The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court

JohnAshton

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2019
2,197
1,580
88
Logan, Utah
✟45,911.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
. . . Yet, when an accusation without evidence can be presented that can sink your life, people will still find ways to avoid that.
Some jobs, such as being a police officer on patrol, etc., will cause difficulty for a Graham Rule follower.

Most jobs, if the follower uses common sense, can be easily manipulated so that s/he will never have to explain why the door is open or the two are in the middle of the gym or in a corner of the breakroom talking quietly. Being 'visible' is the key.

The unwoke who don't get it need to be schooled gently into rethinking this issue.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: tall73
Upvote 0

dqhall

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 21, 2015
7,547
4,171
Florida
Visit site
✟766,603.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Some jobs, such as being a police officer on patrol, etc., will cause difficulty for a Graham Rule follower.

Most jobs, if the follower uses common sense, can be easily manipulated so that s/he will never have to explain why the door is open or the two are in the middle of the gym or in a corner of the breakroom talking quietly. Being 'visible' is the key.

The unwoke who don't get it need to be schooled gently into rethinking this issue.
If you believe in Christ, you should have no lust. In the Gospel of John Jesus met a Samaritan women who was going to draw water from a well. His disciples had gone into town to buy food. When they returned, they did not ask what the two were doing together.

I have worked numerous jobs with
The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court

Aformer North Carolina sheriff’s deputy may be the first to file a lawsuit alleging he faced discrimination for his commitment to the “Billy Graham Rule.”

Manuel Torres, 51, claims in a federal lawsuit that he requested a “religious accommodation” from the Lee County, North Carolina, Sheriff’s Office, where he was employed from 2012 to 2017, after he was ordered to train a female deputy. The training included “the requirement that he spend significant periods of time alone in his patrol car with the female officer trainee.”

A deacon at East Sanford Baptist Church in Sanford, North Carolina, Torres “holds the strong and sincere religious belief that the Holy Bible prohibits him, a married man, from being alone for extended periods of time with a female who is not his wife,” according to the lawsuit filed July 31 in US district court.

The practice of not being alone with a member of the opposite sex other than one’s spouse is called the Billy Graham Rulein honor of the late evangelist, who adopted the policy early in his ministry to avoid temptation and accusations of sexual immorality. While some say the practice demonstrates integrity and protects marriages, others claim it can be discriminatory.

According to Torres’s lawsuit, the Lee County Sheriff’s Office allegedly vacillated between granting and denying the requested accommodation for weeks before terminating Torres “without an explanation.” Torres also claims a colleague “failed to respond” to his call for backup at a “multi-vehicle accident in an unsafe area” because of the requested accommodation.

Howard Friedman, a University of Toledo law professor who blogs about religious liberty at Religion Clause, said he is unaware of any other court cases involving the Billy Graham Rule but noted Torres’s lawsuit “is part of the growing number of cases in which religious freedom clashes with non-discrimination norms.”

More at link: The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court
If you believe in Christ, you should have no lust. In the Gospel of John Jesus met a Samaritan women who was going to draw water from a well. His disciples had gone into town to buy food. When they returned, they did not ask what the two were doing together.

I have worked numerous jobs with men and women in the same work place. I kept in mind a no physical contact rule. I avoided fornication this way.
 
Upvote 0

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,074
5,940
Nashville TN
✟631,633.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Christ has no trouble I believe with the Franklin Covenant.
That may or may not be true, that would be your opinion of an individual's personal beliefs.
It is not something Christ in the Bible either followed or commanded.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

smithed64

To Die is gain, To Live is Christ
Supporter
Feb 2, 2013
808
279
Chattanooga, Tennessee
✟41,497.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
The issue isn't whether he was wrong for not wanting to be with woman by himself. Nor is it about him not wanting to train women.

He was obeying the scriptures. Roman 14 points it out quite clearly.

The question is should we judge him for doing what he thinks is right for himself and his salvation.
We are wrong to do so, not our place to do so. What we should be doing as children of God is go to the Scriptures and obey.

Keeping it simple, Romans 14 discusses how we should conduct ourselves in the world. And how our brothers and sisters live for the Lord is between them and God. Not them and us. Some of us wouldn't have had a problem working or training a woman, knowing that there would be no inappropriate behavior between yourself and the other. Some of us, just can't do it, because it put's them in a place where temptation is too great and could lead to problems and trouble.
It's like you wouldn't put a drug addict in a pharmacy and expect him or her not to be tempted.
Nor would you put a Converted child molester in charge of children. And yes, they can be saved just as anyone else can. God never tempts us, but he lets' us to be tempted. But he also doesn't let temptation get so heavy on us that we do fail. He always makes a way out. And one of those ways, is just plain ol common sense.
Only you know what tempts you. You and God know your weakness. And there is NO ONE here that can say that there is absolutely nothing that tempts you..that would be a lie...cause if your human, have desires, yet Give your all to God. Temptation is always around the corner.

