ljglazner

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What difference does it make?

That is a straightforward question. This is a "Christian Only" theology section, so I'm presuming nobody here has the intention of tearing down anyone's faith.

So what difference do you think it makes that several different ancient amateur writers, writing decades after the event from second-hand reports, didn't get all their dates lined up?

Sorry.. I posted without commenting accidentally. Why it makes a difference is that we must know exactly how accurate the Bible is to know how much we can trust it. I have seen a number of these types of contradiction be resolved with new historical evidence; so far, by my count, the Bible has always been right. That matters. If we can't trust the Bible to get the facts straight, how do we know we can trust it's doctrine?
 
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RDKirk

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Sorry.. I posted without commenting accidentally. Why it makes a difference is that we must know exactly how accurate the Bible is to know how much we can trust it. I have seen a number of these types of contradiction be resolved with new historical evidence; so far, by my count, the Bible has always been right. That matters. If we can't trust the Bible to get the facts straight, how do we know we can trust it's doctrine?

The bible is a created thing. A Christian's trust should be in God, and his relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit validates the truth of the bible, not archeologists.
 
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ljglazner

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The bible is a created thing. A Christian's trust should be in God, and his relationship with Jesus through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit validates the truth of the bible, not archeologists.
The Bible is the only way we know much about God. We can deduce things from nature and also many hear God's voice, but the way we know if we are getting right what we deduce from nature or that it really is God's voice we are hearing is that it matches the Bible. I have always felt it was a direct contradiction when people say they believe in Jesus and salvation and such but do not believe the Bible. The Bible is the place we learned about Jesus and Salvation and such. If you have a book and it is accurate, then you believe it. If you have a book that is not always accurate, like a fiction version of things that happened in WWII for instance, you have to go to a place that is trustworthy to find out if the things in the fiction work are historically accurate. Right? So we need to know if the Bible is accurate, 90% accurate or inaccurate, because we need to know if it is a fiction work with some historic things in it, or a historically accurate source.
 
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RDKirk

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The Bible is the only way we know much about God. We can deduce things from nature and also many hear God's voice, but the way we know if we are getting right what we deduce from nature or that it really is God's voice we are hearing is that it matches the Bible. I have always felt it was a direct contradiction when people say they believe in Jesus and salvation and such but do not believe the Bible. The Bible is the place we learned about Jesus and Salvation and such. If you have a book and it is accurate, then you believe it. If you have a book that is not always accurate, like a fiction version of things that happened in WWII for instance, you have to go to a place that is trustworthy to find out if the things in the fiction work are historically accurate. Right? So we need to know if the Bible is accurate, 90% accurate or inaccurate, because we need to know if it is a fiction work with some historic things in it, or a historically accurate source.

The bible's only claim for itself is that it is a syllabus in righteousness. It doesn't claim for itself to be a text in archaeology or astronomy or geology or biology. How do you prove righteousness in the material world? What do you compare it to for righteousness?

No, the bible is not the only way we know about God.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. -- Romans 8

It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. -- 1 John 5

The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. -- 1 John 3

And when that Spirit points us to the bible, we believe that Spirit and believe the bible because of that Spirit.

Now, if a person does not have that Spirit dwelling within him Who tells him that the bible is true, then that person is in the unfortunate position of depending on created things to validate other created things...which means his faith is vulnerable because Satan can manipulate created things.

That person has to depend on his own understanding of a universe that scripture itself says is too wondrous to understand, and when he runs into the wall of his understanding, he has to deny it, like flatearthers denying that the earth is not flat (something even the early Christians had no trouble accepting).
 
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ljglazner

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The bible's only claim for itself is that it is a syllabus in righteousness. It doesn't claim for itself to be a text in archaeology or astronomy or geology or biology. How do you prove righteousness in the material world? What do you compare it to for righteousness?

No, the bible is not the only way we know about God.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. -- Romans 8

It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. -- 1 John 5

The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. -- 1 John 3

And when that Spirit points us to the bible, we believe that Spirit and believe the bible because of that Spirit.

