The carnality of offense

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
22,247
2,918
46
PA
Visit site
✟132,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"I'm offended".

How many times in our lives have we heard that statement? Or perhaps a better question would be, how many times in our lives have we made that statement?

It has often been said that offense is not given, it's taken, but I believe that statement is only half true. Offense most certainly can be given. It is the intent and motive of the speaker that determines whether offense was given. Have you ever heard someone say that they are going to do something just because they know it will get a rise out of another person? That person is choosing to give offense, the goal being to evoke a negative reaction from the one they are offending.

However, even when offense is given, it must also be taken to be effective. Just because someone gives you offense doesn't mean you should take it. ;)

In 1 Corinthians 13:5, the Amplified Bible talks about the Love that we are all supposed to exhibit and what our response to offenses should be like (emphasis added);
1 Corinthians 13:5 (AMP)
It (Love) is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God’s love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].
Note that the Love of God is not touchy and it takes no account of the evil done to it. When we choose to take offense, whether it was given or not, we are choosing to be touchy. We are choosing to take account of it. We are choosing to pay attention to it.

Proverbs tells us this;
Proverbs 19:11 (ESV)
Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

Overlooking an offense goes against our human nature. When we are offended, our carnal flesh desires for everyone to know it, to see it. That's why we announce "I'm offended", because it places the attention on us. But in choosing to take offense, we are also choosing to feed our flesh.

Overlooking an offense requires an active demonstration of the Love of God that lives and abides within us. It requires us to crucify our flesh. It's not fair.

Tenth Avenue North correctly states in their song "Losing" that when we forgive an offense, we feel like the one that is "losing". The lyrics state;
Why do we think that hate's gonna change their heart?
We're up in arms over wars that don't need to be fought
But pride won't let us lay our weapons on the ground
We build our bridges up but just to burn them down
We think pain is owed apologies and then it'll stop
But truth be told it doesn't matter if they're sorry or not
Freedom comes when we surrender to the sound
Of mercy and Your grace, Father, send Your angels down

Tenth Avenue North: Losing
Pride, insecurity and immaturity prevent us from overlooking offenses. We need to let people know that what that person said about us is not true or what they did was wrong and offensive. The insecurity that we possess in our flesh desires a vindication for the wrongs we've suffered. The immaturity in us requires an apology. But God tells us that we should not repay those who wrong us;
Romans 12:19 (AMP)
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave the way open for [God’s] wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay (requite), says the Lord.
Our flesh feels like if we just had an apology, everything would be better. An apology that is demanded is a result of our carnal flesh's need for restitution. But as the lyrics above state, it really doesn't matter if they're sorry or not. Freedom comes when we surrender to God's grace and mercy, or more accurately when we demonstrate that grace and mercy to those who offend us.

It does no one any good to have an academic discussion about the grace and mercy of God, claiming to understand His grace and mercy while failing to demonstrate it pragmatically. There is no better time to demonstrate one's understanding of the grace of God than when offense comes. When the world sees a person who talks about God's grace and mercy but then sees that same person demanding vindication and restitution for a wrong done to them, they quickly see the hypocrisy. But when the world sees a person who demonstrates the grace and mercy that they talk about, it is a powerful demonstration of how God's Love, grace and mercy can change a person and enable them to put into practice that which they talk about.

God's Love can empower us to overlook offenses toward us and through His grace, there can come a day where you will never again say the words, "I'm offended".

:cool:
 

ByTheSpirit

Come Lord Jesus
May 17, 2011
11,422
4,650
Manhattan, KS
✟186,512.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married


I agree with overlooking offense, but not internet abuse in a forum where persons regularly fellowship with one another.

Granted, some persons appear to live chaotic, abusive lives ... and like it that way ...
but I don't agree with anyone being required to repeatedly accept abusive behavior online, or being forced to leave silently because of it.

That's bullying.
That's much more than mere 'offense'.


I'm curious... What does abuse have to do with the OP?
 
Upvote 0

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
22,247
2,918
46
PA
Visit site
✟132,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree you've got some good stuff to share there, probinson ...
but let's face it.
You've started this thread to defend your snarky sniper comments made towards me in another thread.
This thread is not about you. It is about the carnality of offense, which is applicable to all of us, including me.

