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the centurion's confession

Discussion in 'Christian Scriptures' started by Erik Nelson, Mar 23, 2019.

  1. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    After using Microsoft Excel to generate a gospel harmony of the passion narrative...

    I find that the Centurion, who confessed Jesus as the son of God. Must have so confessed. AFTER having stabbed him in the side and witnessing the blood and water as described in John's gospel.

    Makes no sense that he would declare Jesus the son of God and THEN stab him.

    This interpretation is also the most straightforward involving no reordering of any of the individual gospel accounts

    Jesus breeds his last? The Romans are ordered to make sure and they break, the legs of the thieves and stabbed Jesus in the side. At THAT moment there was an earthquake. Which shook the region and rent the veil of the temple?

    At that point the Centurion. Bloody spear in hand set down the bloody spear and said wow that was the son of God.

    At the EXACT moment that the Centurions Spear . Pierced the side of Jesus and split his flesh open. An earthquake shook the temple and split open the veil.


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  2. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Member

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    Thanks for the harmonization of the gospel accounts! I have found so many insights that I haven't seen before until I harmonized the accounts. It is in the signs & miracles & wonders that further substantiate that Jesus is indeed THE Son of God, the second Person in the Trinity who has always possessed the very nature of God, being equal with the Father. (Phil 2:1-11; John 5:16-18; 10:30)
     
  3. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    I always assumed the centurion that confessed was more of a bystander, not the one that actual drove the spear into Jesus' side. If it was like a typical military detail, not everybody there would have necessarily been all that busy. He might have been there for potential crowd control or as a show of power. After all, that was the main point of crucifixion, to send the message "We are the state and we can do this to you".
     
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  4. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If the harmonisation suggested to me by the Microsoft Excel parallel accounts is correct. Then no sooner did the Centurion. Drive his spear into the man on the cross. Then the ground under his feet began to shake. And the lintel and veil of the temple. Were sundered? In terms of special effects. It would have seemed like he had somehow driven his spear into the temple itself as if with some sort of Voodoo Doll. For want if any are worthier words of comparison.
     
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  5. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 Ship of Fools Supporter

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    The image of the temple veil being torn, I believe, has more to do with the sacrifice being complete and the temple "closed to business" so to speak.
     
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  6. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    The Centurion (an officer) wasn't the one that pierced Christ's side, but one of the soldiers under his command (John 19:34).

    Also, Christ was dead when they pierced Him (John 19:33), so the earthquake, the rending of the veil and the Centurion's confession took place before that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  7. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Well-Known Member

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    Usually the centurions were present to "officially report" back to the Roman governor that the criminals were dead.

    The Roman army was structured that you basically worked your way up in the ranks. It was an all voluntary force that you enlisted for life. What ever legion you were assigned to you stayed in for life. Rome did not "rotate" soldiers to "duty stations". They rotated legions. Major perk for the army though was that once you surpassed 20 years of service, you became a Roman citizen. Soldiers over 40 were assigned to things like prison guard duty. Pontius Pilate, obviously would have also been in the army. Soldiers also could not be executed via crucifixion. The army was considered an honorable occupation and if you shamed your legion, you usually committed suicide; or your brothers in arms would kill you. Your legion was your family.

    The Antonia fortress was built by Herod the Great in honor of Marc Antony. And the legion that occupied the Antonia fortress; (Legion was about 5000 soldiers. So besides "support staff" Antonia held between 8 to 10,000 people.) was a "retired" legion. Soldiers families (unless they were in the army themselves - which was common) did not live on military installations. They lived in the community.

    The soldiers who were at Antonia; the legion had been there at least 10 years. So they were certainly familiar with the culture around them.

    We often don't think about the Roman soldiers themselves; but they were part of the "woodwork" of the community. What's commonly thought of as "the temple mount" today; is actually what's left of the Antonia fortress. The temple was south of that and one could not exit the Antonia fortress to get into the community without walking through the court of the gentiles. So the soldiers themselves were around the temple all the time. They had at the very least, a minimal awareness of who Jesus was.

    The dividing of Jesus's clothing and the piercing of His side. The Scriptures say these things were done as a fulfillment of prophecy. Now what's interesting is that these were decisions the centurion and the soldiers themselves made. Now how did they know this was a fulfillment of prophecy? They had to have gotten that information from someone because their actions were deliberate.

