The black community

[bhsmte]

Statistics sound nice and fancy - until you provide a sample space. And, considering this is the statistic for voting population, and considering how there is so much rhetoric about how black people don't vote, the statistic becomes even less impressive. But let's look at the whole population, just for fun.

93% of Black people is about 32,550,000 people. 41% of White people is 88,560,000 people - more than double (and almost three times) the number of Black people. Considering the amount of people of age to vote, and actually did, for both races, clearly the number of White votes for Obama trumps Black numbers of votes for him easily. And, as I said before, it could be argued that White votes for Obama was about a solution for racism, possibly White Guilt, and to provide a reason to say "Hey black people, you have a Black president - why aren't you accomplishing more?"




I didn't say inequality is indicative of Black History Month, I said that Black History Month is indicative of the inequalities issues the States have - the order matters. And, a typical, almost strawman type of way to discredit a lot's problems is to ask the mouthpiece "What are your [specific problems.]" I could have never suffered from inequalities (but I have,) and it wouldn't be something that would disqualify and discredit Black people's problems as a whole. One Black person does represent the combination of problems, challenges, accomplishments and failures all Black people. That is why Obama doesn't represent all Black people (and their possibilities, failures, and accomplishments.) I represent myself.

I am not going to explain the differences between prejuside, bigotry, ignorance, and racism because I have been through that ad nauseum. I will say everyone has prejudices - yes. Not everyone has the ability to substantiate their prejudice, and use it to their advantage at the expense of other people, like [institutional/sociological] racism can. And, as I showed you above, statistics and polls look nice and seem impressive - until you provide all the information (i.e. sample space.)




But in the States, "more than a fair share" is tantamount to "bare minimum/necessity," or a "right" when speaking about race relations, especially when one consideres that most of these efforts were a response to an insufficiency and inequality in the first place.



Country clubs are horrible barometers for measuring race relations - and the average American actually. And, so what if a country club accepts Blacks, when that Black person knows that they can go to Bloomingdale's and be profiled - or refused service based on their race? Or, because he uses his credit card to buy something expensive the employee calls the cops on him because they think the card is stolen? (Yes, these thing happen often in the States.) How many of our nation's politicians are Jewish? How many doctors, lawyers, scientists, and scholars are Jewish? Jews can walk into an expensive restaurant and get a table, or service deserving of anyone. A Jewish person can drive an expensive car without being harassed by the cops. And, as I said before, a Jewish person can hide his/her Jewish identity; Black people can't hide their blackness.

And, so what if you have seen more prejudice against women, especially in the healthcare business. Medicine is an extremely misogynistic field, and hospitals mirror that. That is just what you saw - your own statistic, and a very restricted statistic at that. In the States, racism still reigns supreme to this day, followed by sexism, and then sexuality issues. The Straight White Male is at the top of the ladder of privilege, power and opportunity. There should be no ladder.



Seriously? What else? How about...

1. Acknowledge that there is still a serious racial problem.

2. Understand that this racial problem is, in very large part, related to the reasons why a certain race has "a high crime rate, unemployment, etc." In other words, accept and understand how [sociological] racism and discrimination promotes undesirable, counterproductive results within the receiving community.

3. Treat the people suffering from racial problems as equals, rather than exalting one's self, and anthropologically "studying" these people like you are trying to classify an animal.

4. Destroy the vectors in which this racial problem thrives (mostly mental, but there are plenty of tangible vectors.)

5. Understand the sociological, political, psychological and physical aspects of racism (this requires #1 and #2 is masterfully understood.)

6. Listen, and don't dismiss and discount something because it has been said before, or because it doesn't sound important to you as an individual.

7. Accept the fact that no matter how crime Black people commit, Black people are equal to White people when it comes to all inalienable rights, civil rights, social rights, political rights, pedestrian rights, and in terms of the genus of the species.

8. Accept the fact that White people are not inherently smarter, more honest, more loving, more civilly responsible, more socially responsible, more giving, more reliable, more punctual, more aesthetically pleasing, less prone to crime, less prone to drugs, or more human than Black people.

That is a good place to start.



