The blessing and the curse of personal interpretation of scripture

SabbathBlessings

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God's law points out sin Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20, the law of Moses was added because of sin Gal 3:19.
God's law judges all men James 2:10-12, the law of Moses judges no man, Col 2:14-16.
God's law is spiritual Romans 7:14, the law of Moses was carnal Hebrews 7:16.
God's law brings blessings and peace Proverbs 29:18, Psalms 119:165, the law of Moses contained curses Deut 29:20-21, Gal 3:10.
God's law is PERFECT Psalms 19:7, the law of Moses made nothing perfect Hebrews 7:19.
God's laws are ETERNAL Psalms 89:34, Mathew 5:17-19, the law of Moses is temporary Col 2:14, Hebrews 8:13.

That makes no sense!

The law of Moses came from God!
The law of Moses is the law of God!

This is absurd on its face!
Are you saying God is only capable of having one covenant? There are differences between the two covenants which I clearly laid out. No one said the law of Moses was not directed by God, the law of Moses serves a different purpose than God’s eternal laws that God did not leave up to anyone else to write His laws and only God’s laws (Ten commandments) are inside the ark of the covenant placed there because of it’s significance. Sorry you do not see this, we all have free will and can believe what we want.
 
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Clare73

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Are you saying God is only capable of having one covenant? There are differences between the two covenants which I clearly laid out. No one said the law of Moses was not directed by God, the law of Moses serves a different purpose than God’s eternal laws that God did not leave up to anyone else to write His laws and only God’s laws (Ten commandments) are inside the ark of the covenant placed there because of it’s significance. Sorry you do not see this, we all have free will and can believe what we want.
God's law points out sin Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20, the law of Moses was added because of sin Gal 3:19.

There was no law before the law of Moses! (Romans 5:13

The law of Moses was added to no law!
 
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Root of Jesse

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What you see is statements about history. The fact that your response is "prove it" to my statement that there is an absence of such writings renders your claim suspect, as if such things existed you would simply need to produce one to discredit my statement. The Catholic tradition is not Scripture otherwise the Catholic church would not have found itself on the wrong side of the gospel as often as it has throughout history.
Well, a Catholic doesn't need only Scripture. But I'm asking you to prove your assertions. And, of course, didnt address the questions I asked...
 
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Fervent

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Sure, it's a slam-dunk.

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27.46/Mark 15.34).

“‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone’” (Mark 10.17-18/Luke 18.18-19)

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. “ (John 14:1)

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28

“This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3)

“…Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst” (Acts 2.22).

“I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God” (John 20.17).

“so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Rom 15.6: 2)

“There is no God but one…. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” (1 Corinthians 8.4, 6)

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 2 Cor 1.3

“I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ…” Eph 1:17

“To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.” Rev 1:6
I'm not sure what your point is, especially as quite a number of those when put in their over all context demonstrate Trinitarian belief. Are you implying that abuse should dissuade proper use?
 
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Fervent

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Well, a Catholic doesn't need only Scripture. But I'm asking you to prove your assertions. And, of course, didnt address the questions I asked...
Prove an absence? How exactly would one go about proving an absence?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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God's law points out sin Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20, the law of Moses was added because of sin Gal 3:19.

There was no law before the law of Moses! (Romans 5:13

The law of Moses was added to no law!

Was there not sin before God gave the Ten Commandments?

for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15
Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

Did Adam and Eve sin? Did Cain murder Abel and is that not sin? Why did God wipe out most of man-kind with the flood? Because of sin. Genesis 6.

Abraham obeyed God’s laws before the Ten Commandments was given
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So yes, there was God’s law given before the law of Moses and the Ten Commandments.
 
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Clare73

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Was there not sin before God gave the Ten Commandments?
"Where there is no law, sin is not taken into account."(Romans 5:13).
for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15
Sin is the transgression of the law. John 3:4
You are reversing the argument Paul is making in Romans 5:12-14.
His argument is: since there was no law, sin was not taken into account--Romans 5:13
(i.e., they did not sin, as Adam did, by breaking the law-- Romans 5:14)

The sin that was in the world was the sin of one man, Adam (Romans 5:12-13), which is what caused all to die from Adam to Moses, because God held all guilty of Adam's sin (Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18), which is why all died.

You are reversing Paul's argument to mean:
there was transgression of the law
(which Paul states there was not--no sin was taken into account--Romans 5:13, they did not sin--Romans 5:14),
which shows that law had been given
(which Paul states had not--Romans 5:13).

