Fellowship The binding and loosing contention (Redux)

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
I'll be moving the material over from the old thread and updating where needed.

Read the ruleset prefix for this forum before you post. If you don't agree with the subject, voice your opinion in your own thread, not this one. This is for people who wish to talk a bit and have questions,... fellowship not debate.
 

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
It seems there are folks who cannot understand the concept of binding and loosing in scripture. Let's see if we can bring some enlightenment to it.

There are two sections of scripture that mention the binding and loosing,.... here is the first,...

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound by heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed by heaven.
Mat 16:20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ


Here the concept is associated with the keys of the kingdom of heaven from Jesus. This makes perfect sense since it is an authority being given unto the believer from The Lord. This authority is part of Jesus building His church.

The second mention of it doesn't seem to make that much sense,....

Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, shew him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Mat 18:21 Then came Peter, and said to him, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive hi
m? until seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.

Basically word for word, but it's stuck in the middle of a different subject. In fact, two differing subjects interrupt the flow of the original subject of brother sinning against brother. It sticks out like a sore thumb in this regard.

If we remove the two differing subjects from the text, the flow of the original subject then makes sense,...

Mat 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, shew him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter, and said to him, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive hi
m? until seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times; but, Until seventy times seven.

Anyways,...I will be using Matthew 16's mention of it, not chapter 18.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Continuing on, but with a few points first,...

The gospels, being the oldest of the books, are not always consistent on their accounts. Some of the writers found good sources and some didn't. I personally think Luke did us a great favor in his research, but the other accounts also had stuff that Luke didn't. And John's account is altogether different than the others.

Some of these aspects were even more pronounced when the 1881 Revised Version came out. Although I do think many areas that were missing sections in that version were just pruned out for whatever reasons, some of the accounts in some of the gospels were shown to be questionable in their placement.

But anyways, onward.

Let's look at Matthew 16 again,...

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Some points,..

- The keys of the kingdom are related to Jesus building His church.
- The binding and loosing aspects are related to the keys of the kingdom. The ability is directly related to having been given those keys by Jesus.
- The binding and loosing aspects would seem to be related to a command given by a person (more on this soon).

Concepts agree and make sense here in this chapter. I can't use the verse in the 18th chapter since the verse is placed awkwardly in the middle of concepts foreign to the statement. In other words it doesn't make much sense why the verse is just stuck there in no relation to the surrounding text.

Now,... before we go further, let's look at the statement some,....

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven....... does that make sense? On the face it might seem like it does, but how would what I bind on earth be bound in heaven? Seems like our translators gave us a basic definition of some words.

Let's see if we can fix this,...

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound by heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed by heaven.

Translators use mostly basic definitions of the Greek words they translate into English to try and avoid any semblance of bias. In the process we run into doctrinal issues at times.

Makes a lot more sense with my corrections, too bad that no other translation that I looked at ever caught the problem before, and they probably won't.

Since we are talking about binding, we will look at what Jesus taught about it next.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Before I go further on the subject, I wanted to show how translators normally get things messed up. Let's take Acts 2:38 for instance,...

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This is the KJV of the text which many people are familiar with. but let's see how many different ways other translations have differed,...

unto the remission of your sins
to remission of sins
in order to the remission of sins
into the forgiveness of your sins

Translators normally can't always make their minds up when dealing with some doctrinal issues. Additionally, bible committees have their own set of rules they want followed on translations, and then have an editorial committee go over the finished product to "adjust" what they feel needs fixed.

Btw, the correct one out of that list is "into" since we are immersed into The Holy Spirit where the blood of Jesus is applied to our human spirits by Him.

Ok now back to our regular scheduled programming.
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
OK, so Jesus is building His church and we are given keys to the kingdom, which I would think provide access to said kingdom. After that we are able to bind and loose "things".

The section of scripture is non-descriptive of what "things." In fact it says "whatever" or "whatsoever" but does not identify what can actually be bound and loosed. Also, the binding and loosing go together it seems. Both actions are mentioned together.

