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LoveGodsWord

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I see, so there’s no actual rhyme, reason, or logic for bringing up sun worship or paganism, no intention to imply that the church and her beliefs and practices were actually influenced or changed by these things, only that, incidentally and by happenstance the church chose the day of the sun to rest and and worship rather than the day of Saturn to do so.
Sure there is. The actual rhyme, reason, or logic for bringing up sun worship or paganism within the Church was only to show their origins. This was only touched on in post # 2 and was not the main purpose of the post. The main purpose of post # 2 however, was to clear up a few misconception people may have about Sunday worship entering the Roman empire and the early Church. The purpose of this post was never to teach that the Church teaches sun-worship. Only that some practices in the Church have their origins from paganism and sun-worship.
No one worships idols in the Catholic Church, certainly not according to any church teaching.
No one said anyone teaches idol worship in the Church. What was posted to you was how is a Church making a claim of teaching God's ten commandments yet making idols and putting them in a Church and allowing people to bow down to them when Gods' commandments say not to do this? This is only at best breaking God's commandments according to the scriptures.

Why follow teachings and traditions that are not biblical that go against scripture like the veneration and praying to dead so called saints, or incorporating pagan icons into the Church and encouraging people to break God's "seventh day" Sabbath commandment of the 10 commandments in favor of a man-made teaching and traditions that has led many to break the commandments of God?

Knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandment is sin according to the scriptures and Jesus (not me) says if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. So if Jesus says it then it certainly sounds like a deal breaker in my view. Let's be honest here as these words are not mine but Gods. Do you believe them? If not why?
There was controversy surrounding graven images that was addressed centuries ago at council and it was recognized and acknowledged back then that the command against fashioning graven images was consistent with all the first commandments against worshipping anyone or anything but God alone, first above all else. The Jews had been influenced by paganism to fashion golden calves, for example, and then bow down before and worship them. That concept is totally foreign and objectionable within a Catholic church. The production of statues and paintings or icons is no different from the cherubim that God commissioned to be made for the ark of the covenant or Moses' bronze serpent; they're not objects of worship.
Yet the Church continues making idols and people continue bowing down to them in the church which is against the scriptures. Gods' earthly temple of which was only a copy of the heavenly in the old covenant is not the church according to the scriptures.

Then we have this in the Church today...

Idol worship5.jpg

Idol worship4.jpg

Idol worship6.jpg

Idol worship7.jpg


You cannot see anything wrong here dear friend?

FROM THE 10 COMMANDMENTS

Exodus 20:3-5 [3], You shall have no other gods before me. [4], You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5], You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Something to pray about I guess. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. I see the above as not believing and following Gods' word so must go with my conviction and belief to follow God's Word. I believe God is calling his people out from following these traditions back to worship Him in Spirit and in truth back to the pure Word of God. I believe there are many Godly people in the Roman Catholic Church and all Churches for that matter. God is calling all of us back to His Word.
And God is always calling His people to renewal and increased holiness-and chastising His people who's sins will be made known. The church will always consist of sinners and saints. We don't need to add more churches because of it tho. What we have here is the case of people reading and interpreting the Bible centuries after the fact and deciding, on that basis alone, God’s will for man, vs also considering the lived experience of the church He established. The practice of Sunday worship didn’t happen in a vacuum, nor did it consist of a sudden, blatant, about-face. Rather it was “inherited”, so to speak, by the church from early on. And Scripture can well be vague or silent on the topic; it was never intended to serve as some kind of exhaustive catechism which is why many beliefs and practices are not perfectly explicit in the Bible. And those early believers were not ignorant of the Old Testament, or the Old Covenant, or the "old way", nor was anyone then or later filled with evil intentions to corrupt church teachings or practice licentiousness. They were simply free, within boundaries, to live their relationship with God in a new way, the right way.
The reason for the reformation was because the mother Church had departed the word of God in order to follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God.