Did Adam and Eve sin? Did Cain murder Abel and is that not sin? Why did God wipe out man-kind with the flood? Because of sin. Genesis 6.[/QUOTE]
"Where there is no law, sin is not taken into account."(Romans 5:13).
Abraham obeyed God’s laws before the Ten Commandments was given
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. So yes, there was God’s law given before the law of Moses and the Ten Commandments.
The author of Genesis was addressing Israel after the covenant at Sinai, and uses language that strictly aplied only to the Sinaitic covenant. He is emphasizong that Abraham had been obedient to God's will in his time and that they must follow his example if they were to receive the covenant promises.

There was no law given before Sinai (Romans 5:12-13).
 
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coffee4u

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Hi everyone, new poster here so please be kind!

I have struggled for a long time with the balance between personal interpretation of scripture, and dependence on people in positions of authority (who may have greater knowledge).

This is an even more acute issue in the current age, where the authority of traditional news sources is being challenged, and people are being encouraged to make up their own minds.

How do we, as a community of Christians, find that balance between personal engagement with scripture, and relying on the people who understand it best to inform us?

While it is true that a good book, article or preaching can help understanding, the same way knowing some background on the culture can, the actual scripture should be placed above them all. By this I mean the Hebrew and Greek. A few good Bibles translations are needed of course unless a person is actually fluent in Hebrew and Greek, but most of us are not.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Scripture itself is what we need.

Should the book, article or teaching go against scripture, then always lean on the scripture. But make sure you have all the verses on a topic. Check the Hebrew or Greek. It's no good reading just one verse plucked out because it may only show one side and every Bible is only a translation. English words sometimes fail to convey the entire meaning. Take the word 'love' for example. We use 'love' in every situation. Yet the Bible shows 4 forms of love. Eros, Storge, Phila and agape.

Know the scripture, know the gospel.

Because there will be false teachers trying to led us astray.

29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Unless you know the scripture how would you know if another gospel was being preached? You wouldn't.


Deuteronomy 11:18
18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
Know the scriptures. Double check any teaching against it. You are not and should never be dependent on people but rather only dependent on God. People can be a help and a guide but people will always on some points be wrong. To err is human. Doesn't matter if the person is a graduate from a theology college or a doctor. God is the only one who makes no mistakes.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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"Where there is no law, sin is not taken into account."(Romans 5:13).
The author of Genesis was addressing Israel after the covenant at Sinai, and uses language that strictly aplied only to the Sinaitic covenant. He is emphasizong that Abraham had been obedient to God's will in his time and that they must follow his example if they were to receive the covenant promises.

THere was no law given before Sinai (Romans 5:12-13).
I disagree. Is murder not a sin? Why would God care if Cain murdered Abel if that was not considered sinning.

Do you not think God has laws in Heaven? Does God not have a Temple in Heaven? Does He not have an ark of the covenant in Heaven? Why was Lucifer kicked out of heaven if he did not sin?
 
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Fervent

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While it is true that a good book, article or preaching can help understanding, the same way knowing some background on the culture can, the actual scripture should be placed above them all. By this I mean the Hebrew and Greek. A few good Bibles translations are needed of course unless a person is actually fluent in Hebrew and Greek, but most of us are not.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Scripture itself is what we need.

Should the book, article or teaching go against scripture, then always lean on the scripture. But make sure you have all the verses on a topic. Check the Hebrew or Greek. It's no good reading just one verse plucked out because it may only show one side and every Bible is only a translation. English words sometimes fail to convey the entire meaning. Take the word 'love' for example. We use 'love' in every situation. Yet the Bible shows 4 forms of love. Eros, Storge, Phila and agape.

Know the scripture, know the gospel.

Because there will be false teachers trying to led us astray.

29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Unless you know the scripture how would you know if another gospel was being preached? You wouldn't.


Deuteronomy 11:18
18 “Therefore you shall lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
Know the scriptures. Double check any teaching against it. You are not and should never be dependent on people but rather only dependent on God. People can be a help and a guide but people will always on some points be wrong. To err is human. Doesn't matter if the person is a graduate from a theology college or a doctor. God is the only one who makes no mistakes.
This is mostly good, though I think it leans a little too heavily into scholarship. The Scriptures are open to everyone, but are primarily aimed at the unlearned. To place too much emphasis on things that are beyond the level most are going to achieve can rob them of the joy of self-exploration. We have a multitude of English translations and most of them are pretty good and reveal subtle distinctions present in the Greek and Hebrew. Language knowledge, text criticism, and other forms of scholarship can be good but are in no way necessary ingredients for study.
 