So,.... does Jesus have examples of this or does He teach on this in other sections of scripture?

Whelp,.... I think so. The gospel accounts have a teaching on binding and loosing from Jesus, let's take a look at the first account where this is mentioned,...

Mat 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the dumb man spake and saw.

A possessed man was healed of his demonic possession by Jesus. Healed in this case would mean that the person was released from the possession and his faculties were able to operate again. The type of healing involved would be considered a Spiritual healing since it was the removal of evil spirits by the gifts of healings ministry Jesus demonstrated.

Mat 12:23 And all the multitudes were amazed, and said, Is this the son of David?
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This man doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.


Uh oh, can't have that. The people can't be considering Jesus the prophesied one to come. We must put a stop to this! The religious leaders of the day had to denounce the actions from Jesus somehow, so they attributed those actions to satan.

Then Jesus schools them for their ignorance,...

Mat 12:25 And knowing their thoughts he said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 and if Satan casteth out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.


Then Jesus gets to the meat of the subject,...

Mat 12:28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
Mat 12:29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.


So,...
- the mention of the deliverance is tied to the kingdom of GOD, ie it's affiliated to the keys to the kingdom.
- the description of the deliverance, the binding of the evil stronghold in the man and the loosing of the individual from that stronghold, is mentioned together next.

This account is mentioned in the other gospels with similar wording.

Will I be able to find any other teaching example in scripture even remotely close to Matthew 16:19 than this one? Absolutely not. There's no other use of binding and loosing mentioned together in any other section of scripture than this from Jesus.

So there you have it. Case closed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
With what we demonstrated, can we make Chapter 16 even better? Let's try,...

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound by heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed by heaven.

Let's look at the definition of that word,...

Original: ὅς ἥ ὅ
- Transliteration: Hos
- Phonetic: hos
- Definition:
1. who, which, what, that Wigram's count is 1309 not 1393.
- Origin: probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588)
- TDNT entry: None
- Part(s) of speech:

- Strong's: Probably a primary word (or perhaps a form of the article G3588); the relative (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun who which what that: - one (an- the) other some that what which who (-m -se) etc. See also G3757.

So that word could be translated "who" instead of what. Would it help define the passage better with what Jesus taught, I believe so, let's try,..

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound by heaven: and whosoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed by heaven.

I like it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Who are these scriptures for?

Who are they written to?

Were they written just for Peter or one of the other apostles? Some people would like to say that.

Let's see what Jesus says,...

Joh 14:12 Truly, truly, I say unto you the one believing in Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, because I am going to My Father.

How about another section,....

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


These scriptures were written for us, to have the works of Jesus happening through us. Don't let anyone try to fool you.
 
Upvote 0

Joy

Well-Known Member
May 21, 2004
44,847
3,358
B'ham
✟1,403,923.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Mod Hat On

Some Posts and Responses
have been Removed
in
Thread Clean

RV
: Statement of Purpose - REVISED:Spirit-Filled/Charismatic Community Statement of Purpose

full


Use this tag for any thread where you just want to share chit chat or discuss a topic with other like-minded members. There should be No debate at all, it is strictly fellowship in nature. The OP of these threads can report their own thread if it crosses the line into debate and staff will assist in a thread clean up (please see above for a definition of debate).

If something is posted which you do not agree with, please make one post only and state, "I do not agree with the topic or viewpoints shared in this thread. I have opened a separate thread to discuss my point of view. The thread is located here." There should be no further points made. The members who are participating in the fellowship thread should not respond to the post because the opposing member is not allowed to reply again in the thread. If anyone thinks a rule is being violated in the fellowship thread they should report it. They should not state that they think the rules are being violated when they make their one post.

Mod Hat Off
 
  • Like
Reactions: ARBITER01
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
43,649
13,930
Broken Arrow, OK
✟689,334.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Now why is this important? Why did Jesus teach about this?

