The challenge for Theistic Evolutionists

biggles53 said:

All that this demonstrates is ...

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Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Sayre said:

Im not intentionally disingenuous. I read the bible a lot and in my 20s had an experience I recognized as the holy spirit as defined in the bible.

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Makes sense to me -- the Bible is simply an instruction manual; at a certain level of experience, a manual is no longer needed.

TLK Valentine said:

"so what," indeed -- the advantage of relying on revelation as opposed to the book is that only the books are mutually exclusive. Once we take the books out of the equation, who's to say that both revelations cannot be true?

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Would you recognise them as "revelations" if it was not for the influence of a holy book..? Like everyone I guess, I've experienced some weird coincidental happenings from time to time.. I describe them exactly that way...coincidences.. But, had I been one who was influenced by one text or another, I might have seen them as a 'sign'...

AV1611VET said:

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

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Why would you think that a quote from a self-serving source carries any weight...?

It would like quoting from Mein Kampf to prove that the Jews are inferior...!

biggles53 said:

But, had I been one who was influenced by one text or another, I might have seen them as a 'sign'...

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That wouldn't surprise me.

Luke 11:29b This is an evil generation: they seek a sign;

Sayre, may I ask what was the nature of your "revelation"...?

biggles53 said:

It would like quoting from Mein Kampf to prove that the Jews are inferior...!

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Or quoting from The Preservation of Favoured Races to say the blacks are inferior?

AV1611VET said:

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

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Indeed -- I would suspect that once one has spoken to the Holy Spirit directly, even the most basic of "doctrines" become unnecessary.

AV1611VET said:

Or quoting from The Preservation of Favoured Races to say the blacks are inferior?

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Only if you dishonestly interpret that title.........welcome to those ranks...!

biggles53 said:

Would you recognise them as "revelations" if it was not for the influence of a holy book..? Like everyone I guess, I've experienced some weird coincidental happenings from time to time.. I describe them exactly that way...coincidences.. But, had I been one who was influenced by one text or another, I might have seen them as a 'sign'...

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But you see the difference between being influenced by a text and accepting every single word of it as literal... for lack of a better word, gospel.

A person may need a birdwatcher's guide to recognize what a peregrine falcon looks like, but once they know, they don't need the book in order to find one.

TLK Valentine said:

Indeed -- I would suspect that once one has spoken to the Holy Spirit directly, even the most basic of "doctrines" become unnecessary.

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Circular.....how would you know that this experience was the 'holy spirit' had you not been educated about its existence beforehand....?

biggles53 said:

Only if you dishonestly interpret that title.........welcome to those ranks...!

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A man who dishonestly exploits one book can just as easily dishonestly exploit any other -- which is why I take AV's Bible quotes with a grain of salt.

biggles53 said:

Only if you dishonestly interpret that title.........welcome to those ranks...!

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Oh ... well ... sorry about that.

Here, let me word it more fully:

Or quoting from On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life to say the blacks are inferior?

Better now?

TLK Valentine said:

A person may need a birdwatcher's guide to recognize what a peregrine falcon looks like, but once they know, they don't need the book in order to find one.

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You must go 404 around a phone book or a dictionary then, eh?

TLK Valentine said:

But you see the difference between being influenced by a text and accepting every single word of it as literal... for lack of a better word, gospel.

A person may need a birdwatcher's guide to recognize what a peregrine falcon looks like, but once they know, they don't need the book in order to find one.

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Terrible analogy....a falcon is a real thing..! There is evidence for its existence, evidence which can be reliably and repeatedly shared with others. When I mention the term to others, we immediately all have an, if not identical, extremely close identification with that real thing.

When you and I experience a seemingly strange experience/dream/vision/feeling, you are informed as to what that is as a result of your acceptance of its description by a holy book. I have a totally different basis for analysing it. There is no commonality in our bases for understanding, as there would be for a real object such as that falcon....

AV1611VET said:

Oh ... well ... sorry about that.

Here, let me word it more fully:

Or quoting from On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life to say the blacks are inferior?

Better now?

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I am aware if the full title....I am glancing at a copy of the book on my shelf as I write...