Now, if a person does not have that Spirit dwelling within him Who tells him that the bible is true, then that person is in the unfortunate position of depending on created things to validate other created things...which means his faith is vulnerable because Satan can manipulate created things.

That person has to depend on his own understanding of a universe that scripture itself says is too wondrous to understand, and when he runs into the wall of his understanding, he has to deny it, like flatearthers denying that the earth is not flat (something even the early Christians had no trouble accepting).
Well said. I couldn't agree more!
 
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ljglazner

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The writers of the NT were all inspired by the Holy Spirit who knows everything. If there are apparent inconsistencies, they are only apparent. If we knew it all, we would see that these things are actually quite consistent; we just don't know yet how they all fit together. We are to simply trust the Word of God and not get caught up in all these controversies. The scriptures always trump the other sources of information. If Josephus and other historians seem to disagree with the scriptures, they are patently wrong.
I think that is a great attitude. I would add one caveat; that when we do not worry about reality outside of our understanding of scripture, we can appear foolish. I'm thinking of the Roman Catholic stance against a round earth because the Bible says it has four corners. I used to feel certain there were EXACTLY the same number of stars in the universe as sands on the sea shore because of the Hebrew expression that compared the two, "As many as the sands on the sea shore and the stars in the heavens." Now I understand that this was referring to OTHER things that were too many to count. We must be seekers of TRUTH, not defenders of our opinion.
 
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Luke says in Chapter 1 that the appearance of the angel took place in the days of Herod the KING. Archelaus was only an ethnarch; after Herod the great, there wasn't another Herod The King until Herod Agrippa, well after the Resurrection! So Luke agrees with Matthew as to the timing of the Birth of Christ and all events surrounding it, including Augustus's issue of the decree relating to the census and the (probably voluntary) travelling of Jews to their own cities. The only apparent exception is the timing of the carrying out of the census itself, if we accept that Quirinius could not have been Governor of Syria until after the deposition of Archelaus.

It is quite reasonable to suppose that in this case the execution of the census did get delayed (Translation of Luke 2:2 is far from straightforward, bearing in mind that in this section of the gospel Luke was writing in professional Greek. The word translated "first" is an adjective, not an adverb, but cannot be being used as as an adjective qualifying the subject, as the definite article preceding it is missing. It could be a predicate, in which case the verse could perhaps be translated "This the enrolling was a first. It came about when Cyrenius was ruling Syria" - I'm tempted to put "finally" in the second sentence!). King Herod was far more interested in trying to get rid of the Messiah by carrying out a massacre than he was in conducting a census and he died pretty soon afterwards. Archelaus was, by all accounts, hopeless. So it would not be surprising if Augustus asked Quirinius to take over Syria and get the job finally done.

This time, with Judaea being carved up, people might not have been so bothered about going to their own city, certainly not Joseph, who might have already been enrolled at Nazareth (Hence Luke's "as was supposed" genealogy in Chapter 3), Antipas being more efficient than Archelaus. Also the belief (said to be one of the factors sparking Judas's rebellion) that a census brought a divine curse would have been strengthened by the occurrence in the early stages of a massacre in the Bethlehem area.
 
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Luke says in Chapter 1 that the appearance of the angel took place in the days of Herod the KING. Archelaus was only an ethnarch; after Herod the great, there wasn't another Herod The King until Herod Agrippa, well after the Resurrection! So Luke agrees with Matthew as to the timing of the Birth of Christ and all events surrounding it, including Augustus's issue of the decree relating to the census and the (probably voluntary) travelling of Jews to their own cities. The only apparent exception is the timing of the carrying out of the census itself, if we accept that Quirinius could not have been Governor of Syria until after the deposition of Archelaus.

