The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court

[FenderTL5]

Fallacy of false equivalency: you/me and Jesus

Unless the goal is to be like Christ.

 

[Paidiske]

Time to use the Graham Rule without telling people you are using the Graham Rule.

In most normal workplaces, how do you even do that?

Every job I've ever had - working a cash register, office jobs, church jobs - there'd be times when I'd have been alone with a male (customer, colleague, whatever). Are we really all going to say to our bosses, "Sorry, I'm not going to do [insert totally normal workplace activity here] because reasons"? And expect our bosses to accept that?

It strikes me that the Billy Graham rule can only really work for highly privileged people who can structure their working situations as they please; (and even then I'm not convinced it's a good thing).

 

[Hazelelponi]

Indeed, we are not Jesus. But your statement was that God would approve. So it is worthwhile to look up examples in the Scripture. Another would be Elijah. He lived with a widow "many days" at God's command. That would seem to leave open the possibility of bad optics.

I Kings 17:8 Then the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 9 “Arise, go to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and dwell there. See, I have commanded a widow there to provide for you.” 10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, indeed a widow was there gathering sticks. And he called to her and said, “Please bring me a little water in a cup, that I may drink.” 11 And as she was going to get it, he called to her and said, “Please bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.”


12 So she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I do not have bread, only a handful of flour in a bin, and a little oil in a a]">[a]jar; and see, I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it, and die.”


13 And Elijah said to her, “Do not fear; go and do as you have said, but make me a small cake from it first, and bring it to me; and afterward make some for yourself and your son. 14 For thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘The bin of flour shall not be used up, nor shall the jar of oil run dry, until the day the Lord sends rain on the earth.’ ”


15 So she went away and did according to the word of Elijah; and she and he and her household ate for many days. 16 The bin of flour was not used up, nor did the jar of oil run dry, according to the word of the Lord which He spoke by Elijah.


As I said, I usually follow the rule myself, and think it is helpful for avoiding the appearance of evil, the possibility of false accusations, temptation, etc. However, there is a difference between me thinking something might be wise, and extending it to a religious principle.

The scriptures don't say that Elijah slept under the same roof.. he saw her at the city gate and told her to bring him back a cake.

The Lord told him to go to a town and the widow would "provide" for him (feed him) but I don't see anything to indicate he slept in the same house as her. Just that he stayed in the town and she provided his food.

The same for Jesus with the woman at the well. Jesus spoke with her, at a public well in the center of town.

There's nothing in the Bible to indicate God made it a habit of putting men and women in awkward situations...

If women today are going to speak of sexual harassment at every turn, this IS the only solution for men - to follow religious precepts and make certain there is no occasion where he gives even the appearance of impropriety..

 

[JohnAshton]

Indeed, we are not Jesus. But your statement was that God would approve. So it is worthwhile to look up examples in the Scripture. Another would be Elijah. He lived with a widow "many days" at God's command. That would seem to leave open the possibility of bad optics.

I Kings 17:8 Then the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 9 “Arise, go to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and dwell there. See, I have commanded a widow there to provide for you.” 10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, indeed a widow was there gathering sticks. And he called to her and said, “Please bring me a little water in a cup, that I may drink.” 11 And as she was going to get it, he called to her and said, “Please bring me a morsel of bread in your hand.”


12 So she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I do not have bread, only a handful of flour in a bin, and a little oil in a a]">[a]jar; and see, I am gathering a couple of sticks that I may go in and prepare it for myself and my son, that we may eat it, and die.”


13 And Elijah said to her, “Do not fear; go and do as you have said, but make me a small cake from it first, and bring it to me; and afterward make some for yourself and your son. 14 For thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘The bin of flour shall not be used up, nor shall the jar of oil run dry, until the day the Lord sends rain on the earth.’ ”


15 So she went away and did according to the word of Elijah; and she and he and her household ate for many days. 16 The bin of flour was not used up, nor did the jar of oil run dry, according to the word of the Lord which He spoke by Elijah.


As I said, I usually follow the rule myself, and think it is helpful for avoiding the appearance of evil, the possibility of false accusations, temptation, etc. However, there is a difference between me thinking something might be wise, and extending it to a religious principle.

That's fine that you think that for you.

 

[JohnAshton]

In most normal workplaces, how do you even do that?

