The blessing and the curse of personal interpretation of scripture

[TheWhat?]

"God became man so that man might become God." -Athanasius

[Eph 1:22-23 NKJV] 22 And He put all [things] under His feet, and gave Him [to be] head over all [things] to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

[Rom 15:5-6 NKJV] 5 Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus, 6 that you may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[1Co 8:5-6 NKJV] 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us [there is] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom [are] all things, and through whom we [live].

... in Christ. There is no contradiction.

 

[fhansen]

Is that a balanced picture of Christendom, admitting no grievous errors?

Please elaborate a bit Clare- not sure of the question.

 

[Root of Jesse]

If that was his point, he poorly demonstrated it. It also doesn't accord with the historic picture, because arians didn't begin with a passage and read the meaning from it. Those passages may be abused once a person has decided to impose an arian reading on the text especially through decontextualization, but most of them within their proper contexts are directly teaching about the equality of Jesus with the Father, or the personhood of the Holy Spirit, or some other distinctly Trinitarian flavor. Your claim of transmission is not in keeping with the history of the church, and has been routinely abused for personal power at all levels.

You keep making assertions with no evidence. Please show how the Arians determined their doctrine. Otherwise it's just yes they did, no they didn't. And ill let you play in your own sandbox.

 

[Clare73]

I disagree.

I understand, but we are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13),
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14.

Is murder not a sin? Why would God care if Cain murdered Abel if that was not considered sinning.
Do you not think God has laws in Heaven? Does God not have a Temple in Heaven? Does He not have an ark of the covenant in Heaven? Why was Lucifer kicked out of heaven if he did not sin?

The angels were not "in the world."

Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- 13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

Yes, the only sin that was in the world was the sin of one man, Adam (Romans 5:12) who had transgressed the law given in the Garden. There was no other law until the law was given at Sinai.

So before Sianai, sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13),
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14.
That one sin of Adam caused the death of all those from Adam to Moses,
for God had accounted/imputed Adam's sin to all those in/ofAdam (Romans 5:18),
just as he accounts/imputes Christ's righteousness to all those in/of Christ (Romans 5:19),
through faith, as he did with Abraham (Romans 4:3-5).

 

[Clare73]

Right. And we believe our faith is the accurate faith Christ gave us.

Except for salvation through faith, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9), which it took over 1900 years for the Catholic church to acknowledge, right?

 

[Clare73]

Please elaborate a bit Clare- not sure of the question.

Well, the error of denying "salvation through faith, not by works" (Ephesians 2:8-9), the selling of indulgences, etc.
One authority outside Scripture for the preservation of truth from error likewise is not a guarantee of no error.

Not complaining or indicting, just pointing out the facts.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, the only sin that was in the world was the sin of one man, Adam (Romans 5:12) who had transgressed the law given in the Garden. There was no other law after that before Moses.

So before Sianai, sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13),
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14.
That one sin of Adam caused the death of all those from Adam to Moses,
for God had accounted/imputed Adam's sin to all those in/ofAdam (Romans 5:18),
just as he accounts/imputes Christ's righteousness to all those in/of Christ (Romans 5:19),
through faith, as he did with Abraham (Romans 4:3-5).

Adam introduced sin. If there is no law, there is no sin. There had to have been laws because Adam sinned. Just like Cain when he sinned and murdered his brother. Just because the Ten commandments was given formally at Sinai does not mean there was not laws before that and scriptures indicates this. Another example:

Exodus 16: 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”

27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

This is a direct reference to the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-10 prior to them formally given the Ten Commandments.

You are welcome to believe as you wish, but the evidence of the laws being established from the beginning. Without law there is no sin. Sin is the transgression of God's laws 1 John 3:4

 

[Clare73]

Adam introduced sin. If there is no law, there is no sin.
There had to have been laws because Adam sinned.

Right.

There was one command (law) "Thou shalt not eat of it," which Adam broke.
That is the only sin that was in the world (Romans 5:12) because that was the only law (command) that had been in the world until the law was given at Sinai.

We are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Right.

There was one command (law) "Thou shalt not eat of it," which Adam broke.
That is the only sin that was in the world (Romans 5:12) because that was the only law (command) that had been in the world until the law was given at Sinai.

We are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14.

I am paying attention but I do not interpret the scriptures the way you are.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law (read verse 12). 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

These verses are talking about how sin entered the world through Adam and the disease of sin spread throughout the word because of Adam. Where there is no sin there is no law. Since Adam sinned, there was law. Just because the law was formally given in Sinai does not mean that God did not give His laws to Adam from the beginning. I already showed you an example of this in the post your just replied to.

I have to run for now, but God bless and hope you have a great day.

 

[Clare73]

I do not interpret the scriptures the way you are.

We are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin--by breaking a command, as did Adam (Romans 5:14).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin--by breaking a command, as did Adam (Romans 5:14).

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This does not say Adam did not sin, it is referring to others (not mentioned in the bible, but other people from Adam to Moses) who did not sin but because Adam sinned death was the penalty.

 

[Clare73]

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

This does not say Adam did not sin,

Agreed.

And we are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin--by breaking a command, as did Adam (Romans 5:14).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Agreed.

And we are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin--by breaking a command, as did Adam (Romans 5:14).

Sin is the transgression of the laws 1 John 2:4

So there was laws before Sinai because there was sin.

Genesis 4:6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.

Just like this example

Exodus 16: 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”

27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

This is a direct reference to the Sabbath commandment Exodus 20:8-10 prior to God formally writing the Ten Commandments.

 

[Fervent]

You keep making assertions with no evidence. Please show how the Arians determined their doctrine. Otherwise it's just yes they did, no they didn't. And ill let you play in your own sandbox.

Look, if you want to trust the words of men over the word of God that's on you. I'm not trying to convince you, simply pointing out that your denigration of the Bible is inappropriate. There is no need for authorities providing official interpretations when each of us can read for ourselves, and simply because people have cherry picked to support heretical positions doesn't change that a true seeker of truth will be able to construct true doctrine from Scripture alone. Abuse does not say anything about proper use.

 

[Clare73]

Sin is the transgression of the laws 1 John 2:4

So there was laws before Sinai because there was sin.

I understand your view but

we are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14,

which is in disagreement with your view.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I understand your view but

we are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14,

which is in disagreement with your view.

I disagree and provided scripture reasons in my previous post, but that's okay, we do not have to agree.

 

[Clare73]

I disagree and provided scripture reasons in my previous post, but that's okay, we do not have to agree.

I understand your view but

we are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14,

which is in disagreement with your view.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I understand your view but

we are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14,

which is in disagreement with your view.

I provided the scripture references that clearly shows there was sin/law before Sinai. Sin is the transgression of the law according to scripture 1 John 4:2.

You should quote the whole verses you keep referencing, it might help for better understanding.


Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law (read verse 12). 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Clare73]

I provided the scripture references that clearly shows there was sin/law before Sinai. Sin is the transgression of the law according to scripture 1 John 4:2.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13

Yes, this is the sin of Adam accounted/imputed to all in Adam (Romans 5:18), which was the cause of death for all from Adam to Moses, even of those who had not sinned by breaking a command (Romans 5:14).

(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law (read verse 12). 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

We are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes, this is the sin of Adam accounted/imputed to all in Adam (Romans 5:18), which was the cause of death for all from Adam to Moses, even of those who had not sinned by breaking a command (Romans 5:14).

We are still left with the word of God in
sin was not taken into account because there was no law (Romans 5:13), and
they did not sin (by breaking a command as did Adam)--Romans 5:14.

We are going in circles. We will have to agree to disagree.