Because they are controlled puppets that play civil rights champions, meant to be the mouthpieces of Black America - and ridiculed by people like you for their silliness. Most Black people don't pay attention to them because we know this. Yet, they are doing their job, because while we see them for what they are, most non-black people (for some reason) believe these two are The Authority on everything black.

What would you specifically recommend being done to address your opinion of the 8 issues above? You are king for a day, give us specifics as to how you solve the issues you mention.

 

[Lollerskates]

So what would you do to promote black (or "brown"...) achievements?

Well I would probably start by asking the question you asked (if I was White,) with a genuine desire to understand how this could be done, and with the intent to be a part of making that happen (if asked/welcomed/obliged.)

The historical achievements of minorities in America would be a required history course in High School, or at least an elective (but I fear that if it were an elective, very few people would take it.)

I would want to see the achievements of minorities in America to be featured in mainstream media not as "specials," or as something that specifically focus on the minority (instead of the accomplishment.) I would want to see the achievements of minorities in America featured in mainstream media with the same frequency and continuity as White accomplishments are treated.

I would want minority accomplishments to focus on the accomplishment, instead of how a minority did something spectacular - as if it is impressive a minority was able to do whatever because they are a minority.

There needs to be a stop in sensationalizing minority accomplishments with a story of "overcoming obstacles," and focus on the accomplishment (this is what they did with Gabby Douglas.) There is nothing wrong with a minority accomplishment in which a minority didn't come from a single-parent household, or didn't come from poverty, or didn't come from a ghetto, or didn't experience verbal abuse/discrimination by peers. There are plenty of minorities that have accomplished great things, and they fit in this category. There is such a thing as a "pure" victory in the minority community; not every minority that accomplishes something comes from some sort of struggle.

The things above are just a start. The myriad of accomplishes within the minority community are already there. They just need to be exploited in a way that does not make them seem like novelties, or rarities.

 

[Lollerskates]

What would you specifically recommend being done to address your opinion of the 8 issues above? You are king for a day, give us specifics as to how you solve the issues you mention.

I'm King everyday Broseph (at least in my own household )

As far as #8 is concerned, I would say the first thing I would do would be to hope people realize #8 is a fact, and not an opinion. That, despite how much statistics support a certain belief, it doesn't mean it is true absolutely. (But, hope isn't exactly the most active of actions, is it?)

I really can't do more than that to solve the issues of #8; #8 is one of those "do you believe water is wet" types of things. I would hope all people realize White people are, for example, not more human than Black people (though I know many don't.) Although, we are not that far removed from the "Black people are monkeys/apes - it's a scientific fact" days.

 

[PassionFruit]

I say "to a certain extent" because, if we're talking about achievements from all non-white people like Lollerskates mentioned, we would end up studying world history - which most schools don't do. They just learn the history of their own country.

Oh of course. I wouldn't suggest otherwise.

What would you specifically recommend being done to address your opinion of the 8 issues above? You are king for a day, give us specifics as to how you solve the issues you mention.

My first suggestion for you would be to educate yourself. There's a plethora of information, google anti-racism, etc.

 

[bhsmte]

Well I would probably start by asking the question you asked (if I was White,) with a genuine desire to understand how this could be done, and with the intent to be a part of making that happen (if asked/welcomed/obliged.)

The historical achievements of minorities in America would be a required history course in High School, or at least an elective (but I fear that if it were an elective, very few people would take it.)

I would want to see the achievements of minorities in America to be featured in mainstream media not as "specials," or as something that specifically focus on the minority (instead of the accomplishment.) I would want to see the achievements of minorities in America featured in mainstream media with the same frequency and continuity as White accomplishments are treated.

I would want minority accomplishments to focus on the accomplishment, instead of how a minority did something spectacular - as if it is impressive a minority was able to do whatever because they are a minority.

There needs to be a stop in sensationalizing minority accomplishments with a story of "overcoming obstacles," and focus on the accomplishment (this is what they did with Gabby Douglas.) There is nothing wrong with a minority accomplishment in which a minority didn't come from a single-parent household, or didn't come from poverty, or didn't come from a ghetto, or didn't experience verbal abuse/discrimination by peers. There are plenty of minorities that have accomplished great things, and they fit in this category. There is such a thing as a "pure" victory in the minority community; not every minority that accomplishes something comes from some sort of struggle.