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coffee4u

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This is mostly good, though I think it leans a little too heavily into scholarship. The Scriptures are open to everyone, but are primarily aimed at the unlearned. To place too much emphasis on things that are beyond the level most are going to achieve can rob them of the joy of self-exploration. We have a multitude of English translations and most of them are pretty good and reveal subtle distinctions present in the Greek and Hebrew. Language knowledge, text criticism, and other forms of scholarship can be good but are in no way necessary ingredients for study.

I'm not saying don't read a normal Bible or have a few different ones. Someone new to the faith would probably do best by reading a New Kings James and an NIV and just reading the New Testament, underlining anything that grabs their attention.
 
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Clare73

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Was there not sin before God gave the Ten Commandments?
"Where there is no law, sin is not taken into account."(Romans 5:13).
for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15
Sin is the transgression of the law. John 3:4
You are reversing the argument Paul is making in Romans 5:12-14.
His argument is: since there was no law, sin was not taken into account--Romans 5:13
(i.e., they did not sin, as Adam did, by breaking the law-- Romans 5:14)

The sin that was in the world was the sin of one man, Adam (Romans 5:12-13), which is what caused all to die from Adam to Moses, because God held all guilty of Adam's sin (Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18), which is why all died.

You are reversing Paul's argument to mean:
there was transgression of the law
(Paul states there was not--no sin was taken into account--they did not sin--Romans 5:13-14),
which shows that law had been given
(which Paul states had not been given--Romans 5:13).

The point of Paul's argument in Romans 5:12-14 is to show that God accounted/imputed Adam's sin/disobedience to all those in Adam,
just as he accounted/imputed Christ's justification/righteousness to all those in Christ
(Romans 5:18-19).

Paul teaches that the only sin taken into account (guilt assigned) before the stated Law of Sinai was the sin of Adam, in breaking the stated law given in the Garden--"Thou shalt not eat of it."
That was the only stated law given before Sinai.

The law of God is the law of Moses, and vice versa.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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"Where there is no law, sin is not taken into account."(Romans 5:13).

You are reversing the argument Paul is making in Romans 5:12-14.
His argument is: since there was no law, sin was not taken into account--Romans 5:13
(i.e., they did not sin, as Adam did, by breaking the law-- Romans 5:14)

The sin that was in the world was the sin of one man, Adam (Romans 5:12-13), which is what caused all to die from Adam to Moses, because God held all guilty of Adam's sin (Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18), which is why all died.

You are reversing Paul's argument to mean:
there was transgression of the law
(Paul states there was not--no sin was taken into account--they did not sin--Romans 5:13-14),
which shows that law had been given
(which Paul states had not been given--Romans 5:13).
Romans 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:-- 13 for until the law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sin is the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
 
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Root of Jesse

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I'm not sure what your point is, especially as quite a number of those when put in their over all context demonstrate Trinitarian belief. Are you implying that abuse should dissuade proper use?
The point was to show why Arians believe what they do. But as you say, the same shows Trinitarian belief. So it really comes down to 'did Jesus provide for an authoritative transmission of faith?'
 
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IntriKate

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Hi everyone, new poster here so please be kind!

I have struggled for a long time with the balance between personal interpretation of scripture, and dependence on people in positions of authority (who may have greater knowledge).

This is an even more acute issue in the current age, where the authority of traditional news sources is being challenged, and people are being encouraged to make up their own minds.

How do we, as a community of Christians, find that balance between personal engagement with scripture, and relying on the people who understand it best to inform us?

I have struggled with this too, basically if it doesn't sit right in my gut what someone else says about God or his word I will reject it. I believe the holy spirit protects us from lies giving us discernment if we allow and listen.
 
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Fervent

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The point was to show why Arians believe what they do. But as you say, the same shows Trinitarian belief. So it really comes down to 'did Jesus provide for an authoritative transmission of faith?'
If that was his point, he poorly demonstrated it. It also doesn't accord with the historic picture, because arians didn't begin with a passage and read the meaning from it. Those passages may be abused once a person has decided to impose an arian reading on the text especially through decontextualization, but most of them within their proper contexts are directly teaching about the equality of Jesus with the Father, or the personhood of the Holy Spirit, or some other distinctly Trinitarian flavor. Your claim of transmission is not in keeping with the history of the church, and has been routinely abused for personal power at all levels.
 
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