It is quite reasonable to suppose that in this case the execution of the census did get delayed (Translation of Luke 2:2 is far from straightforward, bearing in mind that in this section of the gospel Luke was writing in professional Greek. The word translated "first" is an adjective, not an adverb, but cannot be being used as as an adjective qualifying the subject, as the definite article preceding it is missing. It could be a predicate, in which case the verse could perhaps be translated "This the enrolling was a first. It came about when Cyrenius was ruling Syria" - I'm tempted to put "finally" in the second sentence!). King Herod was far more interested in trying to get rid of the Messiah by carrying out a massacre than he was in conducting a census and he died pretty soon afterwards. Archelaus was, by all accounts, hopeless. So it would not be surprising if Augustus asked Quirinius to take over Syria and get the job finally done.

This time, with Judaea being carved up, people might not have been so bothered about going to their own city, certainly not Joseph, who might have already been enrolled at Nazareth (Hence Luke's "as was supposed" genealogy in Chapter 3), Antipas being more efficient than Archelaus. Also the belief (said to be one of the factors sparking Judas's rebellion) that a census brought a divine curse would have been strengthened by the occurrence in the early stages of a massacre in the Bethlehem area.
This again presupposes that the Romans would have an interest in carrying out a census in a client state, something for which we have no support.

The other problem is that Jewish writers do not clearly differentiate titles like Ethnarch, Tetrach or such from King. As has been argued earlier, they did not even properly record if someone was governor or not.

Still a good attempt, but not definitive though. A delayed census simply makes little sense since Josephus clearly indicates that the census of Quirinius was the first Roman census. The Romans would have little interest in a census 10 years out of date for taxation purposes and again if carried our under Herod the Great we have no record of the Romans demanding such of client kings.
 
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The command went out from Augustus that all the world should be enrolled and this command may well have been reported in client states, leading, in the case in question, to Jews uprooting themselves in readiness for a coming census, which, if Quid est is right and I was wrong (which may well be the case), had never been intended to include the area in question.
Regarding Quid est's "other problem", it is true that Matthew and Mark, in the course of their narratives, stray into calling the tetrarch "the king" or "King Herod", but this would have been only a courtesy title - They do not use "Herod the King" as an identifying title for the Tetrarch. Luke does not call him King at any point, and furthermore, "in the days of Herod the King" would not be used to identify a period when there were at least two Herods in power, neither of whom was a king.
By the way, I trust that Quid est Veritas is writing in a different spirit from that in which Pilate said it (What he meant, of course, was "What does truth matter?")!
 
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The command went out from Augustus that all the world should be enrolled and this command may well have been reported in client states, leading, in the case in question, to Jews uprooting themselves in readiness for a coming census, which, if Quid est is right and I was wrong (which may well be the case), had never been intended to include the area in question.
This is a misconception. Augustus never decreed a census for the whole Roman world at the same time. Tacitus and Suetonius would most definitely have mentioned this, as would Augustus have done so on his Ars Pacis. I mean they all mentioned his lustra of Roman citizens.

The text itself also need not be read in this manner, only that Augustus said everyone must be counted. This would be the manner that first and second century readers would obviously have understood it as they would be used to regular Roman Indictions and censusses for taxation. As there was likely never such a specific command issued, so to blame it for Joseph in confusion travelling far away for a non-existent census is fairly implausible.
Again though, Joseph need not have travelled for a census nor did the Romans conduct censusses in client states.

Regarding Quid est's "other problem", it is true that Matthew and Mark, in the course of their narratives, stray into calling the tetrarch "the king" or "King Herod", but this would have been only a courtesy title - They do not use "Herod the King" as an identifying title for the Tetrarch. Luke does not call him King at any point, and furthermore, "in the days of Herod the King" would not be used to identify a period when there were at least two Herods in power, neither of whom was a king.
Luke says: "in the days of Herod, King of Judaea", not just blithely Herod the King, in John the Baptist's birth narrative.
By your reasoning then, why would Luke just specify Judaea as Herod the Great ruled a far greater area and thus we can conclude Luke is referencing Herod Archelaus. This would fit his broader narrative and the historic Census of Quirinius as well.
Thus we still have a disagreement with Matthew's narrative which clearly means Herod the Great as he even mentions Archelaus separately later after the flight to Egypt is completed. Archelaus is called king in most Jewish and Greek sources, even if the Romans never allowed him the full title.
I don't think taking such liberties with titulature really solves our problem at all.
By the way, I trust that Quid est Veritas is writing in a different spirit from that in which Pilate said it (What he meant, of course, was "What does truth matter?")!
I most certainly am! I think Pilate said it in the manner of the Greek Philosophical School of Skepticism in my own view, more in line with "Truth cannot be ascertained". This is certainly apt here as I think the problem of this Census is very uncertain. Either we are missing crucial data from the Roman side or the gospel writers (or copyists or redactors or translators) got their Herods confused, in my own view.
I don't think it is a big problem though as such minor historical disagreements are common even in the secular narrative.
 