The things above are just a start. The myriad of accomplishes within the minority community are already there. They just need to be exploited in a way that does not make them seem like novelties, or rarities.

You don't think the achievements of minorities is mentioned in US history courses today?

Also, it sounds like your beef is with the liberal media and how they glorify stories about minorities, not with your average american that goes about their business every day.

Take your average Joe Blow who is a middle manager in a business. Are you saying these people are not hiring blacks when they are the best candidate for a position? If so, what is your evidence? Or, are you saying Joe Blow should hire the black even if he isn't qualified, because that is the right thing to do to solve the problems you feel exist?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Lollerskates: I think there's a problem in your proposal - you want to showcase examples of black and other non-white people who have a achieved something great, but you don't want them to be showcased just because of their race.

Or to put it another way, you want people to know more about (for example) black scientists, rather than people acting surprised that somebody became a scientist even though he was black!

I'm not quite sure that would work. Up until quite recently, the fact that they were successful even though they were black genuinely was an achievement. And besides - most people today are aware of successful black people (like the long list of black actors a few users mentioned earlier) without having to waffle on about how hard it must have been for them to overcome racism.

 

[Lollerskates]

Lollerskates: I think there's a problem in your proposal - you want to showcase examples of black and other non-white people who have a achieved something great, but you don't want them to be showcased just because of their race.

Or to put it another way, you want people to know more about (for example) black scientists, rather than people acting surprised that somebody became a scientist even though he was black!

I'm not quite sure that would work. Up until quite recently, the fact that they were successful even though they were black genuinely was an achievement. And besides - most people today are aware of successful black people (like the long list of black actors a few users mentioned earlier) without having to waffle on about how hard it must have been for them to overcome racism.

Maybe outside of the States people can recognize successful minority accomplishments without, for example, saying, "...and s/he did all of that, despite being [insert race here]!" But, inside the States, that isn't the case.

Concerning your other points, I am not so much saying I want to see the accomplishment of a [minority], as much as I want to see the accomplishment PERIOD (i.e. without a need to focus on race.) I would 100% agree with you - if this was 1964. In other words, for what I said to work and not be a problem:

1) either we would need to be a "post-racist, [post-] modern, colorblind, progressive" country, and do what I said above, or

2) maintain that we are not a post-racist, post-modern, colorblind, progressive nation - that their are serious problems with discrimination and racism in the nation. Then, it would be "kosher" to attach and sensationalize race with accomplishment.

The States can't claim both positions. And, in a way, I suppose I am challenging the collective consciousness of the States to adhere to 1), or 2). I have said many times before that I appreciate overt racism because at least I know where you stand, and whether or not I should entertain anything about you. But, I cannot respect institutionalized, covert racism in which the person(s) claim to support a certain people while at the same time supporting and contributing to things that are meant to discriminate and debase these same "certain people."

 

[bhsmte]

I'm King everyday Broseph (at least in my own household )

As far as #8 is concerned, I would say the first thing I would do would be to hope people realize #8 is a fact, and not an opinion. That, despite how much statistics support a certain belief, it doesn't mean it is true absolutely. (But, hope isn't exactly the most active of actions, is it?)

I really can't do more than that to solve the issues of #8; #8 is one of those "do you water is wet" types of things. I would hope all people realize White people are, for example, not more human than Black people (though I know many don't.) Although, we are not that far removed from the "Black people are monkeys/apes - it's a scientific fact" days.

I really don't think there are many people floating around that feel blacks don't have the same capabilities as whites and I believe this has been demonstrated quite well in the last 40 years in how this has evolved.

The issue really comes down to culture I believe and changing a culture, that allows more widespread success, needs to come from within a culture for it to take hold and can't be forced upon them from the outside.

Let me give you a life experience of mine in regards to a culture. As I mentioned, I have been a healthcare executive for 20 years and I have hired probably over 20 black people to various positions over the years and people who work for me have done the same. In that 20 years, I (or my company) has faced 3 EEOC claims and they were all from black nurses that we had hired. They all claimed that their supervisor (who worked for me) was racist against them because they were black. Well, when we hired these people they were black, so how exactly were we racist or prejudice? Every one of these 3 nurses had been put on a performance plan because of poor job performance and we had followed all company policies and were clear in where their performance fell short. They were each given ample opportunities to correct the problems and each one filed an EEOC claim when they were terminated and each one of them had significant attitude problems that had impacted numerous people in their office.