Romans 14:12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

On that day. It will be you and Christ, if you are born again, standing before the father for judgement. That's it. You as the officer spoke of and myself will stand and give an account of ourselves to God.

So, if you are concerned about this officer, then pray for Him and ask God to Help him. He lost his job, he has a family, he has bills, he has children ( i guess) he still has to take care of his family. He lost his job because he lived by the Word of God, kept his principles and knew his weakness. And did the right thing.

Sometimes, we upset people when we make a decision based upon how God would judge us on. It's not done on purpose or being hateful. It's just you obeying your convictions that the Holy Spirit put's there in you.

24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the repay every man according to his deeds.

It wasn't political, nor was it sexist. Unless you make it so.

Remember, you also, will be judged.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: Hazelelponi
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,122
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,854.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court

Aformer North Carolina sheriff’s deputy may be the first to file a lawsuit alleging he faced discrimination for his commitment to the “Billy Graham Rule.”

Manuel Torres, 51, claims in a federal lawsuit that he requested a “religious accommodation” from the Lee County, North Carolina, Sheriff’s Office, where he was employed from 2012 to 2017, after he was ordered to train a female deputy. The training included “the requirement that he spend significant periods of time alone in his patrol car with the female officer trainee.”

A deacon at East Sanford Baptist Church in Sanford, North Carolina, Torres “holds the strong and sincere religious belief that the Holy Bible prohibits him, a married man, from being alone for extended periods of time with a female who is not his wife,” according to the lawsuit filed July 31 in US district court.

The practice of not being alone with a member of the opposite sex other than one’s spouse is called the Billy Graham Rulein honor of the late evangelist, who adopted the policy early in his ministry to avoid temptation and accusations of sexual immorality. While some say the practice demonstrates integrity and protects marriages, others claim it can be discriminatory.

According to Torres’s lawsuit, the Lee County Sheriff’s Office allegedly vacillated between granting and denying the requested accommodation for weeks before terminating Torres “without an explanation.” Torres also claims a colleague “failed to respond” to his call for backup at a “multi-vehicle accident in an unsafe area” because of the requested accommodation.

Howard Friedman, a University of Toledo law professor who blogs about religious liberty at Religion Clause, said he is unaware of any other court cases involving the Billy Graham Rule but noted Torres’s lawsuit “is part of the growing number of cases in which religious freedom clashes with non-discrimination norms.”

More at link: The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court

ok. Place a police chaperone in the back seat of the car................case solved. :ahah:
 
  • Winner
Reactions: FenderTL5
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,648
6,107
Massachusetts
✟583,317.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Torres also claims a colleague “failed to respond” to his call for backup at a “multi-vehicle accident in an unsafe area” because of the requested accommodation.
This can be what an immoral officer could do, out of spite. There can be morality problems, among officers . . . without their being with women during duty. I knew an officer who openly bragged about his women. But I am sure there are honorable officers; but if one decides to make an open show of staying clear of extended time with one woman, this can get the goat of officers who despise morality. And things could get spiteful. So, what was behind, really, the management's firing of the guy? Was it really about discrimination against women, or out of spite against a person wanting to make sure he is moral? Was the officer putting on a show, while he is secretly not moral? This can happen, too. I don't know, therefore, what is really going on.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect employers to ensure their employees are never alone with a person of the opposite sex.
But, Paidiske . . . this is not about being alone only for a moment. They could be with each other for hours, day and night . . . depending on if night duty is included. And as officers I would think it is reasonable to expect they will get to know each other, and get very close to each other . . . even more than a pastor in counseling alone with a woman can be. And it is well reported how men in counseling with women have gotten into affairs, including right in the office! Officers in a cruiser is a possibility, too. Daytime, too > people can be clever.

Jesus was alone with the woman at the well in John 4.
But, of course, we are not Jesus. But it is clear to me that the disciples were indeed accusing Jesus, when they came back and asked what He was doing with her!! And He did not worry about how they might judge by appearances.

My opinion is the "appearance of evil" is when evil is making an appearance . . . not only when false accusers say what you do looks bad. But it is wise to watch our reputation. There are both men and women who I will not arrange to spend time with, alone. But, in passing, at any time, I will stop to talk with them. But this is not for an extended time. This is partly for their own good, so they don't have time to get going with evil stuff in themselves about me.