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This is a misconception. Augustus never decreed a census for the whole Roman world at the same time. Tacitus and Suetonius would most definitely have mentioned this, as would Augustus have done so on his Ars Pacis. I mean they all mentioned his lustra of Roman citizens.

The text itself also need not be read in this manner, only that Augustus said everyone must be counted. This would be the manner that first and second century readers would obviously have understood it as they would be used to regular Roman Indictions and censusses for taxation. As there was likely never such a specific command issued, so to blame it for Joseph in confusion travelling far away for a non-existent census is fairly implausible.
Again though, Joseph need not have travelled for a census nor did the Romans conduct censusses in client states.


Luke says: "in the days of Herod, King of Judaea", not just blithely Herod the King, in John the Baptist's birth narrative.
By your reasoning then, why would Luke just specify Judaea as Herod the Great ruled a far greater area and thus we can conclude Luke is referencing Herod Archelaus. This would fit his broader narrative and the historic Census of Quirinius as well.
Thus we still have a disagreement with Matthew's narrative which clearly means Herod the Great as he even mentions Archelaus separately later after the flight to Egypt is completed. Archelaus is called king in most Jewish and Greek sources, even if the Romans never allowed him the full title.
I don't think taking such liberties with titulature really solves our problem at all.

I most certainly am! I think Pilate said it in the manner of the Greek Philosophical School of Skepticism in my own view, more in line with "Truth cannot be ascertained". This is certainly apt here as I think the problem of this Census is very uncertain. Either we are missing crucial data from the Roman side or the gospel writers (or copyists or redactors or translators) got their Herods confused, in my own view.
I don't think it is a big problem though as such minor historical disagreements are common even in the secular narrative.
 
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Wasn't the "much greater area" ruled by Herod the Great called, simply, Judea (it would not have been spelled ioudia in Greek, would it?), and split up into Judaea, Galilee/Perea, and Iturea/Trachonitis only after Herod the Great's death? In which case, Luke is quite right in calling Herod the Great Herod King of Judaea. Also Luke is careful to list a number of people in power simultaneously in 3:1-2: Would he have been content to only mention Herod Archelaus in Chap 1, when Antipas and Philip also ruled?
 
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Wasn't the "much greater area" ruled by Herod the Great called, simply, Judea (it would not have been spelled ioudia in Greek, would it?), and split up into Judaea, Galilee/Perea, and Iturea/Trachonitis only after Herod the Great's death? In which case, Luke is quite right in calling Herod the Great Herod King of Judaea.
No. Herod the Great's title was technically King of the Jews (granted by Rome in 40 BC according to Josephus and 39 according to Appian), not King of Judaea. This is a subtle, but important difference, like Louis Phillipe being 'King of the French' instead of the Bourbon 'of France'.

We see this referenced in Matthew when the Magi ask about a new King of the Jews and again when Jesus is crucified. Pilate writes it on the titulus over the cross, thus a Roman grants the title to Jesus as well, a nice juxtaposition to the secular reign of Herod the Great, but I digress.

