The Cannon of Scripture as we may or may not know it...

[Paidiske]

The earliest “canon” was that of Marcion apparently, which was about rejecting everything except his edited version of the Gospel of Luke and the Pauline Epistles, but its a bit of a freak of nature, so I won’t count it as a canon if you won’t.

I was thinking of the response to Marcion, and the insistence on reading some of the works he rejected.

 

[The Liturgist]

I was thinking of the response to Marcion, and the insistence on reading some of the works he rejected.

That is brilliant. The canon as an anti-Marcionite, anti-Alogian ecclesiastical defense.

Have you ever thought of going for a doctorate in theology? I am serious about this; I had never even considered that angle. Nor had my professors.

Right now the prevailing attitude in academia towards the canon is how mean Athanasius was being for cutting off all these interesting books we should have kept. Indeed Fr. Peter Owen-Jones, whose documentaries I usually like (Extreme Pilgrim and Around the World in 80 Faiths were thrilling), did a borimg and kind of whiny documentary from this “exclusionary perspective” if I might call it that.

I have never heard of anyone seeking to defend the canon as “inclusionary,” and I am blown away by this concept. And it should be kind of obvious that I am not easily blown away by the ideas a lot of people have on the Internet when it comes to theology.

I really like this Traditional Theology forum, because the content here is especially vibrant and interesting, so whoever thought of this, consider me a fan. But the canon as inclusionary .... this is interesting.

 

[Paidiske]

Aww, shucks. That might be the kindest thing anyone's said to me here; at least for quite a long time!

I've considered doing a doctorate; in fact, started the work (on the Shepherd) and have in mind one or two angles as possible ways for it to develop. But my primary vocation is to parish ministry, and I found that I do not have the time, or the headspace, to give to a doctorate while also running a parish and being a mum of a young child with special needs. I can only do so much! Perhaps later in life there will be a shift to make it more possible.

I'm not sure that this brilliant insight of the canon as an inclusionary strategy is my own, though; while I can't remember how it first occurred to me, I suspect one of my patristics lecturers (perhaps Andrew McGowan?) pointed it out, or at least said something which lent itself to being understood that way.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

But you do know Revelation was declared canonical by Athanasius in the 360s, and by Pope Gelasius in the 480s?

Trent merely canonized the deuterocanon.

The majority of Confessional Lutherans do accept it; and hold that it was indeed written by the same "John" that wrote the Gospel; however, there are some that may not. We accept that valid questions remain regarding authorship.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Do you have a list of books, like, for instance, the Gnostic literature, that you absolutely reject? Because the LCMS strikes me as being one of the best churches in America, one of my favorites, and I would think if any of your pastors dared read from The Gospel According to Philip, or the Acts of Thomas, the congregation would storm out!

Now the ELCA on the other hand is sadly something else. Ever heard of Herchurch?

Gnostic Gospels are out. Period. Yes, I have heard of that aberration.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Perch! You lucky man! I am insanely jealous. I must repeat to myself “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s fish.”

But it sounds like you are going to fish for it yourself, and I find fishing boring, even with quantities of beer my current occupation as a man of the cloth prevents me from consuming. Wouldn’t want to be accused of moral turpitude...

I haven’t had any of those heavenly little fish since I ordered an exquisite platter of them at the seafood restaurant in the Drake Hotel in Chicago in 2007. I have to console myself eating fresh water eel at sushi bars and pretending I am eatimg perch, but with stranger seasoning.

They are delectable! So is eel!
Regarding beer; this Friday past, my Pastor and I went out for beers (yes he wore his collar); besides satiating our thirst, we were also exploring a possible venue for a monthly outreach event that we will call and advertise as either "Bible on Tap" or "Theology on Tap" (name is yet to be determined). Our trial run went quite well; and our wives and his youngsters joined us later for dinner.

A few heads were turned, but not in any negative way.

It is good to be a Lutheran!

