The Binding of Isaac, and the limits of religious discourse

[FireDragon76]

Pastor gave a sermon yesterday on the binding of Isaac. I found it deeply disturbing, and honestly, this is probably the most difficult story in the whole Bible. To not even acknowledge that aspect of the story seems problematic. I just don't get it. Pastor loves this story, because it shows a type of Christ and in his words it has "pathos" (huh? I think its just creepy and disturbing). I just see a redactor trying to salvage an ancient story of dubious morality, because the father of a nation tried to sacrifice his son on a particular hill (some scholars think the original story actually had Abraham killing Isaac). To not even engage with higher criticism of the text is just not something I care for.

And pastor largely preached on it being a shadow or type of Christ, but I am not sure it works all that well, unless we want to suggest that God is a child abuser. I think preaching on this subject in this manner wasn't helpful. Sometimes I think pastor is losing perspective. I mean, a 4 year old little girl was sitting there in the pews. What message is she supposed to take from that?

I think I'm going to try to dig up some other perspectives on this story, and I'd also like to hear from others here what we are to make of this story.

Sometimes I wonder why we cannot focus on the grace and hospitality of Jesus towards those on the margins of society, the clear message of the Gospels once you set aside what Bonhoeffer called the notion of a "religious a priori of mankind". Instead we focus on messages that are potentially very damaging.

 

[FireDragon76]

BTW, I found a Reformed Jewish commentary on the story of the Akedah, and I'm going to try to work through it.

I am actually seriously thinking of complaining to the bishop. The religion I am seeing in this church is not being socially responsible. I am afraid the religion pastor is increasingly presenting is simply not congruent with the ethos of the ELCA. Please pray for me, and pray for my church.

The Sacrifice of Isaac in Context: Recovering a Lost Ending of the Akedah - TheTorah.com

 

[Tree of Life]

BTW, I found a Reformed Jewish commentary on the story of the Akedah, and I'm going to try to work through it.

I am actually seriously thinking of complaining to the bishop. The religion I am seeing in this church is not being socially responsible. Please pray for me, and pray for my church.

The Sacrifice of Isaac in Context: Recovering a Lost Ending of the Akedah - TheTorah.com

Don't complain to the bishop until you've spoken to your pastor. This may sound like a silly question, but what specifically do you find troubling about the story?

 

[tampasteve]

I know you are fairly near me in location, I know a very good Reform Rabbi that would likely be happy to speak to you about this. He knows I am not Jewish but is always helpful, insightful, and friendly. He helped me through a tough spot theologically recently.

 

[FireDragon76]

Don't complain to the bishop until you've spoken to your pastor. This may sound like a silly question, but what specifically do you find troubling about the story?

He pleaded with God over the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, but not over his own son? He merely obeys.

I don't so much object to what pastor said, it's what he didn't say. He didn't acknowledge how difficult this story is, or how there have sadly been tragic cases of where people really do kill their children for religious motivations. I think pastor has gone off the deep end. You simply cannot tell a story like this and overlook that.

 

[Tree of Life]

He pleaded with God over the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, but not over his own son? He merely obeys.

So it's Abraham's response that you find troubling?

I don't so much object to what pastor said, it's what he didn't say. He didn't acknowledge how difficult this story is, or how there have sadly been tragic cases of where people really do kill their children for religious motivations. I think pastor has gone off the deep end. You simply cannot tell a story like this and overlook that.

Speaking as a pastor, a pastor can very easily overlook something like this. We are concerned with trying to make sense of a biblical story to a mixed congregation in the span of 20-30 minutes. We don't have time to open every box or acknowledge every issue. It's easy to overlook stuff or be indelicate. If I were you I would bring your concerns to his attention.

 

[FireDragon76]

So it's Abraham's response that you find troubling?

Yes.

Are you familiar with the scene in Star Trek V where Kirk asks "God", "What does God need with a starship?" The Jewish tradition is full of people complaining and lamenting to God without being accused of unrighteousness, but Abraham in this story simply does not do that.

Speaking as a pastor, a pastor can very easily overlook something like this. We are concerned with trying to make sense of a biblical story to a mixed congregation in the span of 20-30 minutes. We don't have time to open every box or acknowledge every issue. It's easy to overlook stuff or be indelicate. If I were you I would bring your concerns to his attention.

I've spoken to him before in the past about similar concerns. He has a habit of becoming very mystical and deep, and I've cautioned him about that. I used to be in an Orthodox church, and there was plenty of that sort of religion (and honestly it contributed to me having a mental breakdown at one point due to it adding additional anxiety to my life), and I just came to the realization that there comes a point you must lay that sort of thing aside in the interests of appealing to people who for all purposes, have to get on with life.

He is also very much engaged with contemplative prayer and things like that (I have limited transportation so I just don't participate in those activities at church), which is I am not against per se, but I worry it's causing him to lose perspective. It's very important you don't lose your humanity in the name of spirituality, as far as I am concerned.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes.