Regardless, to Romans and Greeks the whole levant was loosely termed Syria. The later province of Judaea was in fact a subdivision of Roman Syria, hence the reference to Quirinius its governor. Judaea to Jewish individuals refers to the old Juda, the southern Kingdom of the OT. To the Romans Judaea meant very little, like if I reference the Limpopo province of South Africa, then most will likely have little idea what I am talking about. First century writers would mention Herod's Imperium (ie of Jews) as his identifier and if referencing his territory they would likely list the various areas like Judaea, Samaria, Idumaea, Galilee etc. Often Imperium and a territory were co-terminous, but not in Herod the Great's case. A good example of what I am talking about is when 'provinces' were granted to proconsuls to wage a specific war, like when Sulla was given the provincia/imperium to fight the Mithridatic War or Pompey to fight mediterranean piracy.

We see in the gospel that a lot of effort is made to differentiate Galileans from Judaeans and we see Idumaeans, Samaritans and so forth clearly identified as such in the texts of the first century. We tend to see titles as referencing territory, but the Roman concept of Imperium is quite different. It references a sphere of influence which extends beyond territory to individuals as well, hence Pilate sends Jesus to Herod Antipas as he falls in his Imperium. Often Imperium overlapped other's territory as when Pompey was granted Imperium over the mediterranean coast without the provincial governors losing sway here either.
Herod the Great held Imperium over all the Jews, thus the Romans expected him to keep order wherever Jews were found, whether it was within his territory or not.

While it is possible that Luke could reference Herod as King of Judaea in a similar manner as people call Elizabeth II the Queen of England instead of the UK, this seems out of character to the otherwise careful and precise history Luke had written. As you mentioned, he lists multiple rulers and gives precise information to fully place it in the right context. Such sloppy titulature from Luke seems unlikely.

Also Luke is careful to list a number of people in power simultaneously in 3:1-2: Would he have been content to only mention Herod Archelaus in Chap 1, when Antipas and Philip also ruled?
The question can equally be asked why he didn't mention multiple people then as well? He later mentions Tiberius, the High Priest, the Governor etc. in chapter 3.

The fact is Luke does even if a few less than in chapter 3: He mentions Augustus, Quirinius and Herod. Chapter 1 is dated sufficiently by the references in Chapter 2 as both are set a few months apart. Quirinius and his census though suggests the Herod here is Archelaus.

The difference is that Chapter 3 sets the epoch based on various methods of dating for the various areas in which the gospel is set. It is necessary to mention the whole list to securely establish roughly when it occurred as it is a much longer period.
The first two chapters are only set in Judaea, so referencing its ruler, the Emperor, the Syrian governor and an important event, the first Roman census, should be more than sufficient to date it.
 
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No. Herod the Great's title was technically King of the Jews (granted by Rome in 40 BC according to Josephus and 39 according to Appian), not King of Judaea. This is a subtle, but important difference, like Louis Phillipe being 'King of the French' instead of the Bourbon 'of France'.

We see this referenced in Matthew when the Magi ask about a new King of the Jews and again when Jesus is crucified. Pilate writes it on the titulus over the cross, thus a Roman grants the title to Jesus as well, a nice juxtaposition to the secular reign of Herod the Great, but I digress.

Regardless, to Romans and Greeks the whole levant was loosely termed Syria. The later province of Judaea was in fact a subdivision of Roman Syria, hence the reference to Quirinius its governor. Judaea to Jewish individuals refers to the old Juda, the southern Kingdom of the OT. To the Romans Judaea meant very little, like if I reference the Limpopo province of South Africa, then most will likely have little idea what I am talking about. First century writers would mention Herod's Imperium (ie of Jews) as his identifier and if referencing his territory they would likely list the various areas like Judaea, Samaria, Idumaea, Galilee etc. Often Imperium and a territory were co-terminous, but not in Herod the Great's case. A good example of what I am talking about is when 'provinces' were granted to proconsuls to wage a specific war, like when Sulla was given the provincia/imperium to fight the Mithridatic War or Pompey to fight mediterranean piracy.