I do agree with you however in that this same Protestantism as we see today is no different to the mother Church it departed from so many years ago. This is why the scriptures teach that BABYLON has fallen *Revelation 14:8-12 and Revelation 18:1-5. I believe God has his people in every Church who are living up to all the knowledge of Gods Word that he has revealed to them and in times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow them *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17.

God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling his people where ever they may be to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions back to the pure Word of God. God's sheep will hear his Voice (the Word of God) and follow him. Those who will not hear will not follow *John 10:26-27.

Sent only in love and as a help.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Lot's of things were changed with the New Covenant. And we simply have to look towards the church to resolve certain questions. Is man still obligated to obey the the commandments, apart from the rest of the law? Many say, based on Scripture alone, that we either obey the whole law perfectly or there's no reason to obey any of it. Faith sort of replaces our need to be obedient and personally righteous in their minds. Or some may say that as long as we love we don't need to be aware of any laws. And while that may be technically correct, who loves so perfectly as to obey perfectly and therefore have no need to be reminded of his disobedience or lawlessness?

So the church tells us we must obey those commandments in order to be considered just or righteous (declared righteous, Rom 2:13) in the eyes of God, whether or not we like the way she treats the 4th commandment (or third depending on numbering). And the church, before we may have opportunity or reason to question it, tells us that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. And the church assembled the New Testament that we all accept today. And the church tells us that we must be born of water -and not amniotic fluid- along with spirit in order to be born again. And the church tells us that our wills are involved in some manner or another in our salvation even if none of it can possibly be accomplished apart from grace, apart from God. And the church teaches that we can turn back away from God and forfeit our state of justice and therefore our salvation but that we can still always turn back again with a changed and repentant heart, and re-enter God's fold. Virtually all of this and much more is argued based on Scripture alone among Sola Scriptura adherents.

And the church can also teach this one truth, quoted from a 16th century believer, that, properly understood, sums up God's will with the New Covenant:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

Actually nothing has been removed from the new covenant only added. The 10 commandments magnified. Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Also, God is the one who tells us to obey His commandments, the church is not above God. That's where so many have it backwards, the church can't save you only God can! Do you follow the traditions of the church or God? I choose to follow God.

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelations 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
 
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fhansen

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Actually nothing has been removed from the new covenant only added to. The 10 commandments magnified. Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Also, God is the one who tells us to obey His commandments, the church is not above God. That's where so many have it backwards, the church can't save you only God can! Do you follow the traditions of the church or God? I choose to follow God.

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelations 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
All true-and yet much changed. Much of the law was simply no longer applicable, including circumcision, for example, a long revered practice. And the Church of Christ has continuously maintained that the commandments must be obeyed under the New Covenant.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Actually nothing has been removed from the new covenant only added to. The 10 commandments magnified. Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Also, God is the one who tells us to obey His commandments, the church is not above God. That's where so many have it backwards, the church can't save you only God can! Do you follow the traditions of the church or God? I choose to follow God.

Revelations 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Revelations 22: 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
WINNER! Sorry my ratings is temp not working :)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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All true-and yet much changed. Much of the law was simply no longer applicable, including circumcision, for example, a long revered practice. And the Church of Christ has continuously maintained that the commandments must be obeyed under the New Covenant.
There is a difference between the temporary Mosiac "shadow laws" of things to come like circumcision that was a physical sign in the old covenant of a new heart to love through faith in the new covenant and God's eternal law written on stone with the finger of God that gives us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness in the new covenant *Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to God's word in the new covenant if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments (including the seventh day Sabbath of God's 4th commandment) we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. The question we must all ask ourselves is who do we believe and follow; God or man? Jesus says if we knowingly follow man made teachings and traditions that break the commandments we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. According to the scriptures God does not hold us accountable for sin until we have been given a knowledge of the truth of his word and reject it in Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31 and James 4:17. God knows that many of his people unknowingly break his 4th commandment and is calling us all out from following man-made teachings and traditions back to worship him in Spirit and in truth according to his Word. My prayer is for us all to hear His voice (the Word) and follow what it says and receive God's blessing. Many will find out only too late according to Jesus when he returns that Gods' eternal word is not superseded by man-made teachings and traditions that break his commandments *Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 15:3-9; 1 Corinthians 7:19. This is something I believe we should all pray about who love JESUS and seek to follow him.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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And the church can also teach this one truth, quoted from a 16th century believer, that, properly understood, sums up God's will with the New Covenant:
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