Are you familiar with the scene in Star Trek V where Kirk asks "God", "What does God need with a starship?" The Jewish tradition is full of people complaining and lamenting to God without being accused of unrighteousness, but Abraham in this story simply does not do that.

Are you troubled by God in this story? Are you troubled by Isaac's obedience? He does not seem to resist being sacrificed.

I've spoken to him before in the past about similar concerns. He has a habit of becoming very mystical and deep, and I've cautioned him about that. I used to be in an Orthodox church, and there was plenty of that sort of religion (and honestly it contributed to me having a mental breakdown at one point due to it adding additional anxiety to my life), and I just came to the realization that there comes a point you must lay that sort of thing aside in the interests of appealing to people who for all purposes, have to get on with life.

He is also very much engaged with contemplative prayer and things like that (I have limited transportation so I just don't participate in those activities at church), which is I am not rabidly against, but I worry it's causing him to lose perspective. It's very important you don't lose your humanity in the name of spirituality, as far as I am concerned.

I would suggest talking to him again.

 

[FireDragon76]

Are you troubled by God in this story? Are you troubled by Isaac's obedience? He does not seem to resist being sacrificed.

Yeah, but according to that Jewish commentary I linked to, Isaac is not even a real fleshed out character in the story, he's just a object to advance the story. That's sort of dehumanizing. We really don't know if Isaac was afraid or not, we just assume.

Now, dehumanizing children was commonplace in that time period, even the Bible speaks of them as seed. But Jesus didn't approve of that sort of thing, when the disciples tried to chase away children, he rebuked them.

I guess it bothers me because there's a little girl at church that we see alot, she particularly likes interacting with my S.O. She's so full of life and curiosity and she's intelligent for being only 4 years old (she's even started to understand what communion is about). I'd hate for her to have that crushed out of her. To be blunt, alot of folks at my Lutheran church have the opposite kind of personality, and I wonder if its the result of some kind of preaching that they are used to.

 

[St_Worm2]

Are you troubled by God in this story? Are you troubled by Isaac's obedience? He does not seem to resist being sacrifice.

Hi @FireDragon76, this is a part of the story that I've always found interesting (most of the following comes from our friends at GotQuestions.org, just FYI).

The term boy or lad used to refer to Isaac (Genesis 21:5, 12) is translated from a flexible Hebrew term that does not necessarily refer to a young boy. Rather, the term encompasses a wide range of meanings—from a baby (e.g., Exodus 2:6; 2 Samuel 12:16) to a young man (e.g., Absalom in 2 Samuel 14:21; 18:5). It even can refer to a “steward” or “servant” (e.g., 2 Samuel 16:1) as well as a “junior officer” (1 Kings 20:14, 15, 17, 19). In Genesis 22:5 the servants that accompanied Abraham and Isaac are called “young men” (Genesis 22:3, 5, 19, ESV). The word translated “young men” is the same word applied to Isaac in verses 5 and 12.

The most useful clue to how old Isaac was is Genesis 22:6. As they climb the mountain, Isaac is the one carrying the large pile of wood. Wood enough for a burnt sacrifice would have been fairly heavy. This fact tells us Isaac wasn’t a small child when he was to be sacrificed; he was at least a healthy teenager. Isaac’s age also adds an interesting dimension to the story. If he was strong enough to carry the wood up the mountain, then he was probably strong enough to resist being sacrificed and fend off Abraham if he had wanted to. The fact that Isaac allowed himself to be bound and placed on the altar (verse 9) shows that Isaac continued to trust his father.

Several commentators have weighed in on the question of how old Isaac was when he was to be sacrificed: 18 to 20 years old (Leupold, 1:625); 25 years old (Josephus, 1.13.2); about 33 years old (Adam Clarke, 1:140); and over 20 years old (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, p. 29).

*(if memory serves, I have one commentary that believes he 'could' have been as young as 15-16 yrs old, but I've read ~none~ that believe that he was a young "boy" at the time, while his dad, was definitely an old man .. perhaps 120-130 yrs old)

Taking all the evidence, we can safely say that Isaac was a young man—not a young boy—when Abraham attempted to sacrifice him on Mt. Moriah.

--David

 

[FireDragon76]

That Jewish commentary is fascinating. Apparrently, many scholars believe the original E source had Abraham sacrificing his son, and this notion survived in Jewish tradition, but a redactor later adds a deus ex machina at the last minute.

So, it is plausibly a story about human sacrifice but later, a Jewish scribe came along and tried to turn it into a story of redemption instead. That would explain the clumsiness of the flow of the narrative.

 

[Tree of Life]

That Jewish commentary is fascinating. Apparrently, many scholars believe the original E source had Abraham sacrificing his son, and this notion survived in Jewish tradition, but a redactor later adds a deus ex machina at the last minute.