Bottom line, each of them played the race card, simply because they could and not based on any justification. The EEOC dropped all three of these claims as soon as they did a preliminary investigation, because it became clear to even the investigators (who were all black) knew these were bogus claims and the investigators told me; "we see this all the time, blacks claiming they was racism or prejudice, because they feel they can play the race card.

This, is the culture that needs to go away, if any race wants to accomplish what they can.

 

[Lollerskates]

I really don't think there are many people floating around that feel blacks don't have the same capabilities as whites and I believe this has been demonstrated quite well in the last 40 years in how this has evolved.

Well, you get the privilege of seeing these types of people en masse when you are black, or a discriminated minority. The people still exist, and they are exposing themselves often. When Obama won the presidency the first and second time, the twittersphere expose a lot of these people - both young, middle-aged and old. It has just be hidden very well since the Civil Rights Era.

The issue really comes down to culture I believe and changing a culture, that allows more widespread success, needs to come from within a culture for it to take hold and can't be forced upon them from the outside.

Let me give you a life experience of mine in regards to a culture. As I mentioned, I have been a healthcare executive for 20 years and I have hired probably over 20 black people to various positions over the years and people who work for me have done the same. In that 20 years, I (or my company) has faced 3 EEOC claims and they were all from black nurses that we had hired. They all claimed that their supervisor (who worked for me) was racist against them because they were black. Well, when we hired these people they were black, so how exactly were we racist or prejudice? Every one of these 3 nurses had been put on a performance plan because of poor job performance and we had followed all company policies and were clear in where their performance fell short. They were each given ample opportunities to correct the problems and each one filed an EEOC claim when they were terminated and each one of them had significant attitude problems that had impacted numerous people in their office.

Bottom line, each of them played the race card, simply because they could and not based on any justification. The EEOC dropped all three of these claims as soon as they did a preliminary investigation, because it became clear to even the investigators (who were all black) knew these were bogus claims and the investigators told me; "we see this all the time, blacks claiming they was racism or prejudice, because they feel they can play the race card.

This, is the culture that needs to go away, if any race wants to accomplish what they can.

Yes, there are bad apples in every situation, and it is unfortunate for both sides. I wont comment on your particular experience other than that.

I would say that the examples of people exploiting solutions/protections from racism shouldn't nullify the fact that racism exists in the workplace, nor should it marginalize real cases of workplace racism. It also shouldn't diminish the very real problems with discrimination and racism in the States - and how because it is not overt that it can be even more damaging that perceived.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

In other words, for what I said to work and not be a problem:

1) either we would need to be a "post-racist, [post-] modern, colorblind, progressive" country, and do what I said above, or

2) maintain that we are not a post-racist, post-modern, colorblind, progressive nation - that their are serious problems with discrimination and racism in the nation. Then, it would be "kosher" to attach and sensationalize race with accomplishment.

I really don't think there are many people floating around that feel blacks don't have the same capabilities as whites and I believe this has been demonstrated quite well in the last 40 years in how this has evolved.

I'm inclined to agree with bhsmte here. And here's a chance for me to trot out yet more data:

(via Gallup.com)

Here is a list in how attitudes towards presidential candidates have changed over the last century. As you can see, the attitudes towards a potential black candidate has improved dramatically since 1958, while in 1933 having a black candidate wasn't even an option.

Something else noticeable - in 1958 people were more likely to vote for a Jew or a woman as president than a black person. Though of course, America has yet to have a female or Jewish president.

 

[Lollerskates]

You don't think the achievements of minorities is mentioned in US history courses today?

Not at all in the volume they need to be, with nowhere near the amount of background and critical analysis. You will only get a marginal amount of black achievements as literal blips - if you take AP history courses.

Also, it sounds like your beef is with the liberal media and how they glorify stories about minorities, not with your average american that goes about their business every day.

My beef is with anyone that ignores and/or denies racism in the States exist, the intricacies of [institutional]racism, how they affect minority progress, the damage it does especially as it is not overt, and why there is racism in the first place. In general, my beef is with anyone aligned and qualified as what I am arguing against in my many posts in this thread (especially recent posts.) It could (and many times is) the average American, liberal media, conservative media - any one individual aligned and qualified as what I am arguing against.