:cool:
 
Upvote 0

murjahel

Senior Veteran
Oct 31, 2005
8,768
1,066
✟29,367.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Did you ever read and consider the story of the GOOD SAMARITAN? It is appropriate for this discussion, I believe.

The individual characters in this event are:
victimizers = the thieves
the victim = probably a priest traveling to Jericho
a priest = probably traveling to Jerusalem
a Levite = probably also traveling to Jerusalem
a Samaritan - a people that were hated and avoided by the Jews
an inn-keeper = probably a Jew

THE VICTIMIZERS in this story, by JESUS, stripped a man of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. That was an OFFENSE.

How did Jesus view that offense?

These thieves did not just take the money, they also took his clothes, wounded him, and hoped he would die. There are violent ones today in Christian circles.

There are many in the congregations of the day, who do hurt the children of God. They may berate, criticize, gossip, etc.

THE VICTIMS

The victims are usually seen as vulnerable. They probably are traveling alone. In our day, the victims are in some way "alone." For some reason, the victim appears vulnerable by the victimizers. They are attacked and hurt.

I think when we think of 'offense' we need to make sure first, we are not the offenders, the victimizers. Secondly, we need to be very attentive to the victims, not laugh it off, not belittle them, but defend them. On the previous thread, some wanted to mock another... I am 'offended' by some trying to make victims out of others.

Bullies in school settings usually do not pick on the wrestling champion of the school. They look for some small, mild mannered, gentle soul person that they can victimize, and threaten. In families, an abusive person will pick a mate that is loving, gentle, and easy to victimize. In church settings, we find that there are some who will find the more spiritual, the ones with love and mercy as their style. Those kind are more easily abused, with less chance they will ever stand strong and refuse the abuser the chance to speak great insult and threats to them.

Probably all who are reading this, have at some point, felt like the victim. We know what it is like to be hurt by another "saint." The church is well-known (unfortunately) for being a place where many a person is greatly injured. Even Jesus Himself was mistreated by the religious of that day. He forewarned us of similar treatment.

The man who questioned Jesus at this sermon was seeking to distract from the ‘love thy neighbor’ part, but Jesus was using an illustrated sermon, telling of an event of which this man was much aware, to make certain the message of Jesus in the sermon.

I hope most of us here, love our neighbor. We see sometimes some abuse with coarse language, some abuse with false doctrines. We see some who like the priest and levite just casually stroll by... and now we are seeing some painting the ones who care about the abuse of false doctrines, and their victims, as 'carnal'???? Wow... the gall!

THE PRIEST

Verse 31
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.


The priest who came along the way was probably traveling to Jerusalem in his white, pure garments so that he can do temple service when he arrives at the temple. He "passes by on the other side." He probably wants to avoid defiling himself. This would have required going through a purification ritual when he arrived in Jerusalem. He probably in all PRIDE expressed his extreme humility, LOL, and was critical of anyone who might stop to help the victim.

He may have felt pity for the victim, but did not want the trouble of having to care for the beaten victim, and then still have to be purified again before he could do his service in the presence of the temple. Some see false doctrine, and harsh language spew from victimizers, and to avoid the anger of those victimizers, they stroll by the victims, and later criticize the Samaritan who took time to try to help.

Many don't want to be soiled by helping the victims. They think they have a higher level on which to serve. They think righteousness is found only in worship, and don't know how to respond to a hurting and needy world. They love to call attention to their own righteousness. Their "white robes" are for display, and they cannot chance soiling them by helping the victims. They want everyone to constantly see their lofty standards, their holiness dogma, their purity from sin. They despise those who do not measure up to their standards. They will hate those who are the victims, lie about them so as to cover their real reason for the lack of compassion. They are often more compassionate to the victimizers, than to the victims.

They carefully justify their refusal to help victims. They say that they "should have known better than to travel such a road alone." They claim that they victims are under a "curse of God" or they would not have been victims. They feel little pity for anyone who so "obviously is forsaken by God, or they would not have been in such a state as this." They try to turn others with them against the victims, and even lie about the victims to justify their lack of compassion.

The story of the good Samaritan reveals the callous attitude of many in religion. They allow the victimizers to flourish, they side with the victimizers, they want to keep their own appearance of righteousness so much that they criticize the victim more than the victimizers. This priest gave a glance or two, he saw the hurting, wounded, beaten, and robbed man. Real compassion was greatly lacking in him.