So, it is plausibly a story about human sacrifice but later, a Jewish scribe came along and tried to turn it into a story of redemption instead. That would explain the clumsiness of the flow of the narrative.

I don't see how that solves your existential problem. Abraham actually sacrificing his son seems far worse!

 

[Chris V++]

And pastor largely preached on it being a shadow or type of Christ, ....

I had a pastor who preached from the same standpoint. He even said Isaac was much older than how he is usually depicted in art and that Isaac went willingly and even carried the wood which foreshadowed Jesus carrying the cross. The pastor speculated Abraham would have been too old to bind Isaac forcibly so even that was a sign that Isaac was a willing participant.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't see how that solves your existential problem. Abraham actually sacrificing his son seems far worse!

Not really. The story emerged from an ANE background of polytheism and human sacrifice and they attempted to redact it to fit with new theology. In the original hypothetical E document, Abraham sacrifices his son to atone for his perceived misdeeds. Christians just read the whole story as an allegory for Christ.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not really. The story emerged from an ANE background of polytheism and human sacrifice and they attempted to redact it to fit with new theology. In the original hypothetical E document, Abraham sacrifices his son to atone for his perceived misdeeds.

Two things in response. The documentary hypothesis has become incredible in the best and most current biblical scholarship. And why would a redactor feel the need to keep such a bizarre story if he wanted to put a positive spin on it?

Christians just read the whole story as an allegory for Christ.

They learned from Luther! There are many reasons why we should see Christ in the story. Mount Moriah later becomes the temple mount - the place of God's provision and sacrifice. The story is very much about substitutionary atonement.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Pastor gave a sermon yesterday on the binding of Isaac. I found it deeply disturbing, and honestly, this is probably the most difficult story in the whole Bible. To not even acknowledge that aspect of the story seems problematic. I just don't get it. Pastor loves this story, because it shows a type of Christ and in his words it has "pathos" (huh? I think its just creepy and disturbing). I just see a redactor trying to salvage an ancient story of dubious morality, because the father of a nation tried to sacrifice his son on a particular hill (some scholars think the original story actually had Abraham killing Isaac). To not even engage with higher criticism of the text is just not something I care for.

And pastor largely preached on it being a shadow or type of Christ, but I am not sure it works all that well, unless we want to suggest that God is a child abuser. I think preaching on this subject in this manner wasn't helpful. Sometimes I think pastor is losing perspective. I mean, a 4 year old little girl was sitting there in the pews. What message is she supposed to take from that?

I think I'm going to try to dig up some other perspectives on this story, and I'd also like to hear from others here what we are to make of this story.

Sometimes I wonder why we cannot focus on the grace and hospitality of Jesus towards those on the margins of society, the clear message of the Gospels once you set aside what Bonhoeffer called the notion of a "religious a priori of mankind". Instead we focus on messages that are potentially very damaging.

The bible recounts events that are staggering in their importance to mankind and to the church. This was such a singular event, and it should be studied as such. The typology of this story and others surrounding the patriarchs and their wives is profoundly important in understanding God's redemptive plan for mankind.

Regarding the children listening to this story. Children that age don't fully comprehend life yet, but understand that their lives are in their parents hands, and that they will be obedient to their parents, even to death.

No doubt many have heard the heart rending story of the young boy whose parents told him that his little brother needed his blood transfused into him in order to survive a serious illness. The boy willingly submitted and it was only when his parents saw the fear on his face and the tears flowing down his cheeks that they realized that the boy believed he was giving up all of his blood and thus his life for his little brother. Such is the love and obedience of children.

 

[FireDragon76]

The bible recounts events that are staggering in their importance to mankind and to the church. This was such a singular event, and it should be studied as such. The typology of this story and others surrounding the patriarchs and their wives is profoundly important in understanding God's redemptive plan for mankind.

Regarding the children listening to this story. Children that age don't fully comprehend life yet, but understand that their lives are in their parents hands, and that they will be obedient to their parents, even to death.

I don't think children that age want to be hurt. They would probably plead with their parents not to be hurt. That is what happens in real life, sadly, in too many cases.

And please remember this is a section of the forum for those that are liberals.

 

[FireDragon76]

Two things in response. The documentary hypothesis has become incredible in the best and most current biblical scholarship. And why would a redactor feel the need to keep such a bizarre story if he wanted to put a positive spin on it?

Rabbi Tzemah Yoreh seems to take it seriously, and he has a degree from Hebrew University. His people wrote the book, so I would think he knows a thing or two about what it means.

 

[Tree of Life]

Rabbi Tzemah Yoreh seems to take it seriously.

People who take JEDP seriously are, respectfully, out of touch.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't think children that age want to be hurt. They would probably plead with their parents not to be hurt. That is what happens in real life, sadly, in too many cases.

And please remember this is a section of the forum for those that are liberals.

Sorry. I will unwatch.