I agree. What does the Bible teach us about love:

Jesus said: John 14: 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Seems pretty clear, how we show our love to God is listening to Him, hearing Him and obeying Him. When God not only speaks but also writes His commandments and than in the 4th commandment, asked us specifically to Remember His seventh day Sabbath and keep Holy, that seems super important.

You mentioned circumcision and that is not listed anywhere in the commandments of God Exodus 20. This was to help the Israelites while in the wilderness on their way to the promise land. That's why we have this scripture to remind us of what is important:

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
1 Corinthians 7:19

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God bless
 
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fhansen

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I agree. What does the Bible teach us about love:

Jesus said: John 14: 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Seems pretty clear, how we show our love to God is listening to Him, hearing Him and obeying Him. When God not only speaks but also writes His commandments and than in the 4th commandment, asked us specifically to Remember His seventh day Sabbath and keep Holy, that seems super important.

You mentioned circumcision and that is not listed anywhere in the commandments of God Exodus 20. This was to help the Israelites while in the wilderness on their way to the promise land. That's why we have this scripture to remind us of what is important:

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
1 Corinthians 7:19

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

God bless
In any case neither obedience of moral commands or of commands to be circumcized or of commands to observe the Sabbath, etc, necessarily demonstrate love, because such obedience isn't necessarily born of or motivated by love. And unless and until it is our obedience is not yet perfected. I'm not insinuating that you're saying otherwise, only making the distinction that love is the dividing line, and not the acts themselves. And of course God judges by the heart so He'll know. :) If I haven't quoted this before here, I've always appreciated the words of Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer,

"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."
 
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SabbathBlessings

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In any case neither obedience of moral commands or of commands to be circumcized or of commands to observe the Sabbath, etc, necessarily demonstrate love, because that obedience isn't necessarily born of or motivated by love. And unless and until it is our obedience is not yet perfected. I'm not insinuating that you're saying otherwise, only making the distinction that love is the dividing line, and not the acts in themselves. And of course God judges by the heart so He'll know. :)
No, its not the commands that demonstrate love, it is loving our Creator so much that we hear His Words and because we hear His Words we listen to the meaning of His Words and therefore WANT to obey because we love Him and He asked. Breaking His commandments is showing that you do not respect or care what our Father is asking. That is not love. I hope this helps.

Also, it appears to be more than just knowing the heart, God wants us to do.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.



God bless.
 
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Kilk1

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Hello Kilk,

Lets add the rest of the scripture back in.

1. Have we "become dead to the law (Rom. 7:4, NKJV)?

Romans 7:4 Why, my brothers, you also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit to God.

Yes dear friend we have become dead to the law for righteousness through the body of Christ.

.................

First note the context is to the example given of marriage. Note also the context of Romans 7:4 is to the target audience of "those who know the law" (Jews) Romans 7:1. For me I believe Romans 7:1-25 is an example of the two covenants of the "letter of the law" and the "Spirit of the law" and salvation though faith in Gods' Word (the body of Christ).

So Paul is saying simply that we do not get our righteousness through the law (first husband marriage). The purpose of God's law is to give us a knowledge of what sin is *Romans 7:7. We are to die to the law for righteousness to be married to another and seek Gods righteousness through the death of JESUS (body of Christ) - Read now Romans 8:1-4.

