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I am glad that I could cause you mirth but I don't see how trying to help you get a fuller grasp is funny.Twin,
You said, after your monologue:
Not trying to argue with you but trying to make you see the whole picture.
You are funny.
Harmony at the expense of truth is compromise and hypocrisy. I am wondering how it is that you from one post have determined that I was being contentious or nitpicking. Perhaps you should wonder why it is that you are above instruction.Twin:
"Funny," but not ha, ha funny.
It is not edifying to nitpick, split hairs, to make minors into majors, or to create controversy where there is none.
It is not edifying to be badgered, bludgeoned, intimated, shamed, etc. to accept another's egoistical viewpoint. We get clarity on this issue from Scripture:
"Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." James 3:13-18, ESV.
The Message Bible sums it up with regard to controversy:
"I want you to put your foot down. Take a firm stand on these matters so that those who have put their trust in God will concentrate on the essentials that are good for everyone. Stay away from mindless, pointless quarreling over genealogies and fine print in the law code. That gets you nowhere. Warn a quarrelsome person once or twice, but then be done with him. Its obvious that such a person is out of line, rebellious against God. By persisting in divisiveness he cuts himself off." Titus 3:8-11.
What is needful is harmony and love. Christ calls us to peace.
Perhaps you should actually go back and read the thread and my posts. I have in no way sought to pick a fight. But you seem to want one and accuse me of being less than Christian. I am confident that I can stand before God in this matter without fear.Twin,
1) It is not just merely one post. Throughout this entire thread, you have attempted to pick a fight. One might ask "Why?"
2) "The heart of the wise makes his speech judicious and adds persuasiveness to his lips." (Proverbs 16:23).
3) Perhaps it is you who is above instruction. Perhaps you are the one in error. And, perhaps a little humility is in order. "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18).
4) We are to help and encourage one another, not use and put down others in order to "feel good about ourselves." That is not about "truth" but about personal insecurity and competition.
5) Dissension is dissension; and, we are warned about it. "But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." (Titus 3:9-11).
I consider that you stand self-condemned. I am done here. Period.
And, we all been given free will.
A W Tozer was no Calvinist. While "The Knowledge of the Holy" is a great read in many respects he compromises truth in order to make it more palatable to the rebel.Hi Inkfingers,
I am a Calvinist by belief and agreement with what the Scriptures reveal about election. Election is a fact, pure and simple. The doctrine of election is all throughout the Scriptures.
That being established... on the one hand, our days are numbered and our final destiny pre-determined. It is like we are on a cruise ship going to a certain port. The destiny has been chosen and pre-established.
But, although the cruise ship is heading toward its destination, while we are on the ship, we can still do what we want to do ON the cruise ship -- we can move the lounge chairs around, we can decide to eat or not, we can choose some activities over others. We can even sleep through the entire voyage.
God is sovereign without question. That is incontestable.
But, we are not puppets, with the "master puppeteer" pulling all our strings, determining and directing our every activity, action and choice.
If we go back to the Garden of Eden -- Adam and Eve had the free will to eat of the forbidden fruit of the Garden. God did not force them to disobey Him.
Granted, the serpent was in the Garden and God knew it. God knew that they would disobey Him. But, omniscience is not the same thing as puppeteering.
I think this is why Calvinists get a bad name. People -- especially those who hate the doctrine of election -- wickedly make God out to be a monster, claiming that He put some here only to destroy them. Well, it in truth, that is the sum of the doctrine of reprobation...but, God is a good God. Period.
One might argue: "But, God used Pharaoh to for His own purposes 'to get Himself glory' -- isn't that rank puppeteering?" Well, remember, that there were numerous times when Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God knew he would and God used it for His purposes. And, God can do as He sees fit; He is the Creator of all. "Cannot a potter decide what to do with the pot He is making?"
Adam and Eve most certainly had free will to choose to disobey God or to obey God. And, that was a test. Yes, God knew that they would choose to disobey. But, He did not make them disobey. They chose to believe the devil's lies -- "Oh, and did God REALLY say...?" They chose to doubt God. They chose to listen to and believe Satan over God. They chose to disobey God. It was their freewill choice.
But, NOTE that although God KNEW that they would disobey Him and that sin would enter the world -- from eternity past, He made a PROVISION for redemption and restoration. Puppeteering? No a Masterplan for the ages.
One can argue -- and, perhaps this is where you are coming from when you say that "there is no such thing as free will" -- that God is the originator of all causes and therefore we don't actually have free will as it is all pre-determined. Well, yes and no.
We need to remember that "God's ways and thoughts are above our own." And, although, we have been given "the mind of Christ" we still cannot get our finite minds around the infinite.
Election and free will are co-existent and reconcilable. But, if we try to reconcile them, we will break our heads! Why not just say, "Glory to God!!! His ways are past finding out!"
Going back to my original statement that "it is a test" -- I stand by that, but acknowledge that God knows how we are going to respond. He created us. And, He is in eternity and sees all at a glance.
One could argue about the Lucifer & the fallen angels. Didn't God create them perfect? He did. How was it that imperfection was found in Lucifer? Why did a perfect creature in his exalted position choose to exalt himself and cause a rebellion in Heaven? Answer: the angels also had free will.
I suppose one could argue that as originator of all causes, then God ordained that rebellion. Well, Inkfingers, my friend, that is putting evil on God. And, that is a place we don't want to go. God is a good God. Although by His allowing the free will of His creatures, sin entered into creation, God can never be charged with evil or sin. Period.
Adam and Eve had the free will to eat of the forbidden fruit of the Garden. God did not force them to disobey Him.
Adam and Eve most certainly had free will to choose to disobey God or to obey God. And, that was a test. Yes, God knew that they would choose to disobey. But, He did not make them disobey. They chose to believe the devil's lies -- "Oh, and did God REALLY say...?" They chose to doubt God. They chose to listen to and believe Satan over God. They chose to disobey God. It was their freewill choice.
One can argue -- and, perhaps this is where you are coming from when you say that "there is no such thing as free will" -- that God is the originator of all causes and therefore we don't actually have free will as it is all pre-determined.
That's an appeal to magic wands and unicorns Renee. Saying that it exists but we can't know that it exists because its too much for us begs the question of how you know it exists then.We need to remember that "God's ways and thoughts are above our own." And, although, we have been given "the mind of Christ" we still cannot get our finite minds around the infinite.
One could argue about the Lucifer & the fallen angels. Didn't God create them perfect? He did. How was it that imperfection was found in Lucifer? Why did a perfect creature in his exalted position choose to exalt himself and cause a rebellion in Heaven? Answer: the angels also had free will.
This analogy seemed to imply that I would always make the right decision. If only it were so!!! I have made enough very wrong choices that if it were not for the grace of God and Him holding me by His righteous right hand, I surely would be lost forever.
But, God didn't make Lucifer a devil; and, He didn't make Adam and Eve sinners. They chose that path by free will.
Hi again Bryan
Thanks for clarifying that for me. That makes perfect sense! And, it squares with reality.
On the Grudem book...I sort of had a wish plan to get through it...but, life happens. What I find most helpful is to pull it out when a theological question comes up...that way I am really invested and engaged. Frankly, some of the topics just are not in my radar right now...
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