporter

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    An interesting article.

    Just my humble opinion: The fact that this situation has escalated to the Supreme Court of the USA is ludicrous. It is indicative of the condition of our society. Had this been an interaction between adults, it could have been resolved simply.

    Had the baker simply said "I am sorry, I am uncomfortable creating a cake for your event. My colleague across the street makes really nice cakes. Let me make a call for you. I am sure he will be happy to accommodate your wishes."

    Or, had the couple seeking the cake said "If you are uncomfortable creating a cake for us, we will take our business elsewhere."

    The situation would have resolved itself by all people involved acting like adults in polite society.

    Today, everyone on both sides of any argument have to let the world know just how offended they are and that society needs to adjust itself to their wishes.

    The driving force behind both sides (in my opinion) are the lawyers that are making a fortune wasting society's time with this nonsense.
     
  15. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a simple case of punishing one baker to be a lesson to everyone else that they must affirm the LGBT agenda. Smash 'em, ruin 'em, bankrupt 'em into submission. Much like the case of the Washington state florist who got the smackdown from people she had served for years, just because she could not affirm the LGBT agenda.

    So now religious liberty in the USA depends on the whim of Anthony Kennedy. That's not a very safe situation to be in. The decision should be a no-brainer, with religious liberty prevailing, but our society is pretty far gone to expect that. I'm hoping rational minds might prevail at 5-4, but not at all sure of it.
     
  16. longhair75

    longhair75 Finally back Home Supporter

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    There are (again, in my opinion) two agendas at work here. The two sides of this argument are like two junkyard dogs who are chained up just out of reach. This is just the latest round. However this plays out, the next round is just over the horizon.
     
  17. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member

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    Since I don't see most Christians in the role of a junkyard dog ready to kill homosexuals, I just see one junkyard dog. OK Westboro Baptist Church formerly led by Fred Phelps could be the other junkyard dog. But I see them as useful stooges probably quietly well funded by LGBT interests to play the part of a junkyard dog. For the most part Christians do not have an animus against people on the other side.

    All along in the campaign for homosexual marriage was the absolute insistence that it would change nothing and harm nobody, but only make things better for poor homosexuals who could not marry. Just give them what everybody else has and nobody else is inconvenienced a bit. We find out now that such talk was just talk. The baker better be on board, the florist, the photographer. If the baker can be forced to be on board, how soon before the minister must be on board? My prediction is if the baker must comply then the cases about ministers are less than two years away. We will be reading about how it all swings in the balance awaiting justice Kennedy's whim.
     
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