But to just go over another person's house or to see them hanging around the park that is not really a part of their job and they appear to be friendly with each other is not correct.
There are people who clear things with their spouses, and then spend time with someone. I see how this could happen if two officers got in a good relationship; their good relationship, though, would likely include sharing with their spouses. And possibly they have been together enough, already, so they know they have control and love one another strongly enough so they know they would not betray anyone. You can't love and betray, at the same time, I would say. So, there can become a strong relating so you are safe, in love.

It strikes me that the Billy Graham rule can only really work for highly privileged people who can structure their working situations as they please; (and even then I'm not convinced it's a good thing).
aristocratic morality > high-end > display of faithfulness if you can afford it

Now that I have gotten to know a number of women . . . ones I have found very attractive . . . I'm not so attracted to them, now that I know more than what they look like. So . . . I can see . . . if two officers actually get to know each other, this might help them keep control of themselves. Plus, they can get to care about each other's families, so they love each other and therefore are satisfied not to betray each other's spouses and children. But if they have only been getting glances of each other, here and there during duty, they might more easily go with imagination.

I would think it could be good for the man to talk with the lady, and feel each other out. Without discrimination being involved, they might find they would not be right for training with each other . . . anyway. I would think admin people would evaluate which officers are right to be partners.
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This seems to be a personal matter being linked to religion to forego the consequences of unwise actions.

If you cant refrain from cheating or doing anything inappropriate with a woman solely because you are alone with them, this is a personal issue which may require attention and outside help.

This cannot be related to anything biblical....this is based on ones own personal thoughts about themselves and the temptations they feel they are able to bear.

If you cant do the job.....you must get help or find a job that is more suited to your abilities.

We must be careful that we do not support these kinds of behaviors, lest we go back to the ability to excused women from being considered for male predominated jobs.....under the support of god and the church.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: bèlla
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JohnAshton

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2019
2,197
1,580
88
Logan, Utah
✟45,911.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
As long as the "excusal" is done in a manner that does not injure a person's job progression, no problem exists.

Women and their thinking must not be the sole determination of what is appropriate or not in workplace situations.

This is a two-way street.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: brinny
Upvote 0

usexpat97

kewlness
Aug 1, 2012
3,308
1,618
Ecuador
✟76,839.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
If you cant refrain from cheating or doing anything inappropriate with a woman solely because you are alone with them, this is a personal issue which may require attention and outside help.

You certainly can't refrain from being accused of it, or of other people thinking differently from what's really happening. If other people's accusations are now supposed to be your responsibility, then the only choice is to abide by Billy Graham rule. I'm not surprised that this being being spun around as this hyper-puritan, prude thing. But it's not--it's a function of people who like to get their power kick out of making false accusations. It is they who need to be removed from the picture.
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
248,783
114,476
✟1,339,553.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
This can be what an immoral officer could do, out of spite. There can be morality problems, among officers . . . without their being with women during duty. I knew an officer who openly bragged about his women. But I am sure there are honorable officers; but if one decides to make an open show of staying clear of extended time with one woman, this can get the goat of officers who despise morality. And things could get spiteful. So, what was behind, really, the management's firing of the guy? Was it really about discrimination against women, or out of spite against a person wanting to make sure he is moral? Was the officer putting on a show, while he is secretly not moral? This can happen, too. I don't know, therefore, what is really going on.

But, Paidiske . . . this is not about being alone only for a moment. They could be with each other for hours, day and night . . . depending on if night duty is included. And as officers I would think it is reasonable to expect they will get to know each other, and get very close to each other . . . even more than a pastor in counseling alone with a woman can be. And it is well reported how men in counseling with women have gotten into affairs, including right in the office! Officers in a cruiser is a possibility, too. Daytime, too > people can be clever.

But, of course, we are not Jesus. But it is clear to me that the disciples were indeed accusing Jesus, when they came back and asked what He was doing with her!! And He did not worry about how they might judge by appearances.

My opinion is the "appearance of evil" is when evil is making an appearance . . . not only when false accusers say what you do looks bad. But it is wise to watch our reputation. There are both men and women who I will not arrange to spend time with, alone. But, in passing, at any time, I will stop to talk with them. But this is not for an extended time. This is partly for their own good, so they don't have time to get going with evil stuff in themselves about me.