This is not saying as some teach that God's 10 commandments are abolished. It is simply stating that our righteousness is only in Christ and not the law and that the only purpose of God's law is to give us the knowledge of what sin is. Paul goes on to state in Romans 8:1-4 that those in Christ through the Spirit have God's law established in their lives. (see also Romans 3:31 and Galatians 5:16).

Does that make more sense?

................

2. Did the law say, "You shall not covet"?

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. No, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, You shall not covet.

Yes dear friend, the law is not sin and death it gives us the knowledge of what sin is and is holy, just and good v12

Romans 7:13 Was then that which is good (10 commandments) made death to me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Now read everything together Romans 6, Romans 7 and Romans 8.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word. :wave:
Thank you for the kind reply! Is it accurate to say that the same law we've become dead to (the first husband marriage, Romans 7:4) is the same law that said, "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7)? If so, is there a sense in which we've become dead to the 10 Commandments? Thanks for answering my questions! :)
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Thank you for the kind reply! Is it accurate to say that the same law we've become dead to (the first husband marriage, Romans 7:4) is the same law that said, "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7)? If so, is there a sense in which we've become dead to the 10 Commandments? Thanks for answering my questions! :)
Hello dear friend,

As posted earlier in the post you are replying to and shown through the scriptures already, in a sense yes, but what it means to become "dead to the law" is that we become dead to the law for seeking to become righteous. Another words, we do not get our righteousness from the law because there is no righteousness in us keeping God's law when we are all sinners in need of God's salvation *Matthew 9:12-13. All the law can do is give us the knowledge that we are all sinners *Romans 7:7

Our righteousness is only in the body of Christ which is Christ sacrifice for our sins and what Jesus has done for us at Calvary in dying for our sins (the body of Christ). Another words we die to the law for seeking our righteousness (context is that he is writing to the Jews who knew the law - Romans 7:1) because there is no righteousness in keeping the law when we have already broken the law. There is only righteousness in Christ because we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are all under the law guilty of sin *Romans 3:10-20.

The scriptures however are not saying as some falsely teach that Gods 10 commandments are abolished. Paul shows the true purpose of the 10 commandments is to give us the knowledge of what sin is in Romans 7:7 and this knowledge, leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25.

This is the new covenant promise of God writing his law of love on our hearts so that we can obey Gods' law *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 13:8-10 and concludes with Paul saying "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {WHY?}

THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (See Romans 8:1-4; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31 and Romans 13:8-10)

Hope this helps
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No, its not the commands that demonstrate love, it is loving our Creator so much that we hear His Words and because we hear His Words we listen to the meaning of His Words and therefore WANT to obey because we love Him and He asked. Breaking His commandments is showing that you do not respect or care what our Father is asking. That is not love. I hope this helps.

Also, it appears to be more than just knowing the heart, God wants us to do.

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.



God bless.

WINNER! Yep -

We are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *PHILIPPIANS 2:13 as we have been born again to love by BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD *1 John 5:3-4. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. Love is expressed in those who have been born again to love *1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:10-12; Matthew 22:36-40 and James 2:8-12 by obedience to God's law according to the scriptures and is Gods' new covenant promise revealed in those who believe and follow Gods' Word as shown in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27

God bless
 
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Kilk1

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Hello dear friend,

As posted earlier in the post you are replying to and shown through the scriptures already, in a sense yes, but what it means to become "dead to the law" is that we become dead to the law for seeking to become righteous. Another words, we do not get our righteousness from the law because there is no righteousness in us keeping God's law when we are all sinners in need of God's salvation *Matthew 9:12-13. All the law can do is give us the knowledge that we are all sinners *Romans 7:7

Our righteousness is only in the body of Christ which is Christ sacrifice for our sins and what Jesus has done for us at Calvary in dying for our sins (the body of Christ). Another words we die to the law for seeking our righteousness (context is that he is writing to the Jews who knew the law - Romans 7:1) because there is no righteousness in keeping the law when we have already broken the law. There is only righteousness in Christ because we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are all under the law guilty of sin *Romans 3:10-20.