We see in the gospel that a lot of effort is made to differentiate Galileans from Judaeans and we see Idumaeans, Samaritans and so forth clearly identified as such in the texts of the first century. We tend to see titles as referencing territory, but the Roman concept of Imperium is quite different. It references a sphere of influence which extends beyond territory to individuals as well, hence Pilate sends Jesus to Herod Antipas as he falls in his Imperium. Often Imperium overlapped other's territory as when Pompey was granted Imperium over the mediterranean coast without the provincial governors losing sway here either.
Herod the Great held Imperium over all the Jews, thus the Romans expected him to keep order wherever Jews were found, whether it was within his territory or not.

While it is possible that Luke could reference Herod as King of Judaea in a similar manner as people call Elizabeth II the Queen of England instead of the UK, this seems out of character to the otherwise careful and precise history Luke had written. As you mentioned, he lists multiple rulers and gives precise information to fully place it in the right context. Such sloppy titulature from Luke seems unlikely.


The question can equally be asked why he didn't mention multiple people then as well? He later mentions Tiberius, the High Priest, the Governor etc. in chapter 3.

The fact is Luke does even if a few less than in chapter 3: He mentions Augustus, Quirinius and Herod. Chapter 1 is dated sufficiently by the references in Chapter 2 as both are set a few months apart. Quirinius and his census though suggests the Herod here is Archelaus.

The difference is that Chapter 3 sets the epoch based on various methods of dating for the various areas in which the gospel is set. It is necessary to mention the whole list to securely establish roughly when it occurred as it is a much longer period.
The first two chapters are only set in Judaea, so referencing its ruler, the Emperor, the Syrian governor and an important event, the first Roman census, should be more than sufficient to date it.
 
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Wouldn't "In the days of Herod King of the Jews" have "stuck in Luke's throat" even more than "but rather was made worse"? "King of Judaea" would seem far more palatable, and it did accurately describe the territory over which Herod reigned.
My thesis, as well you know, is that the census for which the Jews made such extensive preparation in BC 7-4 may not have materialized, unless Quirinius had some responsibility for Syria at that time, in which case it would be distinct from that following the reign of Archelaus.
 
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Wouldn't "In the days of Herod King of the Jews" have "stuck in Luke's throat" even more than "but rather was made worse"? "King of Judaea" would seem far more palatable, and it did accurately describe the territory over which Herod reigned.
Not that accurately as I explained above. King of Judaea fits Archelaus much better especially with the ancilliary information of Quirinius's census.
It is certainly possible that Luke anachronistically gave Herod the Great the title for stylistic reasons or such, but it is not definite nor highly likely.

My thesis, as well you know, is that the census for which the Jews made such extensive preparation in BC 7-4 may not have materialized, unless Quirinius had some responsibility for Syria at that time, in which case it would be distinct from that following the reign of Archelaus.
Certainly a possibility that it was a failed attempt at a census for whatever reason, but a delayed result is unlikely since Rome would not be overly interested in 10 year old results. It is quite definite that Quirinius carried out a census in 6 AD since a revolt against it occurred at this time.
 
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Not that accurately as I explained above. King of Judaea fits Archelaus much better especially with the ancilliary information of Quirinius's census.
It is certainly possible that Luke anachronistically gave Herod the Great the title for stylistic reasons or such, but it is not definite nor highly likely.
What evidence have you that the whole area over which Herod the Great reigned was not called Judaea in his time?
 
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What evidence have you that the whole area over which Herod the Great reigned was not called Judaea in his time?
Flavius Josephus - Antiquities of the Jews:

"In the limits of Samaria and Judea lies the village Anuath, which is also named Borceos. This is the northern boundary of Judea. The southern parts of Judea, if they be measured lengthways, are bounded by a village adjoining to the confines of Arabia; the Jews that dwell there call it Jordan. However, its breadth is extended from the river Jordan to Joppa. The city Jerusalem is situated in the very middle; on which account some have, with sagacity enough, called that city the Navel of the country. Nor indeed is Judea destitute of such delights as come from the sea, since its maritime places extend as far as Ptolemais: it was parted into eleven portions, of which the royal city Jerusalem was the supreme, and presided over all the neighboring country, as the head does over the body. As to the other cities that were inferior to it, they presided over their several toparchies; Gophna was the second of those cities, and next to that Acrabatta, after them Thamna, and Lydda, and Emmaus and Pella, and Idumaea, and En-Gedi, and Herodium, and Jericho; and after them came Jamnia and Joppa, as presiding over the neighboring people; and besides these there was the region of Gamala, and Gaulonitis, and Batanea, and Trachonitis, which are also parts of the kingdom of Agrippa. This country begins at Mount Libanus, and the fountains of Jordan, and reaches breadthways to the lake of Tiberias; and in length is extended from a village called Arpha, as far as Julias. Its inhabitants are a mixture of Jews and Syrians. And thus have I, with all possible brevity, described the country of Judea, and those that lie round about it."
 
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That's what they were called when Josephus was writing. What evidence have you that the areas didn't become officially distinct at the time Herod the Great's kingdom was divided and not before? What evidence have you that the whole area was not called Judea before the death of Herod the Great?
 
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Deadworm

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The best approach is to collect all the relevant data and then determine which perspective makes the best sense of all the data. The best chance for this approach to get us anywhere is to look for synchronizations of independent items of historical information. 3 such details converge to support 7-8 BC as the date of Jesus' birth:

(1) Contemporary Egypt conducted a census every 14 years. If this census range also applied to Palestine at the turn of the eras, then a census in 7-8 BC would be expected because the Quirinius census reported by Josephus was taken in 6-7 AD.

(2) As Coulter points out, the 7-8 BC range fits nicely with the Augustus census decree in 8 BC. [Read The Internet Classics Archive | The Deeds of the Divine Augustus by Augustus]

(3) In his magisterial book "The Birth of the Messiah," Raymond Brown convincingly argues that the best candidate for "The Star of Bethlehem" is the triple conjunction of Jupiter, Saturn, and Mars in 7 BC. Other "star" candidates cannot explain why magi would construe this as a sign that the Messiah or a great world ruler would be born in Judea. In fact, when Jupiter and Saturn again entered a conjunction in the 1500s s AD, rabbis were again expecting the Messiah's imminent arrival. The synchronization of this planetary conjunction with (1)-(2) above provides the best case for the date of Jesus' birth.

These synchronizations seem significant regardless of whether (a) Luke is correct or designating Quirinius as the earlier census taker or (b) the 2nd census in 6-7 AD can be viewed as the completion of a 2-step census begun in 7-8 BC.

The question of whether Joseph would be expected to enroll in the census in the town of his ancestry is complicated by the conflicting impressions created by the Birth Narratives in Matthew and Luke. Luke creates the impression that Joseph resides in Nazareth. But Matthew implies that Joseph resides in Bethlehem and only relocates to Nazareth to avoid further persecution from Herod who slaughtered innocent babies in Bethlehem. It seems academically dishonest to try to harmonize these discrepant traditions by surmising that Joseph was an itinerant worker in Nazareth whose residence was in fact originally in Bethlehem.

It astounds me that posters can ask why this mystery really matters. Many honest, if misguided, scholars have dismissed the virgin birth doctrine on the basis of these and other discrepancies in the Birth Narratives, combined with other virgin birth mythology in the Ancient Near East. Neither Paul nor Mark (both of whom precede the Matthean and Lucan Infancy Narratives) mention the virgin birth. Neither does John. Worse still, the pre-Pauline liturgical fragment in Romans 1:3-4 addresses Jesus' birth, but calls Him "a sperm (Greek: "sperma") of David" when an allusion to the virgin birth would be expected if the virgin birth tradition were known to Paul. On the other hand, an ancient Jewish Christian tradition reports that Jesus' brothers traveled around, defending Jesus' Davidic genealogy, though we don't know whether they defended the Matthean or Lucan version or neither. If this tradition is valid, then it probably implies that Jesus' brothers (through Mary) are the source of the virgin birth tradition. But in the end all this is mere speculation. Still, I commend posters for their scholarly research and excellent debate on this difficult issue.
 
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