 

[The Liturgist]

They are delectable! So is eel!
Regarding beer; this Friday past, my Pastor and I went out for beers (yes he wore his collar); besides satiating our thirst, we were also exploring a possible venue for a monthly outreach event that we will call and advertise as either "Bible on Tap" or "Theology on Tap" (name is yet to be determined). Our trial run went quite well; and our wives and his youngsters joined us later for dinner.

A few heads were turned, but not in any negative way.

It is good to be a Lutheran!

And bad I suppose to be a Congregationalist. Poor me. It could be worse, I could be Baptist. Then even touching a drop would get me into trouble.

Have you heard the one about the difference between Methodists and Baptists?

 

[The Liturgist]

Gnostic Gospels are out. Period. Yes, I have heard of that aberration.

Good. Yes, Herchurch is bad, but I used to be a minister in the UCC, and we had parishes that made Herchurch look like the very pinnacle of orthodoxy. Really, that was not a good career move for me.

 

[The Liturgist]

Aww, shucks. That might be the kindest thing anyone's said to me here; at least for quite a long time!

I've considered doing a doctorate; in fact, started the work (on the Shepherd) and have in mind one or two angles as possible ways for it to develop. But my primary vocation is to parish ministry, and I found that I do not have the time, or the headspace, to give to a doctorate while also running a parish and being a mum of a young child with special needs. I can only do so much! Perhaps later in life there will be a shift to make it more possible.

I'm not sure that this brilliant insight of the canon as an inclusionary strategy is my own, though; while I can't remember how it first occurred to me, I suspect one of my patristics lecturers (perhaps Andrew McGowan?) pointed it out, or at least said something which lent itself to being understood that way.

Well your people are lucky to have you. And I will have to look into Andrew McGowan.

A dissertation on the Shepherd of Hermas would be a fascinating read - as I am sure you and Mark are aware, but for the benefit of lesser minds other participants in the conversation , this book was not included in the canon by Athanasius, but he did authorize it to be used catechtically.

There is a WELS theologian who set out to be a pastor but made the fatal mistake of getting a Masters in Theology rather than an MDiv and was refused colloquy (persnickity people, those Wisconsin Evangelical Lutherans, but apparently that is a prerequisite for cheese-making), who absolutely loathes the Shepherd, but I haven’t been able to get him to tell me why.

 

[dzheremi]

That said, I have heard that when books from the Ethiopian “broad canon”, which we could call, lets say, tritocanonical, contradict the shared doctrine of the Coptic and Ethiopian churches, they are ignored on such a point. So for example, some of the more peculiar parts of 1 Enoch.

Oh, well...I guess you've heard it, so it's true. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Don't quote my posts if you're going to be trashing my Church in your replies, please.

 

[Paidiske]

And I will have to look into Andrew McGowan.

A very interesting scholar on the early church,and in particular its liturgical life (he used to joke that all of the big issues were settled in the first 400 years or so, and everything since then has just been "church current events.") Much of his work would be quite relevant to your interests, I think. I'm slowly making my way through his book, Ancient Christian Worship: Early Church Practices in Social, Historical, and Theological Perspective.

A dissertation on the Shepherd of Hermas would be a fascinating read

There's some good work out there; Carolyn Osiek wrote a sound commentary, for a start. But most of it is quite a bit dated now, and some of the best scholarship hasn't been published in English. I think there's definitely room for fresh eyes, so to speak.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

And bad I suppose to be a Congregationalist. Poor me. It could be worse, I could be Baptist. Then even touching a drop would get me into trouble.

Have you heard the one about the difference between Methodists and Baptists?

No, I have not; don't keep us in suspense!!
It seems such depends on which type of Baptist; a good friend, and our Chief Range Officer at our gun range comes from a less legalistic bunch; and about all of them will enjoy a few, including their Minister. They would be what I would call "classic or traditional" baptists, not the more fundamentalist kind.

 

[The Liturgist]

Oh, well...I guess you've heard it, so it's true. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Don't quote my posts if you're going to be trashing my Church in your replies, please.