Every job I've ever had - working a cash register, office jobs, church jobs - there'd be times when I'd have been alone with a male (customer, colleague, whatever). Are we really all going to say to our bosses, "Sorry, I'm not going to do [insert totally normal workplace activity here] because reasons"? And expect our bosses to accept that?

It strikes me that the Billy Graham rule can only really work for highly privileged people who can structure their working situations as they please; (and even then I'm not convinced it's a good thing).

Not necessarily, at all.

Hazelponi has the right of it.

If you are in the manager's office, leave the door open, whether at work or church or wherever.

 

[Rubiks]

Bosses shouldn't have to accommodate silly religious convictions without any scriptural (being the Bible, Quran, etc.) basis.

 

[bèlla]

I sincerely doubt most men are employing this in the workplace and don’t believe the majority seek accommodation from their employers. At best, they’re modifying the principle for the setting. I don’t think the majority would risk their family’s welfare.

 

[tall73]

The scriptures don't say that Elijah slept under the same roof.. he saw her at the city gate and told her to bring him back a cake.

19 And he said to her, “Give me your son.” So he took him out of her arms and carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his own bed. 20 Then he cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?”

 

[AlexDTX]

The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court

Aformer North Carolina sheriff’s deputy may be the first to file a lawsuit alleging he faced discrimination for his commitment to the “Billy Graham Rule.”

Manuel Torres, 51, claims in a federal lawsuit that he requested a “religious accommodation” from the Lee County, North Carolina, Sheriff’s Office, where he was employed from 2012 to 2017, after he was ordered to train a female deputy. The training included “the requirement that he spend significant periods of time alone in his patrol car with the female officer trainee.”

A deacon at East Sanford Baptist Church in Sanford, North Carolina, Torres “holds the strong and sincere religious belief that the Holy Bible prohibits him, a married man, from being alone for extended periods of time with a female who is not his wife,” according to the lawsuit filed July 31 in US district court.

The practice of not being alone with a member of the opposite sex other than one’s spouse is called the Billy Graham Rulein honor of the late evangelist, who adopted the policy early in his ministry to avoid temptation and accusations of sexual immorality. While some say the practice demonstrates integrity and protects marriages, others claim it can be discriminatory.

According to Torres’s lawsuit, the Lee County Sheriff’s Office allegedly vacillated between granting and denying the requested accommodation for weeks before terminating Torres “without an explanation.” Torres also claims a colleague “failed to respond” to his call for backup at a “multi-vehicle accident in an unsafe area” because of the requested accommodation.

Howard Friedman, a University of Toledo law professor who blogs about religious liberty at Religion Clause, said he is unaware of any other court cases involving the Billy Graham Rule but noted Torres’s lawsuit “is part of the growing number of cases in which religious freedom clashes with non-discrimination norms.”

More at link: The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court

Sadly, according to Cathy O'Brien, who was an MK Ultra sex slave (book well documented, Trance-Formation) Graham did not follow his own rule and fornicated with her when she was a presidential prostitute.

 

[Hazelelponi]

19 And he said to her, “Give me your son.” So he took him out of her arms and carried him to the upper room where he was staying, and laid him on his own bed. 20 Then he cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, have You also brought tragedy on the widow with whom I lodge, by killing her son?”

Okay so I was wrong on that point, but do you think this is a rule of propriety or an exception?

I don't think God intended this to mean that it's okay for unrelated men and women to room together as a matter of course.. or that the appearance of impropriety is a positive thing..

 

[tall73]

The same for Jesus with the woman at the well. Jesus spoke with her, at a public well in the center of town.

John 4:7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.

If women today are going to speak of sexual harassment at every turn, this IS the only solution for men - to follow religious precepts and make certain there is no occasion where he gives even the appearance of impropriety..

I don't disagree that there is a need to work around current problems. I think you followed the thread where I discussed this at great length regarding the politician in Mississippi.

However, my point is that we need to distinguish between wise practice and saying it is a religious rule.

 

[tall73]

Okay so I was wrong on that point, but do you think this is a rule of propriety or an exception?

I don't think God intended this to mean that it's okay for unrelated men and women to room together as a matter of course.. or that the appearance of impropriety is a positive thing..

I think the rule is to avoid evil appearances. The Billy Graham rule is a specific application. And most times it is a helpful one, but you must adjust to various situations. And sometimes even ministry demands you follow what God tells you to do, even if it goes against your usual good practice.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I don't disagree that there is a need to work around current problems. I think you followed the thread where I discussed this at great length regarding the politician in Mississippi.