Paul in I Corinthians 13 said that gifts, faith, and works without compassion, love, and the proper attitude profit nothing. This priest had religion, but not compassion. He was not a "neighbor". We, as Christians are to love even our enemies, but this priest could not even love another priest.

THE LEVITE

Verse 32
And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

The Levite who passed by was not going to do temple service. He did not need to worry about the purity of his garments. Yet, he too passed by this victim. Perhaps, he had a lesson to teach, or a dinner to attend. He may have been late on his efforts to attend the temple worship. Whatever the reason, he did care enough to come close and look with sympathy on the victim. Yet, he did not care enough to help.

Many today are at a spiritual level that they care, but not enough. Some will be sure they don't look like they care too much about victims, or they might be a victim themselves.


THE GOOD SAMARITAN

Verse 33
But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,


The Samaritan comes on the scene and sees a victim. In spite of what it could have cost him, he gave assistance.

He was of a people who:

were hated of the Jews... and were classed with demons (John 8:48)... and the Jewish people refused to associate with them, and avoided their cities, even if it meant traveling far out of the way.

The Lord is looking for those who will:
love the unlovely,
help the hurting,
stand for an unpopular stand,
speak when others would say be silent,
help when others would say "That is not our ministry."

The Samaritan type, in congregations today, often stand alone. They are at a level above the average. They don't need ecclesiastical permission to care for souls and hurting saints. As a man approved of God, this Samaritan not only aided the man, but took him to an inn-keeper to make sure this man received all the help he would need. There are some in the world today who have reached this level of Christianity.


and when he saw him, he had compassion on him

This, according to Jesus, is the kind of love one is to have for their neighbor. It is one who has no reason to help, but does help. The reason for that being the case is the inner agape love in the heart of the person.

We are told, very explicitly, by John to "love one another."
I John 4:7, 11, 12
"Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God... Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another... If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and His love is perfected in us."

Since God Himself is love, love is His domain. All agape love has its source in God. The presence of love in us is evidence that we are Christians. The priest, the levite, the thieves did not have the ‘agape love’ that all Christians are now commanded to have. They did not know who was their neighbor, they did not have a love that recognized the spiritual value of all others.

I John 4:7
"...every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God."

Therefore, to love not, shows that we do not know God. The 'cult' people discussed in the other thread, do not love people, they love themselves, and rob truth of the Word of God from their victims. The good Samaritans are more concerned with the victims, and care for them. To accuse the good Samaritan of being carnal for his caring for those offended by victimizers, like cult leaders, is ridiculous.


THE INNKEEPER

Verse 35
And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

The two pence was equal to two days' pay for a common laborer. So the innkeeper was paid well. The inn-keeper was ready to help. He did it as long as it didn't cost him personally. The Samaritan was the one who gave two day's wages to the inn-keeper to be sure the man was aided. The Samaritan gave of his own money, but the inn-keeper required payment for his services.

People in ministries today need to beware doing the right thing for the wrong motive. It was not the inn-keeper that the Lord indicated was the "neighbor" in this story.

Verse 36-37
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

"GO AND DO THOU LIKEWISE"

The Lord is trying to get a church ready for the rapture. He is bringing many, if not all, Christians to a crossroads. There at the crossroads, we will encounter victims. We will have to make a choice. The Lord ended the story with "Go, and do thou likewise." Thus, He intended to have us come upon victims often, and wanted us to know how to treat them when we did encounter them. When we see false doctrines of some assaulting victims, do we care like the good Samaritan? are we carnal if we are offended at those who offend the victims of their false doctrines? Is that what Christianity has come to???

The priest and the Levite arrived clean and smug in their clean garments... the good Samaritan may have been called carnal, offended by seeing what victimizers had done to victims.. but... he was commended by the One Who counts.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
22,247
2,918
46
PA
Visit site
✟132,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It's interesting that the idea of bullying has been raised, because those who habitually take offense are often more guilty of bullying than they would ever realize or admit.

As I stated in the OP, those people who take offense want to focus the attention on them. "Hey everyone! I'm offended! Capitulate to my every demand until I feel proper restitution has been served for my offense!"