Please forgive me; my quote was not intended to in any respect offend either the Coptic or the Ethiopian church. I have the highest respect for Coptic and Ethiopian Christians; I have been blessed to visit Coptic monasteries, in the company of Ethiopian Christians. My remark was intended as a defense of the Ethiopian church against people who sometimes accuse it of having strange doctrines, because of the Broad Canon and some of the material in Enoch. I should also stress that I like the Broad Canon and consider it edifying; I also think it is a good idea for the Ethiopians to include the Didascalia in every Ethiopian Bible (in theory; sadly many printed copies are mass produced by people who reject both of the Ethiopian canons, and in Egpyt, the situation is even worse; the Egpytian Arabic Bibles most people have are printed by a doctrinaire 66-book closed canon type of Protestant group, which does a good service in printing them and basically giving them away, like the Gideons, but this book lacks the content of the traditional Coptic Bible, which closely resembles the Byzantine Bible, in terms of the canonical books, the Old Testament being translated from the Greek Septuagint, primarily, and textual differences and versifications).

I love the Ethiopian and Coptic churches. The Ethiopian Orthodox are incredibly pious in the severity of their fasting and their literal all night vigils, church services which can last 20 hours, and this is not done for superstition or “works righteousness” as some people claim, but rather because the Ethiopian Orthodox love God, and are sustained by the Holy Spirit even in times of misery and famine. And in the Coptic church, Fr. Lazarus, the Australian hermit who converted at age 40 from atheism, maintains the Cave of St. Anthony and serves the liturgy there every night, and is a hero of mine.

One of my goals in my ministry, even when I was in the United Church of Christ, is to explain concepts from the Christian East and introduce them to the Protestant West, because I respect all three of the major groups of Christians (Catholics, Protestants, and the Eastern churches). In the UCC, there was superficial interest, but among the clergy, the piety of the Orthodox people was viewed as backwards, and many other bad things, something to be opposed, and I couldn’t deal with that. They wanted the superficial items like icons, the music, prayer ropes and so on, but when it came to the morality and deep faith convictions of, for example, the Coptic Christians, even in something as basic as the Holy Trinity, they had no appreciation for it, or viewed it with contempt, even, and this was deeply upsetting (with some exceptions; there are still a few good Congregationalist and Reformed ministers in the UCC).

The UCC interestingly is related to the LCMS, which I love, and see as representing some of the best virtues in Western Christianity. The Prussian monarchs were Calvinists, but most of the people were Lutherans, in common with other North Germans. The Prussian monarchy, later the German emperors, imposed a church which was intended to unite both elements (without that much success overall, in my opinion). When the Prussian immigrants arrived in the US, in the 19th century they formed a church, and opted for congregational governance, but as the transition from German to English occurred, the Lutheran-leaning and Reformed-leaning elements separated, and the latter eventually merged with the Congregationalists, who were the heirs to the original Puritan churches in New England which did not apostatize by embracing Unitarianism (the Unitarians took over Harvard, and the Congregationalists, who at the time still outnumbered them, founded Yale, to continue their reformed doctrine). The resulting church was the United Church of Christ, which sadly is in very bad shape and needs our prayers. I tried to help, but it was not a situation where I could have prevailed, so at the moment I am setting up a Congregationalist church plant with a view to joining the CCCC, or another traditional Christian group with Congregational or Episcopal polity (I am not personally convinced Presbyterian polity is the ideal form of church governance, owing to its relative complexity and the apparent lack of anything specifically like it in the early church, but I do love some Presbyterian churches and ministers, like Dr. D. James Kennedy, founder of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, and a beautiful, traditional, low-church liturgical minister, requiescat in pace).

 

[The Liturgist]

No, I have not; don't keep us in suspense!!
It seems such depends on which type of Baptist; a good friend, and our Chief Range Officer at our gun range comes from a less legalistic bunch; and about all of them will enjoy a few, including their Minister. They would be what I would call "classic or traditional" baptists, not the more fundamentalist kind.