However, my point is that we need to distinguish between wise practice and saying it is a religious rule.

Our religion indicates that appearances matter.. says so very clearly in the New Testament which are the very words of God.

I think when someone feels convicted that hours a day alone is against their religious practices that it can be said to be against our faith.

 

[Strong in Him]

The Billy Graham Rule Goes to Court

Aformer North Carolina sheriff’s deputy may be the first to file a lawsuit alleging he faced discrimination for his commitment to the “Billy Graham Rule.”

Manuel Torres, 51, claims in a federal lawsuit that he requested a “religious accommodation” from the Lee County, North Carolina, Sheriff’s Office, where he was employed from 2012 to 2017, after he was ordered to train a female deputy. The training included “the requirement that he spend significant periods of time alone in his patrol car with the female officer trainee.”

A deacon at East Sanford Baptist Church in Sanford, North Carolina, Torres “holds the strong and sincere religious belief that the Holy Bible prohibits him, a married man, from being alone for extended periods of time with a female who is not his wife,” according to the lawsuit filed July 31 in US district court.

The practice of not being alone with a member of the opposite sex other than one’s spouse is called the Billy Graham Rulein honor of the late evangelist, who adopted the policy early in his ministry to avoid temptation and accusations of sexual immorality. While some say the practice demonstrates integrity and protects marriages, others claim it can be discriminatory.

I didn't know there was a Billy Graham rule.
While it sounds wise to avoid misunderstanding and allegations of misconduct, I doubt that Billy Graham's personal preferences would be enforceable in law. I don't recall any such rule in the Bible. As someone has already said, what about Jesus and the woman at the well - also Jesus and Mary Magdalene on Resurrection morning and Peter and Dorcas?

 

[mark kennedy]

I think prohibiting male and female officers from being alone at night is unrealistic to say the least. On the other hand someone with an occassional senaibility like this should be easily accomodated. It just seems like a lot of time sense and an odd sort of a law suit. I'll be interested to see how this turns out.

 

[tall73]

Our religion indicates that appearances matter.. says so very clearly in the New Testament which are the very words of God.

Agreed, I referenced it above. However, saying that appearances matter is not the same as saying to never be alone with a woman at all.

I think when someone feels convicted that hours a day alone is against their religious practices that it can be said to be against our faith.

Yes, he could, and did, say that it is against his religious convictions. And I would not want to do so either. So if accommodation could be made, then it should.

But that is different than saying there is a biblical rule to not be alone with a woman.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Agreed, I referenced it above. However, saying that appearances matter is not the same as saying to never be alone with a woman at all.




Yes, he could, and did, say that it is against his religious convictions. And I would not want to do so either. So if accommodation could be made, then it should.

But that is different than saying there is a biblical rule to not be alone with a woman.

I see it as a rule.. I see those words in the New Testament as a rule - not a suggestion, not a "if it's convenient".. but a rule.

 

[tall73]

In most normal workplaces, how do you even do that?

Every job I've ever had - working a cash register, office jobs, church jobs - there'd be times when I'd have been alone with a male (customer, colleague, whatever).

I have worked office jobs, church jobs, labor jobs, etc. and managed to do it without too much trouble. And I rarely found the need to even explain that was my intent.

Are we really all going to say to our bosses, "Sorry, I'm not going to do [insert totally normal workplace activity here] because reasons"? And expect our bosses to accept that?

Some of my bosses were quite on board with not having issues in the workplace, or putting people in uncomfortable positions.

It strikes me that the Billy Graham rule can only really work for highly privileged people who can structure their working situations as they please; (and even then I'm not convinced it's a good thing).

Yet, when an accusation without evidence can be presented that can sink your life, people will still find ways to avoid that.

 

[tall73]

I see it as a rule.. I see those words in the New Testament as a rule - not a suggestion, not a "if it's convenient".. but a rule.

But do not be alone with a woman is not said in the Bible.

I did not downplay what the Scriptures said. I quoted instances that go against the rule you are suggesting.

I also referenced that we should avoid the appearance of evil, which is in the Bible. But that apparently does not rule out ever being alone with a woman, or else Elijah and Jesus were violating that.

 

[JohnAshton]

Sadly, according to Cathy O'Brien, who was an MK Ultra sex slave (book well documented, Trance-Formation) Graham did not follow his own rule and fornicated with her when she was a presidential prostitute.

How sad she would tell lies like that. Cathy has no idea who Billy was or is.