The scriptures however are not saying as some falsely teach that Gods 10 commandments are abolished. Paul shows the true purpose of the 10 commandments is to give us the knowledge of what sin is in Romans 7:7 and this knowledge, leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25.

This is the new covenant promise of God writing his law of love on our hearts so that we can obey Gods' law *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 13:8-10 and concludes with Paul saying "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: {WHY?}

THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (See Romans 8:1-4; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27; Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31 and Romans 13:8-10)

Hope this helps
I think I see: Are you saying that we're dead to the law in the sense that it can no longer condemn us as sinners; however, we still are under the law and should follow it? Thanks for helping me better understand what you're saying. ^_^
 
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fhansen

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Sure there is. The actual rhyme, reason, or logic for bringing up sun worship or paganism within the Church was only to show their origins. This was only touched on in post # 2 and was not the main purpose of the post. The main purpose of post # 2 however, was to clear up a few misconception people may have about Sunday worship entering the Roman empire and the early Church. The purpose of this post was never to teach that the Church teaches sun-worship. Only that some practices in the Church have their origins from paganism and sun-worship.
I'll tell you, that's a distinction without much of a difference unless I'm really missing something.
There's simply no reason to associate Catholicism with sun-worship or paganism in any way unless someone means to accuse the church of allowing those things to enter and negatively impact the Church's message to the world.
No one said anyone teaches idol worship in the Church. What was posted to you was how is a Church making a claim of teaching God's ten commandments yet making idols and putting them in a Church and allowing people to bow down to them when Gods' commandments say not to do this? This is only at best breaking God's commandments according to the scriptures.

Why follow teachings and traditions that are not biblical that go against scripture like the veneration and praying to dead so called saints, or incorporating pagan icons into the Church and encouraging people to break God's "seventh day" Sabbath commandment of the 10 commandments in favor of a man-made teaching and traditions that has led many to break the commandments of God?

Knowingly breaking anyone of God's 10 commandment is sin according to the scriptures and Jesus (not me) says if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. So if Jesus says it then it certainly sounds like a deal breaker in my view. Let's be honest here as these words are not mine but Gods. Do you believe them? If not why?

Yet the Church continues making idols and people continue bowing down to them in the church which is against the scriptures. Gods' earthly temple of which was only a copy of the heavenly in the old covenant is not the church according to the scriptures.

Then we have this in the Church today...

View attachment 292082
View attachment 292083
View attachment 292084
View attachment 292085

You cannot see anything wrong here dear friend?

FROM THE 10 COMMANDMENTS

Exodus 20:3-5 [3], You shall have no other gods before me. [4], You shall not make to you any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5], You shall not bow down yourself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Something to pray about I guess. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. I see the above as not believing and following Gods' word so must go with my conviction and belief to follow God's Word. I believe God is calling his people out from following these traditions back to worship Him in Spirit and in truth back to the pure Word of God. I believe there are many Godly people in the Roman Catholic Church and all Churches for that matter. God is calling all of us back to His Word.

The reason for the reformation was because the mother Church had departed the word of God in order to follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God.

I do agree with you however in that this same Protestantism as we see today is no different to the mother Church it departed from so many years ago. This is why the scriptures teach that BABYLON has fallen *Revelation 14:8-12 and Revelation 18:1-5. I believe God has his people in every Church who are living up to all the knowledge of Gods Word that he has revealed to them and in times of ignorance God winks at but when he gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow them *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17.

God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling his people where ever they may be to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions back to the pure Word of God. God's sheep will hear his Voice (the Word of God) and follow him. Those who will not hear will not follow *John 10:26-27.