The difference is Methodists say hello to each other when shopping at the liquor store.

It’s a slightly mean joke, but funny, and I love the Methodists and the Baptists; I went to a Methodist church in my twenties, and nearly pursued ordination in that denomination (I am glad I didn’t, because the UMC is having a battle royale between traditionalists and those who want homosexual marriage, etc, and depending on who wins, individual parishes have already been victims, for example, St. Paul’s Methodist Church in Alaska, a case worth Googling). The joke is of course based on the Methodist and Baptist support of Prohibition, which was a noble effort which failed completely, and which also ignored people like you who drink responsibly. Congregationalists were also involved in that mistake...I think it was just the Lutherans, Catholics and a few minority denominations, among Christians in the US, who opposed Prohibition, and even then, some supported it.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The difference is Methodists say hello to each other when shopping at the liquor store.

It’s a slightly mean joke, but funny, and I love the Methodists and the Baptists; I went to a Methodist church in my twenties, and nearly pursued ordination in that denomination (I am glad I didn’t, because the UMC is having a battle royale between traditionalists and those who want homosexual marriage, etc, and depending on who wins, individual parishes have already been victims, for example, St. Paul’s Methodist Church in Alaska, a case worth Googling). The joke is of course based on the Methodist and Baptist support of Prohibition, which was a noble effort which failed completely, and which also ignored people like you who drink responsibly. Congregationalists were also involved in that mistake...I think it was just the Lutherans, Catholics and a few minority denominations, among Christians in the US, who opposed Prohibition, and even then, some supported it.

You are correct!

There was another old joke about Baptists not being allowed to have sex standing up as it might lead to dancing. LOL.

 

[The Liturgist]

You are correct!

There was another old joke about Baptists not being allowed to have sex standing up as it might lead to dancing. LOL.

You are an incredibly witty man, even by the very high standards of Canadians, who in my experience tend to be hilarious anyway (and not because of the accent; I actually find the diverse range of Canadian accents too interesting to be amusing; also trying to learn how to do Canadian raising is impossible for an American, whereas a Canadian can easily learn how to creep amongst us undetected, secretly spying on the rebel colonists for the benefit of Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II and the Governor General.

Seriously though if you are in “Sin City” as it is falsely called, or if I am in the equally misnamed (except perhaps in the winter, in some places), “the Great White North” which is the habitable portion of Canada, we must have a beer. I have had some epic Canadian beers.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

You are an incredibly witty man, even by the very high standards of Canadians, who in my experience tend to be hilarious anyway (and not because of the accent; I actually find the diverse range of Canadian accents too interesting to be amusing; also trying to learn how to do Canadian raising is impossible for an American, whereas a Canadian can easily learn how to creep amongst us undetected, secretly spying on the rebel colonists for the benefit of Her Majesty Queen Elisabeth II and the Governor General.

Seriously though if you are in “Sin City” as it is falsely called, or if I am in the equally misnamed (except perhaps in the winter, in some places), “the Great White North” which is the habitable portion of Canada, we must have a beer. I have had some epic Canadian beers.

Thanks for the compliment; I have been fortunate to have always worked with intelligent, witty people; and I am grateful that some rubbed off on me.

Accents; there is a real diversity in the US as well, I have found. My wife is from Newfoundland, and they are all english speaking; however some Newfoundlanders can not always understand others from a different part of the island. Even in our area (South Western Ontario) within counties and townships there are differences due to the ethnicity of the original settlers. My wife still makes fun of the bits of German inflection that have been retained in us rural Lutherans (where German has not been spoken for 5 generations); and the very pure Irish accents of the decedents of those who came here in the mid 1800s. Then we have the Amish, who still speak German, who learn German from Luther's Bible, but without any other cultural context. There are a lot of things in this time that were unknown or not written about in Luther's Bible; so their German, with the interspersion of English words, has became almost a unique language, and unique by region. French in Quebec varies by region. The further away from the cities, the purer, and more text book it seems to become. With recent immigration, we have a new diversity influencing how we speak as well. I know a Dutch Christian Reformed guy who immigrated here in the 70's. He taught (or tried to teach) himself English before coming to Canada using his Dutch Bible and the King James Bible; his accent and syntax is unique within his own community. My hat is off to him, but he does sound funny!!! (that is as close as this post is going to be on topic LOL).

