Discussion The binding and loosing contention

[ARBITER01]

It seems there are folks who cannot understand the concept of binding and loosing in scripture. Let's see if we can bring some enlightenment to it.

There are two sections of scripture that mention the binding and loosing,.... here is the first,...

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound by heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed by heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ.

Here the concept is associated with the keys of the kingdom of heaven from Jesus. This makes perfect sense since it is an authority being given unto the believer from The Lord. This authority is part of Jesus building His church.

The second mention of it doesn't seem to make that much sense,....

Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, shew him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter, and said to him, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? until seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.

Basically word for word, but it's stuck in the middle of a different subject. In fact, two differing subjects interrupt the flow of the original subject of brother sinning against brother. It sticks out like a sore thumb in this regard.

If we remove the two differing subjects from the text, the flow of the original subject then makes sense,...

Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, shew him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter, and said to him, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? until seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.

Anyways,...I will be using Matthew 16's mention of it, not chapter 18.

 

[hislegacy]

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[hislegacy]

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound by heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed by heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ.

If you click on the links in your post - they read differently.

I'm wondering why.

 

[hislegacy]

It seems there are folks who cannot understand the concept of binding and loosing in scripture. Let's see if we can bring some enlightenment to it.

There are two sections of scripture that mention the binding and loosing,.... here is the first,...

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound by heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed by heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ.

The reader will note that no place in those verses are demons mentioned. In fact, there is no mention of demons or the enemy in the entire chapter.

Here the concept is associated with the keys of the kingdom of heaven from Jesus. This makes perfect sense since it is an authority being given unto the believer from The Lord. This authority is part of Jesus building His church.

On this we agree -

The second mention of it doesn't seem to make that much sense,....

That is because it makes no sense concerning the demonic because Jesus is NOT addressing the demonic. He is very plainly addressing sin.

Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, shew him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter, and said to him, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? until seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.

Basically word for word, but it's stuck in the middle of a different subject. In fact, two differing subjects interrupt the flow of the original subject of brother sinning against brother. It sticks out like a sore thumb in this regard.

Absolutely not - Jesus is very plain on the subject He is speaking of. The only time it would stick out is if we try to make it say something it does not say.

If we remove the two differing subjects from the text, the flow of the original subject then makes sense,...

And removing it from scriptural context is the ONLY way to make it fit. We cannot build a doctrine or teaching by taking it out of the flow of the original subject.

Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, shew him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter, and said to him, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? until seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.

Anyways,...I will be using Matthew 16's mention of it, not chapter 18.

Could you kindly start by explaining the difference in the scripture you linked to and your quotations of that scripture.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If you click on the links in your post - they read differently.

View attachment 330086

I'm wondering why.

I am reminded of a scripture when reading this post.

Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. (2 Timothy 2:14)

 

[hislegacy]

I am reminded of a scripture when reading this post.

Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. (2 Timothy 2:14)

I like the very next verse also:

2 Timothy 2:25. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I like the very next verse also:

2 Timothy 2:25. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Meaning, don't rip the bible up the middle, this is the wrong way to divide the bible.

But nitpicking over the meaning of words, results in missing the main point.

 

[hislegacy]

But nitpicking over the meaning of words, results in missing the main point.

Thank you for your opinion, we view it differently.

 

[ARBITER01]

Continuing on, but with a few points first,...

The gospels, being the oldest of the books, are not always consistent on their accounts. Some of the writers found good sources and some didn't. I personally think Luke did us a great favor in his research, but the other accounts also had stuff that Luke didn't. And John's account is altogether different than the others.

Some of these aspects were even more pronounced when the 1881 Revised Version came out. Although I do think many areas that were missing sections in that version were just pruned out for whatever reasons, some of the accounts in some of the gospels were shown to be questionable in their placement.

But anyways, onward.

Let's look at Matthew 16 again,...

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Some points,..

- The keys of the kingdom are related to Jesus building His church.
- The binding and loosing aspects are related to the keys of the kingdom. The ability is directly related to having been given those keys by Jesus.
- The binding and loosing aspects would seem to be related to a command given by a person (more on this soon).

Concepts agree and make sense here in this chapter. I can't use the verse in the 18th chapter since the verse is placed awkwardly in the middle of concepts foreign to the statement. In other words it doesn't make much sense why the verse is just stuck there in no relation to the surrounding text.

Now,... before we go further, let's look at the statement some,....

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven....... does that make sense? On the face it might seem like it does, but how would what I bind on earth be bound in heaven? Seems like our translators gave us a basic definition of some words.

Let's see if we can fix this,...

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound by heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed by heaven.

Translators use mostly basic definitions of the Greek words they translate into English to try and avoid any semblance of bias. In the process we run into doctrinal issues at times.