Take your average Joe Blow who is a middle manager in a business. Are you saying these people are not hiring blacks when they are the best candidate for a position? If so, what is your evidence? Or, are you saying Joe Blow should hire the black even if he isn't qualified, because that is the right thing to do to solve the problems you feel exist?

I cant say who someone should and shouldn't hire. But, if an employer is hiring someone because of race, or prejudices, or ignorance, then it is a problem. There have been many instances recently in which Black and Latino people land personal interviews after a phone interview, sounding as if they are cosmopolitan - and when they get to the personal interview, the interviewer is confused and uncomfortable, or told "the position has been filled" after seeing what the person looks like. And, many times, this is after the job seeker had built rapport, and were all but guaranteed the position.

I don't think there should be a need for Affirmative Action, or EOE, but there is. And, that is the sad part.

 

[Lollerskates]

I'm inclined to agree with bhsmte here. And here's a chance for me to trot out yet more data:

(via Gallup.com)

Here is a list in how attitudes towards presidential candidates have changed over the last century. As you can see, the attitudes towards a potential black candidate has improved dramatically since 1958, while in 1933 having a black candidate wasn't even an option.

Something else noticeable - in 1958 people were more likely to vote for a Jew or a woman as president than a black person. Though of course, America has yet to have a female or Jewish president.

How many people were polled? What region of the States did this poll takes place? How many of each race was polled? What was the spread of economic position for each person polled, per race? How did each person polled view their life and position in America, per race? How many kids did each person polled have, per race? Was the person polled married, and what was the distribution of married vs. unmarried persons, per race? How many were divorced, per race? How many of the people polled were religious, per race? How many of the people polled were straight, per race? How many of the people polled were believers in evolution, per race? How often does each person polled watch the news, or read the newspaper, per race? What is each person's political alignment, and what is the distribution of this per race? ...

You see, statistics are fine, if you don't have the sample space (necessary in judging sensitive issues.)

 

[bhsmte]

Not at all in the volume they need to be, with nowhere near the amount of background and critical analysis. You will only get a marginal amount of black achievements as literal blips - if you take AP history courses.



My beef is with anyone that ignores and/or denies racism in the States exist, the intricacies of [institutional]racism, how they affect minority progress, the damage it does especially as it is not overt, and why there is racism in the first place. In general, my beef is with anyone aligned and qualified as what I am arguing against in my many posts in this thread (especially recent posts.) It could (and many times is) the average American, liberal media, conservative media - any one individual aligned and qualified as what I am arguing against.



I cant say who someone should and shouldn't hire. But, if an employer is hiring someone because of race, or prejudices, or ignorance, then it is a problem. There have been many instances recently in which Black and Latino people land personal interviews after a phone interview, sounding as if they are cosmopolitan - and when they get to the personal interview, the interviewer is confused and uncomfortable, or told "the position has been filled" after seeing what the person looks like. And, many times, this is after the job seeker had built rapport, and were all but guaranteed the position.

I don't think there should be a need for Affirmative Action, or EOE, but there is. And, that is the sad part.

It is obvious this is a passionate topic to you, but IMO, you are overreaching in many of your claims and are also discounting, the racism that exists amongst blacks themselves against non-blacks.

Another one we can respectfully agree to disagree on.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

How many people were polled? What region of the States did this poll takes place? How many of each race was polled? What was the spread of economic position for each person polled, per race? How did each person polled view their life and position in America, per race? How many kids did each person polled have, per race? Was the person polled married, and what was the distribution of married vs. unmarried persons, per race? How many were divorced, per race? How many of the people polled were religious, per race? How many of the people polled were straight, per race? How many of the people polled were believers in evolution, per race? How often does each person polled watch the news, or read the newspaper, per race? What is each person's political alignment, and what is the distribution of this per race? ...

The page on that particular poll also looks at political alignment and age group. A full explanation on how they collected the data is at the bottom of the page under "View methodology, full question results, and trend data" (PDF file).