I love being Canadian!

Regarding snow; the days are short, and having some snow on the ground makes the long nights not as dark, as it reflects star, moon and street lights. Even in Southern Ontario, it is still dark at 7:30 in the morning, and gets dark by 5:15 in the after noon. After the 20th, the days will start getting longer again, and we will start to notice by the end of January. LOL.

Beer! 4 micro breweries in my little city; another one in the next town 5 minuts away! Life is good!

I wold enjoy sharing one or two with you!

Mark

 

[The Liturgist]

Thanks for the compliment; I have been fortunate to have always worked with intelligent, witty people; and I am grateful that some rubbed off on me.

Accents; there is a real diversity in the US as well, I have found. My wife is from Newfoundland, and they are all english speaking; however some Newfoundlanders can not always understand others from a different part of the island. Even in our area (South Western Ontario) within counties and townships there are differences due to the ethnicity of the original settlers. My wife still makes fun of the bits of German inflection that have been retained in us rural Lutherans (where German has not been spoken for 5 generations); and the very pure Irish accents of the decedents of those who came here in the mid 1800s. Then we have the Amish, who still speak German, who learn German from Luther's Bible, but without any other cultural context. There are a lot of things in this time that were unknown or not written about in Luther's Bible; so their German, with the interspersion of English words, has became almost a unique language, and unique by region. French in Quebec varies by region. The further away from the cities, the purer, and more text book it seems to become. With recent immigration, we have a new diversity influencing how we speak as well. I know a Dutch Christian Reformed guy who immigrated here in the 70's. He taught (or tried to teach) himself English before coming to Canada using his Dutch Bible and the King James Bible; his accent and syntax is unique within his own community. My hat is off to him, but he does sound funny!!! (that is as close as this post is going to be on topic LOL).

I love being Canadian!

Regarding snow; the days are short, and having some snow on the ground makes the long nights not as dark, as it reflects star, moon and street lights. Even in Southern Ontario, it is still dark at 7:30 in the morning, and gets dark by 5:15 in the after noon. After the 20th, the days will start getting longer again, and we will start to notice by the end of January. LOL.

Beer! 4 micro breweries in my little city; another one in the next town 5 minuts away! Life is good!

I wold enjoy sharing one or two with you!

Mark

Indeed so. You know I am upset about one thing, and that is I am kind of a streetcar / tramway enthusiast (a weird hobby, but I find older streetcars like the St. Charles Ave cars in New Orleans, the PCC cars in San Francisco on the “E Line” , and in Boston on the Ashmont Trolley, and the California Street cable car, but not the other two, as they are massively overcrowded, except very late at night, when one can actually use them as useful public transport), and in a few European cities that haven’t switched over to modern, boring, low floor cars completely (Vienna still has a few 1970s era cars, and you can find Tatras in Eastern Europe), and in Lisbon and a few Italian cities, the most charming way of seeing a city. I had hoped to ride on a CLRV before they were all retired, and the plan was to keep them in service until 2022, but apparently a rash of breakdowns caused Toronto to replace them with my least favorite Siemens streetcar. If my clerical career ever fails, I want to manufacture streetcars that are visually appealing. Even the CLRV lagged behind the old PCC and Peter Witt cars in this regard. Fortunately I think there is a tramway museum in Ontario that has all three.