This is, in itself, a form of bullying. Those who take offense often use it as a tool of manipulation to get their own way. They become the bully, keeping the focus on them and their offense.

Bitterness walks hand in hand with offense. When a person takes offense, they are choosing, in that moment, to not forgive. Doing this repeatedly results in what the Bible calls a root of bitterness;
Hebrews 12:15 (AMP)
Exercise foresight and be on the watch to look [after one another], to see that no one falls back from and fails to secure God’s grace (His unmerited favor and spiritual blessing), in order that no root of resentment (rancor, bitterness, or hatred) shoots forth and causes trouble and bitter torment, and the many become contaminated and defiled by it—
Bitterness contaminates and defiles everything around it. By choosing to take offense, whether it was given or not, one is choosing to withhold the grace of God from that person.

Consider all the many things you and I have been exonerated from by the grace of God and the selfless sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Do you see the enormity of your offenses? Do you realize that Jesus Christ chose not to hold any of those offenses against you? Does anything that anyone could do to you even come close to comparing to the offenses you've been forgiven of by God?

Everyone of us has a choice when offense comes; we can choose to take that offense, withhold grace and forgiveness and give place for a root of bitterness to take hold of us, or we can demonstrate the Love of God, forgive, whether the person is sorry or not, and overlook the offense. The former is where you will find bondage. The latter is where you will find freedom.

:cool:
 
Upvote 0

murjahel

Senior Veteran
Oct 31, 2005
8,768
1,066
✟29,367.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
"I'm offended".

...Our flesh feels like if we just had an apology, everything would be better. An apology that is demanded is a result of our carnal flesh's need for restitution. But as the lyrics above state, it really doesn't matter if they're sorry or not. Freedom comes when we surrender to God's grace and mercy, or more accurately when we demonstrate that grace and mercy to those who offend us.

Mark 9:42 (KJV)
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in Me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

I see many here being offended, and the offended being herein called 'carnal'... and no rebuke to the offender... The Lord takes a different view of the offenders.

To ask for an apology, does more good for the offender, who can get remittance for their offense thereby, than it does for the one receiving the apology. I would not suggest that anyone not request an apology, for it is a way for the sinful offender to get right with God. I do not expect it from some people, the best I have seen out of some is 'I am sorry you think I did something wrong'... which is not an apology... it is a confirming of their right to have done the wrong they have done.
 
Upvote 0

murjahel

Senior Veteran
Oct 31, 2005
8,768
1,066
✟29,367.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
the 'carnality of offense'... goes along with 'the sinfulness of offending'...

“I am sorry” is seldom heard, especially in a sincere manner. People come along and defend the offenders, and criticize the offended...

We can sometimes hear words like ‘I’m sorry you think I did wrong’ which is not a sincere apology, they are not sorry they did wrong, they are not admitting wrong, they are just sorry you have that misconception (they claim) that anything they did is wrong at all. That is a bogus apology.

An apology is an admission of doing something, saying something, feeling something should not have been done, said, nor felt. Some apologize without feeling true remorse, and that lack of Godly sorrow indicates it is a bogus apology.

Some politicians apologize for anything that made them less likely to be voted for. Those are not true remorse, but are attempts to gain acceptance and attempts to cover their true feelings.

If someone apologizes without true godly sorrow, that apology is a lie. If they do not truly regret their actions, words, or thoughts that offended, they lack godly sorrow, so to pretend it is sincerely an apology is deceptive, and a falsehood.

Those bogus apologies are worded carefully and deceitfully. The ‘I’m sorry you think...’ or the ‘I’m sorry you’re upset at...’, or I’m sorry you got mad...’ does not indicate personal sorrow, does not indicate a change of mind from the one had at the time of the wrong.

Paul spoke of apologies.

2 Corinthians 7:9-12 (KJV)
9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
12 Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.

Even Christians try to erase ‘sorrow’. No one enjoys having hurt someone, and then having to apologize. We are forgiven for our sin when we repent to God, we are justified and righteous in God’s eyes, unless we refuse to apologize to the one wronged.

In fact, we are commanded to not come to God without first trying to go to the one wronged.

Matthew 5:23-24 (KJV)
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

We are to have ‘godly sorrow’. The word for ‘sorrow’ is the Greek word, loo-pay, meaning grief, heaviness, sorrow. The ‘I’m sorry’ is to be instigated by that Godly sorrow.