My comment still applies...

AV1611VET said:

You must go 404 around a phone book or a dictionary then, eh?

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Once I know the number, do I need the phone book anymore?

biggles53 said:

Terrible analogy....a falcon is a real thing..! There is evidence for its existence, evidence which can be reliably and repeatedly shared with others. When I mention the term to others, we immediately all have an, if not identical, extremely close identification with that real thing.

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Indeed -- but for a Christian, the Holy Spirit is not something they need to share with others... although many choose to. They experience it, they choose to believe that their experience was genuine, and not a hallucination or psychotic episode; that's good enough for most of them.

Remember, it's the book that makes them try to convert others to their way of thinking -- and we've already agreed to downplay its role here.

When you and I experience a seemingly strange experience/dream/vision/feeling, you are informed as to what that is as a result of your acceptance of its description by a holy book. I have a totally different basis for analysing it. There is no commonality in our bases for understanding, as there would be for a real object such as that falcon....

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But do we need a commonality? If I have a "funny feeling" about something and choose to act on it, that feeling might be inspiration, intuition, or plain dumb luck.

I don't need a commonality between us unless I'm compelling you to act on my feelings... which I choose not to do.

Originally Posted by Aman777

Seems to me like they've rejected your opinion that it's God's Literal Truth -- and who are you that they should value your opinion so highly?

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Dear Valentine, Because my view agrees with scripture, science, and history, and NO one can refute it. If they could they would have done it long ago. It's because it's God's Truth.

Right?

Indeed -- so we agree that God's Truth need not be literal in order to be Truth -- you'd be surprised how many of your fellow Christians can't even get over that particular stumbling block.

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Sorry, but I didn't agree to any such thing. The Bible is the Truth in every way, literally, allegorically, poetically, and in every other way. IF God has lied or broken any of His commandments, He can never have a perfect heaven. You only told us a partial Gospel. Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose the 3rd day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

If the scriptures hadn't said it, would it be any less true?

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No, but it's a cop out for TEs who don't believe that man was formed (Hebrew-squeezed into shape like a Potter molds the clay) and Falsely teach that we evolved from other living creatures. That is the LIE of Theistic Evolutionism.

Actually, no -- they're quite different Scriptures -- OT vs NT, and all that. 66 books written by people from all walks of life over a period of 1500 tumultuous years are anything but the SAME.

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Another of your False Assumptions, since God is the Author of ALL Scripture whether it be from the Old or the New Testament. God, the Holy Spirit, working from within the men who penned the words, told them what to write. That is WHY Genesis is proof of God since NO man of the time could have possibly known the correct scientific details which we are just now discovering.

I'd rather ask them if they believe in Jesus according to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- that's all that really matters.

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Then HOW can you tell IF they are lying or not? HOW can you try the Spirits to determine IF they are false prophets or anti-Christs? Jesus said, My sheep hear My voice. His voice is God's Holy Word which cannot be understood, except by those who have already believed the Gospel according to the Scriptures. That's because those who have NOT been born Spiritually cannot understand the writings of the Spirit. 1Cr 2:14

Nope, the question is: why can't he believe in Jesus and in evolution?

Because Jesus is the LORD God of the Old Testament and it is He who formed man of the dust of the ground, on the 3rd Day, so He knows that man did NOT evolve from the common ancestor of Apes.

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And the bigger question is: why are you so willing to cast him out? [/quote]

I cannot put him in or cast him out of anything. I just wanted to know where he was coming from, because God's Holy Word instructs me to do so. It tells me to determine whether the spirits are good or evil, whether they are of God or Satan. People who claim that we evolved instead of being a Special Creation by the Hands of Jesus, certainly do NOT know what Scripture is teaching. Beware their words, for some speak with forked tongues. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman

biggles53 said:

I am aware if the full title....I am glancing at a copy of the book on my shelf as I write...

My comment still applies...

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Of course it does.

I knew it would.

So whether I use the shortened version of the title, or whether I use the long title, your consternation is FAKE.

That's why I take very little of what you guys say with anything other than a modicum of sodium chloride.