In the US we do have more regional accents than in Canada, but just like in Canada, they are disappointing. It frustrates me in particular how much less I hear a Southern accent anywhere outside of Louisiana and parts of Florida compared to just 20 years ago. Even the mighty New England accents are toppling like dominos, with Philadelphia being the first to fall, Boston becoming endangered, and even New York at risk. The “Minnesota Nice” accent famously heard in Fargo was endangered even then. I have never been called “Brah” by a resident of the San Francisco Bay Area. A variant of the Southern accent is hanging on in parts of the Southwest, but it is frustrating; the accent your country and mine is shifting to is basically the accent of Ohio and Western Michigan, imported to Hollywood; it is like Received Pronunciation in Britain, but not the charming RP of old, but the boring, modern RP of, for example, Matt Smith, which is closer to vulgar “Estuary English.” Although the regional accents are still very healthy in Britain, relatively speaking. Every now and then, I will watch a British television “programme” set in a part of that country I am unfamiliar with, and I can’t follow them. The Welsh accent can be difficult, the Scottish accent at times incomprehensible, and the Geordie accent, the strangest of all, although at least they sound nice. I have no trouble understanding someone from Northern Ireland, but for some reason they always sound angry; not merely gruff like Cockneys or New Yorkers, but genuinely ticked off at yewww. I love the Australian and New Zealand accents, with their vague similiarity to some of the British accents, but a complete vowell shift, which is different in each country. I am particularly fascinated by the vowell shift in the NZ accent; why is it so different from the Australian accent given the much smaller population, and the nearly identical consonants? Perhaps Maori influence? It is fascinating. There was a beautiful Anglo-Chinese accent in Hong Kong which is dying off.

So I guess I need some of that beer. I’ll wear “civvies” rather my clerical collar (not commonly worn in the CCCC, but in the UCC, somewhat common), maybe, to avoid embarassing our religion if I imbibe too much at the Micro Brewery. But if I do drink to excess, I would have a valid excuse to join the LCMS.

Actually, in the event the CCCC doesn’t work out, I have obtained info on affiliating with some continuing Anglican churches, and the ACNA; I should probably inquire into the LCMS/LCC, because that is a congregational church with a shared history with the UCC, but we managed to get the short end of the stick apparently. Although your UCC might be worse than our UCC; I find its mere existence depressing, because you had all these beautiful Canadian churches with distinct characteristics, which merged into an ugly mess which is dying off. Kind of like the ELCA.

But as a liturgical Christian I would not be unhappy in the LCMS, although my first choice option is the CCCC, to try to keep Congregationalism alive. And they have no presence in Nevada, whereas there are several good LCMS parishes around here. I would likely relocate my ministry south into the Tristate Area, or into the Mormon lands of Utah (I think, and pray, the LDS might be losing their grip based on the increased amount of facial hair I am seeing, and other visual indicators; the people in Utah want to be Christian, and they are realizing Mormonism is a giant scam, created by a man who was either crazy, a con artist, or both, that consumes massive amounts of their money, and does much less charitable work than even the dying mainline denominations in the US).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Indeed so. You know I am upset about one thing, and that is I am kind of a streetcar / tramway enthusiast (a weird hobby, but I find older streetcars like the St. Charles Ave cars in New Orleans, the PCC cars in San Francisco on the “E Line” , and in Boston on the Ashmont Trolley, and the California Street cable car, but not the other two, as they are massively overcrowded, except very late at night, when one can actually use them as useful public transport), and in a few European cities that haven’t switched over to modern, boring, low floor cars completely (Vienna still has a few 1970s era cars, and you can find Tatras in Eastern Europe), and in Lisbon and a few Italian cities, the most charming way of seeing a city. I had hoped to ride on a CLRV before they were all retired, and the plan was to keep them in service until 2022, but apparently a rash of breakdowns caused Toronto to replace them with my least favorite Siemens streetcar. If my clerical career ever fails, I want to manufacture streetcars that are visually appealing. Even the CLRV lagged behind the old PCC and Peter Witt cars in this regard. Fortunately I think there is a tramway museum in Ontario that has all three.