We are told it is ‘not to be repented of’. The word ‘repented’ here is the Greek word ametameletos, and is a negative of its root word. What is declaring is that we are not to cease to regret, not to cease to be sorry for the wrongs we did to God, to mankind, and to ourselves.

The need to say ‘I am sorry’ does not cease with becoming a Christian, rather it increases. Our sins, our wrongs toward others, need repented.

For a victimizer to criticize ones he has offended, with their call for repentance, or for their so called 'carnal' taking offense, only aggravates the sin they have already committed in offending one of the Lord's children.

It does bother me greatly to see the offending going on... and to see victims being hurt, makes me stir up... and not let the victimizers go unrebuked... So, now I and others are being rebuked as 'carnal' for not being willing victims... LOL I am a willing victim, in just coming near to the victimizers... and I am an unwilling to let my brothers and sisters be victimized without me doing something to aid them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Norah63

Newbie
Jun 29, 2011
4,225
430
everlasting hills
✟14,569.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That part of our Lords prayer comes to mind here;
Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Even if we have not seen a point like another may see it, that is no reason for me to
think less of their level of maturity. So no offence is needed.
Yet I can trust Lord Jesus to keep me in line by the Holy spirit that always reminds of what Jesus says.
 
Upvote 0

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
22,247
2,918
46
PA
Visit site
✟132,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The victim mentality is one of helplessness, because in declaring oneself a victim, they are reliant on someone else to cure their offense. They are bound by their offense, and because they choose to see themselves as a victim, they cannot break free.

It is the Love of God alone that empowers us to pay no attention to a suffered wrong (1 Cor. 13:5). While there are those well meaning people who will try to coddle you in your offenses, they are simply enabling you to remain in the bondage of your offenses.

The Truth is that freedom is found in forgiveness and in not taking offense. Only you can make that choice. Those who offend you hold no power over you unless you choose to play the victim and wallow in your offenses.

As a child of the Most High God, you posses the Love of God that enables you to overlook offenses. You are not a victim; you are a victor because of what Jesus Christ has done for you. When you get a revelation of this Truth, people can no longer hurt you.

:cool:
 
Upvote 0

Messy

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2011
10,027
2,082
Holland
✟21,082.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single


:runcry: (I'm sorry, but that really sounds like something a cult leader or abuser would say, too ... after personally 'offending' someone.)


LOL well I hope probinson won't be offended by this comment then. Hey probinson, you sound like an abusing cult leader! LOL not offensive at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: probinson
Upvote 0

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
22,247
2,918
46
PA
Visit site
✟132,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
LOL well I hope probinson won't be offended by this comment then. Hey probinson, you sound like an abusing cult leader! LOL not offensive at all.

I have plenty of opportunities to put my OP into practice in this forum. This is just one of many. ;)

:cool:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

probinson

Legend
Aug 16, 2005
22,247
2,918
46
PA
Visit site
✟132,454.00
Country
United States
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

And you started this thread right after you publicly 'sniped' me in another thread ...
That's your perception. You took offense where none was intended.
and I dared to publicly cry 'ouch' ...
but this thread wasn't 'inspired' by that situation?

Not really. I've been thinking of starting this thread for quite some time. It's one of the reasons I took such a long break. It's been an eye opening experience for me to sit on the sidelines and observe. All the while God was dealing with me about writing this post, since taking offense here seems to be a right dandy way to try to control and manipulate others.

I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.
That's fine. I don't particularly care if you believe me or not.


And after your latest 'sniper' attack towards me ...

Again, not true.

I'm really not interested in your discussion now on how 'we' should 'overlook' the offenses of others.

I didn't figure you would be. The Truth of the matter is it's not easy, nor is it fair, nor does it satisfy our flesh to overlook offenses, perceived or real. It's much easier to hold on to them, but in choosing to hold onto offenses, they hold us captive.

Since you seem determined to make this thread all about you for some reason, I will indulge you for just a moment.

Up to this point, you've not addressed anything I've said in this thread. You assigned an imaginary motive to it, took offense to it, and then personally attacked me, equating me to an abuser or a cult leader. The one good thing that's come of this is that you've provided a text book example of what taking offense where none is intended looks like.

:cool:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0