    Other interesting tidbit factoid! The crucifixion happened on the Mt. of Olives, near the Joseph of Aramathia's tomb and in direct enough line of sight of the temple that the soldiers witnessed the veil being torn. They were probably pretty much right next to the red heifer alter. Paul talks about this, as the Christians knowing this area as being "where the Lord was crucified".

    So yeah, the centurion and the soldiers obviously knew a lot more than we give them credit for!

    I'll have to look this up; but you are probably right!
     
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  8. Lost4words

    Lost4words Like a puppy, i need guidance. Supporter

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    A Centurion would order one of his men to carry out such an act.
     
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  9. icxn

    icxn Bραδύγλωσσος αἰπόλος μαθητεύων κνίζειν συκάμινα

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    You don't have to look far; it's right there in the spreadsheet Erik posted.
     
  10. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Well-Known Member

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    Well, I meant I wanted to study it a little more.
     
  11. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So you're saying there was a major miracle. The Centurion, the ranking officer on scene declared. The man on the cross was the son of God...

    And then he turned right around and ordered one of his subordinates to stab the son of God to make sure that the son of God was dead?!

    And the soldier carried out that order?!

    Who knows? But I offer an alternate harmonisation of the gospel accounts of the aftermath of the crucifixion.

    I think it's perfectly plausible that the Centurions confession. Was brought about by the miracles occuring? After. Jesus was already dead on the cross.
     
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  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
    Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    First off, it wasn't one guy who said this but the Centurion and others with him.
    Second, they saw dead people come back to life so that with the other things scared them.

    Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    This verse is the same time as verse 50 above. The Earthquake and the dead rising happened at this time and that's when some people said Christ was the son of God.


    Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
    Joh 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
    Joh 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
    Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

    By the time this all happens, it's after the other events and certainly is different soldiers coming to take care of the ones on the crosses. And being the others on the crosses were still alive, the soldiers would have waited until they died before taking people down although I suppose they could have started taking Christ down since he was already dead.
     
  13. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All of the gospels summarize 3 and a half years of Jesus is ministry on Earth. In 20 or so chapters.

    Lots of time may elapse between verses.

    The Gospel Harmony, I offered. Shows this.

    Seems most likely that the confession of faith was the climax of the crucifixion occurring at the very end after everything else had occurred.

    It makes no sense, that the guards would declare Jesus the son of God and then stab him.
     
  14. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    The soldiers wanted to make doubly sure that Christ was dead. So one of their number inflicted a wound in his side, piercing the heart, and thus fatal if Christ was still living.

    When the soldier withdrew his lance, blood and water flowed from Jesus' side. This was strange.

    However, John insists upon it; he, an eye-witness, saw what he describes here. Both should be impressed upon believers: that Christ died, and that this phenomenon occured at his side's piercing.

    The blood that flowed from Christ's side was to wash away the world's sins. It's reconciliation's blood, God's blood, wherewith God has cleansed people from their sins.

    Christ's blood's our redemption's treasure, our sins' payment. For by his death and through his blood, Christ has paid for our death, in which we, because of our sins, are drowned.

    Christ's blood's our advocate with God, and cries for us to God and so earns for us God's grace. So Christ's blood and water is our comfort. For therein consists our salvation: in the blood's our redemption; in the water there's our purging from sins.

    This we should learn and thank God for God's love, and Christ for his death.
     
  15. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Proof of the crucifixion - LIFE 97.9

    Warner says there is a piece of hidden science in Scripture that proves Jesus did die on the cross.

    “It’s that passage in the Gospel of John where Jesus is stabbed with the spear and out of His body comes a separation of blood and water. What is the water?”
    ...
    The earliest believers would have been very confused by this phenomenon. However, what they didn’t know was that this water coming from Jesus was scientific proof that Jesus actually died of cardiac arrest.

    “He dies on that cross and we know He suffers cardiac arrest and dies because He’s suffering from now what’s called PLEURAL EFFUSION, where water collects in your chest cavity, in your lungs. If you do stab a lung that has water in it, you will see the separation of blood and water, but you don’t get there unless you’ve already died on that cross.”
     
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  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    That's because they didn't stab him, other soldiers did.
     
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    The heart is not on the side...they only stabbed him to make sure he was dead. It was not a stab meant to kill someone but only to shock the body if it were still alive.
     
  18. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    So you say. I respect your opinion even while dosagreeing with it.
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Doesn't it say they believed he was dead? Why stab him in the heart (which is not in his side) to try to kill him?
     
  20. Ttalkkugjil

    Ttalkkugjil Spiritual Director

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    They had an idea that he was dead. They wanted to be doubly sure.
     
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