Makes a lot more sense with my corrections, too bad that no other translation that I looked at ever caught the problem before, and they probably won't.

Since we are talking about binding, we will look at what Jesus taught about it next.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Thank you for your opinion, we view it differently.

Jesus said something similar though, something about straining at gnats and swallowing the whole camel.

I'm not sure who's part of your collective we, but would recommend to speak for yourself.

 

[hislegacy]

Makes a lot more sense with my corrections, too bad that no other translation that I looked at ever caught the problem before, and they probably won't.

??? You are correcting the translators of the Bible?

The word "in" transliterated en is translated 1,902 times as the English word in and 193 times as the English word by.

I believe you are mistaken.

I mean no offense, but the idea that Greek scholars over the last 400 years have never caught the 'problem' is highly doubtful.

Example:

Notice in Matt 2:5 "en" is used twice in the same sentence, once translate "in" and the second time "by". The word is not interchangeable, but translated based on the context in which it is used.

 

[hislegacy]

Jesus said something similar though, something about straining at gnats and swallowing the whole camel.

I'm not sure who's part of your collective we, but would recommend to speak for yourself.

Okie dokie Have a great day!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Okie dokie Have a great day!

U2

 

[hislegacy]

There are 78 references to demons in the New Testament:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: demon

www.biblegateway.com

Not one was bound.

There are 12 references to binding in the New Testament:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: bind

www.biblegateway.com

Not one has to do with demons (when read in context)

There are 11 reference to fight in the New Testament:

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: fight

www.biblegateway.com

not one references demons

 

[ARBITER01]

Jesus said something similar though, something about straining at gnats and swallowing the whole camel.

I'm not sure who's part of your collective we, but would recommend to speak for yourself.

Having a war in the thread Michael? Unfortunate if so.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Having a war in the thread Michael? Unfortunate if so.

The discussion in question is over.

Go back in history in the forum, that's what a war looks like.

 

[ARBITER01]

The discussion in question is over.

Go back in history in the forum, that's what a war looks like.

Oh, quite a few of us know about that war on here. Anyways, back to the topic.

 

[ARBITER01]

Before I go further on the subject, I wanted to show how translators normally get things messed up. Let's take Acts 2:38 for instance,...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is the KJV of the text which many people are familiar with. but let's see how many different ways other translations have differed,...

unto the remission of your sins
to remission of sins
in order to the remission of sins
into the forgiveness of your sins

Translators normally can't always make their minds up when dealing with some doctrinal issues. Additionally, bible committees have their own set of rules they want followed on translations, and then have an editorial committee go over the finished product to "adjust" what they feel needs fixed.

Btw, the correct one out of that list is "into" since we are immersed into The Holy Spirit where the blood of Jesus is applied to our human spirits by Him.

Ok now back to our regular scheduled programming.

 

[ARBITER01]

OK, so Jesus is building His church and we are given key to the kingdom, which I would think provide access to said kingdom. After that we are able to bind and loose "things".

The section of scripture is non-descriptive of what "things." In fact it says "whatever" or "whatsoever" but does not identify what can actually be bound and loosed. Also, the binding and loosing go together it seems. Both actions are mentioned together.

So,.... does Jesus have examples of this or does He teach on this in other sections of scripture?

Whelp,.... I think so. The gospel accounts have a teaching on binding and loosing from Jesus, let's take a look at the first account where this is mentioned,...

Mat 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the dumb man spake and saw.

A possessed man was healed of his demonic possession by Jesus. Healed in this case would mean that the person was released from the possession and his faculties were able to operate again. The type of healing involved would be considered a Spiritual healing since it was the removal of evil spirits by the gifts of healings ministry Jesus demonstrated.

Mat 12:23 And all the multitudes were amazed, and said, Is this the son of David?
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This man doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Uh oh, can't have that. The people can't be considering Jesus the prophesied one to come. We must put a stop to this! The religious leaders of the day had to denounce the actions from Jesus somehow, so they attributed those actions to satan.

Then Jesus schools them for their ignorance,...

Mat 12:25 And knowing their thoughts he said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 and if Satan casteth out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

Then Jesus gets to the meat of the subject,...

Mat 12:28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
Mat 12:29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

So,...
- the mention of the deliverance is tied to the kingdom of GOD, ie it's affiliated to the keys to the kingdom.
- the description of the deliverance, the binding of the evil stronghold in the man and the loosing of the individual from that stronghold, is mentioned together next.

This account is mentioned in two of the other gospels with similar wording.

Will I be able to find any other example in scripture even remotely close to Matthew 16:19 than this one? Absolutely not. There's no other use of binding and loosing mentioned together in any other section of scripture than this from Jesus.

So there you have it. Case closed.

I'll probably move this to a fellowship thread and close this one down.

 

[Joy]

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