 

[bhsmte]

I'm inclined to agree with bhsmte here. And here's a chance for me to trot out yet more data:

(via Gallup.com)

Here is a list in how attitudes towards presidential candidates have changed over the last century. As you can see, the attitudes towards a potential black candidate has improved dramatically since 1958, while in 1933 having a black candidate wasn't even an option.

Something else noticeable - in 1958 people were more likely to vote for a Jew or a woman as president than a black person. Though of course, America has yet to have a female or Jewish president.

This poll doesn't surprise me and supports a comment I made the other day, the worst label you can have in America is being an atheist. Which cracks me up, because so many people in this nation claim to be a christian, when they really are not.

See attached poll about racism in America.

 

[Lollerskates]

Another one we can respectfully agree to disagree on.

We do seem to respectfully disagree often, don't we? I suppose it is much better than disrespectfully disagreeing. Take care

 

[bhsmte]

This poll doesn't surprise me and supports a comment I made the other day, the worst label you can have in America is being an atheist. Which cracks me up, because so many people in this nation claim to be a christian, when they really are not.

See attached poll about racism in America.

More Americans View Blacks As Racist Than Whites, Hispanics - Rasmussen Reports™

 

[Lollerskates]

The page on that particular poll also looks at political alignment and age group. A full explanation on how they collected the data is at the bottom of the page under "View methodology, full question results, and trend data" (PDF file).

Thank you for this.

For me, I am not comfortable drawing conclusions, and taking seriously a poll whose sample is 1004 people (or of each category.) That is a very small number compared to the whole of each category.

 

[bhsmte]

Thank you for this.

For me, I am not comfortable drawing conclusions, and taking seriously a poll whose sample is 1004 people (or of each category.) That is a very small number compared to the whole of each category.

The Gallup folks have a solid reputation, when it comes to polling.

 

[Ken-1122]

You are still separating the person from the group - when the individual is distinctly part of the group. As I alluded to before, does one CIA agent's hit mean that it was his/her personal accomplishment - or is it the accomplishment of the entire CIA, especially when the orders come directly from the CIA?

If a Klansman is in political places of power, it isn't just the person's individual accomplishment: it is the accomplishment of the entire organization, because the entire organization can and will benefit from that one person's position. So, a score of individual racists who kept their Klan ties and have political power means that the Klan has multiple vectors for exploiting political power.

I disagree. In the examples you gave of Klan members and former members in positions of power, I read the articles and none of the articles implied that their Klan memberships colored the way they did their jobs; as a matter of fact, some of the articles mentioned there was no indication their job was affected by their beliefs. Congressman Robert Byrd for example; was a democrat and looking strictly at his voting record you would have no idea he had any Klan ties. As a matter of fact he even voted for Civil Rights legislation. It isn’t enough to just wear the badge; you also gotta tow the line. Now don’t get me wrong, I am not saying there are no people with Klan ties who are secretly towing the line for the group I’m just saying you can’t assume they all are (that’s why I keep separating the person from thegroup) and the examples you gave are bad examples of klan members towing the line. To assume they all are is akin to assuming all the Christians in politics are secretly towing the line for Christianity and are secretly trying to put the bible back in school, shut down all the abortion clinics, post the 10 commandments in every public square imaginable, and turning this great country of ours into a Christian nation!

Ah, the "I'm not Webster, so what do I know" argument. Was I ever talking about the dictionary definition of racism, or have I continually spoken about the sociological definition of racism - and explicitly said it was the sociological definition?

Post #118 was the beginning of this particular debate I’ve been having with you. In that post you said nothing about sociological definition of racism. You said “racism is about power to substantiate your bigotry. That is what I was debating against. Now if you wanna talk about sociological racism, institutional racism, or whatever; fine! But indicate that! Otherwise it would be akin to a racist (implying institutional racism) saying “I am not a racist because racism is a structure and I am a human being.[/font]

This thread is not a discussion of the definition of racism. It is about the sociological implications racism has on "The black community."

No! this thread is about what Bill O’reily said in the video in the OP.[/font]

And, if you are saying racism is nothing more than what Webster says it is - which is "a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" - then you exclude the lot of "armchair" bigots, and prejudiced people, which includes all races.

Wait a minute! You are the one trying to limit racism to something that only the powerful can engage in; I am saying it is everything you are mentioning and then some! As I said before, some of the most racist people have little or no power at all.

K