Because this was "how" He cast demonic spirits out of people. He didn't just say "be gone" or something in the scriptures, he used the binding and loosing method. We see that in this section,...

Luk 13:10 And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath day.
Luk 13:11 And behold, a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years; and she was bowed together, and could in no wise lift herself up.
Luk 13:12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her, and said to her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Luk 13:13 And he laid his hands upon her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.


Normally we think that the mention of the binding and loosing is suppose to be utilized together, but here obviously we see the loosing portion of His teaching can stand on it's own.

Once the evil spirit was cast out Jesus then laid His hands upon her and healed her body, but the spirit had to be cast out first. As far as I know, there isn't a section of scripture where Jesus laid hands upon a person to cast out an evil spirit, He commanded it out first, and this binding and loosing method was what was used as the command.

We can partly see the binding portion of this with the Demoniac in Luke's account,..

Luk 8:26 And they arrived at the country of the Gerasenes, which is over against Galilee.
Luk 8:27 And when he was come forth upon the land, there met him a certain man out of the city, who had devils; and for a long time he had worn no clothes, and abode not in any house, but in the tombs.
Luk 8:28 And when he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the Most High God? I beseech thee, torment me not.
Luk 8:29 For he commanded the unclean spirit to come out from the man. For oftentimes it had seized him: and he was kept under guard, and bound with chains and fetters; and breaking the bands asunder, he was driven of the devil into the deserts.


Ok,.... what did Jesus say when He commanded the strong man out? You gotta remember, the text says that He had devil(S), plural, and here the text then says that Jesus commanded the unclean spirit out, singular. He went after the ruler or strong man of the rest inside of this person. Let's read more,....

Luk 8:30 And Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And he said, Legion; for many devils were entered into him.

Here is Mark's account of it, notice how slightly different it is,...

Mar 5:9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he saith unto him, My name is Legion; for we are many.

The amount of the evil spirits inside of this person was now considered an actual strong man, and it's name was legion, as so boldly stated by them.

Now notice the next section of Luke,...

Luk 8:31 And they entreated him that he would not command them to depart into the abyss.

Luke's account is the only one with this tidbit of important information. We see here that Jesus did have the ability to command them down into the pit, and they were trying to keep that from happening, eventually negotiating with Jesus to command them into the swine, which they suicided to be free to roam for another body to inhabit. They were coming out one way or another by Jesus, they just didn't want to be removed from up here into their torment down below.

We gotta remember, Jesus did everything down here as a man to provide us a perfect example to follow Him with. So how would we command something like this to happen? What would we say? I submit that the binding portion of Jesus's teaching would be used. They were going to be bound from one area to another, and it obviously was not good for them.

This is about as descriptive as you're going to get on this subject in scripture. There just isn't anything more beyond "He commanded them out" or something, and they were healed with that removal. I guess a person could try to just state that they to were to be removed to the pit and see if there was any results afterwards, but if Jesus used the loosing portion of His teaching before with documented results,... would not The Holy Spirit provide a scripture section on the binding portion of this teaching also? I submit this was an example of that where He did.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
13,348
1,695
✟161,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Is binding and loosing just for evil spirits?

No it's not.

Let's take a look,...

Mat 16:19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound by heaven: and whosoever thou shalt loose upon earth shall be loosed by heaven.

The scripture portion I highlighted is not talking about a person. This can be a multitude of things affecting a person, not just evil spirits.

For example, some people was giving my friend free drugs and trying to hook her on them. Once I seen this happening, I just bound any drug addition that was within her and loosed her from it. She was instantly freed from her addition to it. And when I say she was freed from it, that's exactly what I mean, she did not need it anymore. This was crystal meth, a highly addictive drug. I did have to watch out for withdraws initially, but I would bind them and loose her from them also with the same results.

In one days time she was freed from any addition to drugs she might of had, all because I utilized the biblical principles in scripture with results.

There is a multitude of things that this can be utilized to help folks with, all one has to have is a little faith in applying it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0