Sent only in love and as a help.
While there are cults that have developed over time in various places of the world that may well virtually worship Mary, against Church teachings, a basic love and honor has rightfully been paid to her from earliest times as a heroine in the faith, a model of humility, grace, and obedience to the will of God as witnessed by the fathers. And there are a variety of ways that people have properly expressed that veneration.

“...for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed” Luke 12:48

She hardly gets paid lip service in many Protestant denominations.

Either way one thing that’s almost certain is that none of the people pictured in your post actually believe that Mary exists in the statue, or that God the Son exists in some statue or painting or crucifix as the pagans believed about their god being in the golden calf that they fashioned with their own hands and then bowed down to. The pictures shown do not depict the graven images referred to in the first commandments, rather they serve as focus points for prayer and honoring something truly good, truly of God; and people pray to God through those kinds of physical symbols. Either way people I know who have a real devotion to Mary strictly do not worship, idolize, or view her as a god, placing her above God. They simply know better than that; they see her as a very good and worthy mother and friend in high places, one who wants all to come to purity. In any case if you were to speak to them you'd more than likely come away knowing that those same people place the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit far above anything else in this world. That's been my experience with it.

Now, whether or not we can even pray to the dead, whether or not we can ask them to pray for us IOW as we do with fellow living earthlings, is debated among some but not among the ancient churches. We all form one body of Christ, the “communion of saints”, those who’ve gone on before us along with those still here, all very much alive.

I’m not saying I haven’t observed nonsense here and there surrounding certain objects in Catholicism, but those are generally age-old cultural baggage. My main appreciation for the church lies in the theology-in the teachings themselves. Catholicism along with the Eastern churches has the better and soundest understanding of justification, grace, and the role God and the role of man's will in it all, to name some important distinctions.

So, due to the teachings of the Church, my fairly literate, semi-peasant grandmother from the foothills of the Italian Alps, long deceased, could have one of the strongest, simplest, humblest, and overall most beautiful faiths I’ve witnessed. Sun worship? What a joke. The charge or insinuation of practicing sun worship or paganism in any way is an insidiously cheap and shoddy shot by possibly disingenuous people doing sloppy self-serving historical “research”. Someone wanting to objectively study history will find abuses in terms of wrong done in Catholic history to be sure but would have to consciously overlook the preponderance of good-and the obedience of God’s will done on earth-in order to escape it. Here’s an excerpt of mine out of a recent post:

BTW, in the east and in the west the church of Christ, and there can only be one I’m sure you’d agree, has produced gobs of true prophets, real saints, those who took the gospel message and ran with it even while many others, including leaders, may’ve sat comfortably back in selfish lifestyles producing little or no fruit or worse, actually blaspheming the name of God by their actions. But the real saints produced fruit, sharing the truth to a lost and dying and hopeless, chaotic and unjust world about a God of order and justice and purpose and love and the desire to give eternal life to those who come to love as He does. And they also shared their own love by donating countless hours of time and quantities of money to help those in need, feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.

The church built hospitals and orphanages and developed the educational system including the upper level, university system, and promoted art and science and scholarship and the pursuit of excellence in general. She taught us to love our enemies rather than vanquishing them, promoting an altruism that had arguably never been seen in history before. The church presents a very big and popular target to take aim at, but she’s the ancestor of all Christians, without which Christianity would hardly be a footnote in history by now. She assembled the canon of the Bible, hammered out the doctrine of the Trinity, the Nicene creed, and the decrees on grace at the 2nd Council of Orange, as examples. But I’m sure you see yourself as numbered among a remnant elite with your own special gnosis, as many do.
 
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nolidad

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Proverbs 3
1 My son, do not forget my law. But let your heart keep my commands.

5 Trust in the Lord with all your hear. Lean not on your own understanding.

Well I will eat your share of lobster then and clams and ham! :clap:
 
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nolidad

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Not really dear friend. Perhaps you need a new bible?