There are people who clear things with their spouses, and then spend time with someone. I see how this could happen if two officers got in a good relationship; their good relationship, though, would likely include sharing with their spouses. And possibly they have been together enough, already, so they know they have control and love one another strongly enough so they know they would not betray anyone. You can't love and betray, at the same time, I would say. So, there can become a strong relating so you are safe, in love.

aristocratic morality > high-end > display of faithfulness if you can afford it

Now that I have gotten to know a number of women . . . ones I have found very attractive . . . I'm not so attracted to them, now that I know more than what they look like. So . . . I can see . . . if two officers actually get to know each other, this might help them keep control of themselves. Plus, they can get to care about each other's families, so they love each other and therefore are satisfied not to betray each other's spouses and children. But if they have only been getting glances of each other, here and there during duty, they might more easily go with imagination.

I would think it could be good for the man to talk with the lady, and feel each other out. Without discrimination being involved, they might find they would not be right for training with each other . . . anyway. I would think admin people would evaluate which officers are right to be partners.
feel each other out.
"Feel each other out?"
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You certainly can't refrain from being accused of it, or of other people thinking differently from what's really happening. If other people's accusations are now supposed to be your responsibility, then the only choice is to abide by Billy Graham rule. I'm not surprised that this being being spun around as this hyper-puritan, prude thing. But it's not--it's a function of people who like to get their power kick out of making false accusations. It is they who need to be removed from the picture.
Is the main purpose of the Graham rule to avoid temptation, or to avoid false accusation and appearances of evil?
 
Upvote 0

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
248,783
114,476
✟1,339,553.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Is the main purpose of the Graham rule to avoid temptation, or to avoid false accusation and appearances of evil?

The latter.

As it is written:

"A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold." ~Pr 22:1

It is a wise guideline for not just men, but for his family now or any family in the future.

In addition:

"A prudent person foresees danger and takes precautions. " ~Pr 22:3
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FenderTL5

Κύριε, ἐλέησον.
Supporter
Jun 13, 2016
5,074
5,940
Nashville TN
✟631,633.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
This seems to be a personal matter being linked to religion to forego the consequences of unwise actions.

If you cant refrain from cheating or doing anything inappropriate with a woman solely because you are alone with them, this is a personal issue which may require attention and outside help.

This cannot be related to anything biblical....this is based on ones own personal thoughts about themselves and the temptations they feel they are able to bear.

If you cant do the job.....you must get help or find a job that is more suited to your abilities.

We must be careful that we do not support these kinds of behaviors, lest we go back to the ability to excused women from being considered for male predominated jobs.....under the support of god and the church.
Agree.
This is an officer who has confessed to his employer that he can't be trusted to be alone with women.
The EEOC gives employers some leeway/exception in the religious accommodation rules.
 
Upvote 0

JohnAshton

Well-Known Member
Aug 13, 2019
2,197
1,580
88
Logan, Utah
✟45,911.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Purposes: avoid false accusations, avoid appearance of evil, and avoid temptation.

Simply do not explain it terms of the Franklin Covenant, explain it as a professional business tool.

And if the individual realizes s/he has issues with the other sex, consider appropriate occupations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mreeed
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The latter.
Actually, most definitions I've read seem to list all three equally without giving weight to one over the other.

But what about the appearance of discrimination?

And wasnt this a rule meant for church Leaders?
 
Upvote 0

bèlla

❤️
Supporter
Jan 16, 2019
20,479
17,633
USA
✟933,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
In Relationship
This seems to be a personal matter being linked to religion to forego the consequences of unwise actions.

I concur. I wouldn’t contort my business operations to accommodate it. He needs to find a line of work that complements his convictions.

If you cant refrain from cheating or doing anything inappropriate with a woman solely because you are alone with them, this is a personal issue which may require attention and outside help.

I agree. I worked in a male-dominated industry and was never subject to sexual harassment or mistreatment. I respected my colleagues, wasn’t playing the feminist card or attempting to be a quasi-man. I didn’t downplay my femininity or use it as a weapon to advance. I did my job.

No employer should be expected to protect you against lusts of the flesh or strongholds. That is the domain of a spiritual advisor. Your inability to exercise self-control is a personal problem. It shouldn’t be borne by others.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

brinny

everlovin' shiner of light in dark places
Supporter
Mar 23, 2004
248,783
114,476
✟1,339,553.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Actually, most definitions I've read seem to list all three equally without giving weight to one over the other.

But what about the appearance of discrimination?

And wasnt this a rule meant for church Leaders?

I'm not a Mike Pence fan, but he is also wise to abide by this principle.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JohnAshton
Upvote 0