In the US we do have more regional accents than in Canada, but just like in Canada, they are disappointing. It frustrates me in particular how much less I hear a Southern accent anywhere outside of Louisiana and parts of Florida compared to just 20 years ago. Even the mighty New England accents are toppling like dominos, with Philadelphia being the first to fall, Boston becoming endangered, and even New York at risk. The “Minnesota Nice” accent famously heard in Fargo was endangered even then. I have never been called “Brah” by a resident of the San Francisco Bay Area. A variant of the Southern accent is hanging on in parts of the Southwest, but it is frustrating; the accent your country and mine is shifting to is basically the accent of Ohio and Western Michigan, imported to Hollywood; it is like Received Pronunciation in Britain, but not the charming RP of old, but the boring, modern RP of, for example, Matt Smith, which is closer to vulgar “Estuary English.” Although the regional accents are still very healthy in Britain, relatively speaking. Every now and then, I will watch a British television “programme” set in a part of that country I am unfamiliar with, and I can’t follow them. The Welsh accent can be difficult, the Scottish accent at times incomprehensible, and the Geordie accent, the strangest of all, although at least they sound nice. I have no trouble understanding someone from Northern Ireland, but for some reason they always sound angry; not merely gruff like Cockneys or New Yorkers, but genuinely ticked off at yewww. I love the Australian and New Zealand accents, with their vague similiarity to some of the British accents, but a complete vowell shift, which is different in each country. I am particularly fascinated by the vowell shift in the NZ accent; why is it so different from the Australian accent given the much smaller population, and the nearly identical consonants? Perhaps Maori influence? It is fascinating. There was a beautiful Anglo-Chinese accent in Hong Kong which is dying off.

So I guess I need some of that beer. I’ll wear “civvies” rather my clerical collar (not commonly worn in the CCCC, but in the UCC, somewhat common), maybe, to avoid embarassing our religion if I imbibe too much at the Micro Brewery. But if I do drink to excess, I would have a valid excuse to join the LCMS.

Actually, in the event the CCCC doesn’t work out, I have obtained info on affiliating with some continuing Anglican churches, and the ACNA; I should probably inquire into the LCMS/LCC, because that is a congregational church with a shared history with the UCC, but we managed to get the short end of the stick apparently. Although your UCC might be worse than our UCC; I find its mere existence depressing, because you had all these beautiful Canadian churches with distinct characteristics, which merged into an ugly mess which is dying off. Kind of like the ELCA.

But as a liturgical Christian I would not be unhappy in the LCMS, although my first choice option is the CCCC, to try to keep Congregationalism alive. And they have no presence in Nevada, whereas there are several good LCMS parishes around here. I would likely relocate my ministry south into the Tristate Area, or into the Mormon lands of Utah (I think, and pray, the LDS might be losing their grip based on the increased amount of facial hair I am seeing, and other visual indicators; the people in Utah want to be Christian, and they are realizing Mormonism is a giant scam, created by a man who was either crazy, a con artist, or both, that consumes massive amounts of their money, and does much less charitable work than even the dying mainline denominations in the US).

You can still ride some of these classics here; the wife and I went last summer; about an hour from my house: home page
The joy of the LCMS/LCC is that congregations vary from non liturgical to High Mass with all the bells, smells, vestments etc. Here is an instructional video from the Gottesdienst guys in the LCMS.

My Pastor and Parish tend to be quite "High Mass" as do I. Not quite to the same level as the video. Simpler vestments, fewer servers.

 

[The Liturgist]

You can still ride some of these classics here; the wife and I went last summer; about an hour from my house: home page
The joy of the LCMS/LCC is that congregations vary from non liturgical to High Mass with all the bells, smells, vestments etc. Here is an instructional video from the Gottesdienst guys in the LCMS.

My Pastor and Parish tend to be quite "High Mass" as do I. Not quite to the same level as the video. Simpler vestments, fewer servers.

Splendid liturgics.