Romans 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARD IN THE FLESH: [29], But HE IS A JEW, WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Hebrews 4:9 THEREFORE IT REMAINS FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD TO KEEP THE SABBATH

You are free of course to believe as you wish. For me, only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Hope this is helpful

Intentionally mistranslating the word of God to try to support you case is a dangerous path.
New International Version
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;

New Living Translation
So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God.

English Standard Version
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,

Berean Study Bible
There remains, then, a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Berean Literal Bible
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

New American Standard Bible
So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

New King James Version
There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

King James Bible
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people.

Contemporary English Version
But God has promised us a Sabbath when we will rest, even though it has not yet come.

Good News Translation
As it is, however, there still remains for God's people a rest like God's resting on the seventh day.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Therefore, a Sabbath rest remains for God's people.

International Standard Version
There remains, therefore, a Sabbath rest for the people of God to keep,

NET Bible
Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Therefore, a time of rest and worship exists for God's people.

New American Standard 1977
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

King James 2000 Bible
There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.

American King James Version
There remains therefore a rest to the people of God.

American Standard Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
There remaineth therefore a day of rest for the people of God.

Darby Bible Translation
There remains then a sabbatism to the people of God.

English Revised Version
There remaineth therefore a sabbath rest for the people of God.

Webster's Bible Translation
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Weymouth New Testament
It follows that there still remains a sabbath rest for the people of God.

World English Bible
There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

Young's Literal Translation
there doth remain, then, a sabbatic rest to the people of God,

If you had botrhered to keep it in context and not intentionally change the passage to alter its meaning, you would see this verse has nothing to do with keeping Saturday as a day of rest.

You are free to keep the Sabbath. That is between you and god. but when you seek to inpose it as a binding law on everyone else like you are- you sin against God.
 
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nolidad

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First you say you are not under the law...then you say: "Not the Mosaic with the ten written in stone which minister death, but as Paul called it the Law of Christ. Those are the ones I obey to show that Jesus made me righteous! It is the 1008 commands of the New I obey!"...then you say: "9 of the ten written in stone have been carried over. but the Sabbath was not!"...so who IS cherry picking? Make up your mind! BTW, the quote from Paul above you posted is about fasting...


Well the passage was about not eating meat or eating meat, or observing particular days and festivals, not fasting.

And yes we are under the law of the Spirit of Christ. but it is different from the mosaic law. When I speak of the law generically I am referring to the Mosaic Law and the Sabbath. But being under the law of Christ does not save, make me righteous, keep me righteous, or keep me saved. It only confers blessing for being an obedient vs. disobedient child of God!
 
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nolidad

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No one can keep all the commandments, but that is not the point. I asked you a question and you interrogate me. Do YOU believe His commandments are different than His Father (or The Spirit since you say you are under the law of The Spirit)??? A divided house can NOT stand...

Yes the Old Testament was the Mosaic Law and its 613 commands. Scripture also declares Jesus fuflilled it (thus ending it) and that it is old and obsolete!

Scripture also declares the Mosaic Law was for the nation of Israel alone and those heathen who converted to Judaism. It was never intended for the Gentile nations at all!

Israel did not obey it that is why god is going to make a new covenant with the nation of Israel "after those days" as is written i Jeremiah 31.
 
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nolidad

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Do you not sin then? Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. Death is the CURSE of the Law (Paul's "ministration of death"). The CURSE has been taken away, not the Law. Yeshua became a CURSE for us when He hung on the tree.

We all sin.

The difference is Jesus paid for my sin. Sin still pays the wages of death. Both for teh believer and unbeliever. for the unbeliever- it is the second death. For the believer- we still grow old and die!

And Jesus fulfilled the law- that means it is completed and finished. Also in Hebrews it says that the Old Mosaic law is obsolete and Paul said in Galatians that the Mosaic Law was a scxhool master only until faith came. Now that faith is come we are no longer under the school master of teh Mosaic Law!

As Paul also said the just shall live by faith and not the Law!
 
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