The biggest issue with Arminianism

[Neostarwcc]

I never really stopped to investigate this before but there is one major problem with interpreting Arminianism from the Bible. That is the very fact that a completely sovereign, completely perfect God can fail in his promise to Abraham.

Let's ignore John 6:37-40 and other verses where God said not one of his elect will perish. Let's ignore the fact that if a completely sovereign God died for the entire world that he could find ways to save every soul who ever lived. Let's even ignore God's plan to save. Let's just say it's true. God died for the whole world yet somehow fails in saving the whole world because men reject him.

Tell me, how can God fail? Not just in his promise to Abraham which cannot be disputed was made. But how can God fail the very people he apparently died for? I mean, God must be super bummed out right? Look at the world around you, look at history, look at all of the unGodliness in our world something that God is going to fix.

But, nope an all sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God cannot come up with a plan to save all that he wanted to save. He failed his mission because mankind chose death.

I mean, does anybody else find this as depressing as I do? Just this one theory that God can fail in keeping his promises because mankind chooses that for themselves.

Thank God that God says the exact opposite in scripture. That all he promised to Abraham will be saved. That he promised to the Prophets, that he promised to his apostles. A God that can do anything, can come up with a plan to save all he wants to. That plan has succeeded and we will see each other in Heaven.

 

[Sketcher]

God died for the whole world yet somehow fails in saving the whole world because men reject him.

Tell me, how can God fail? Not just in his promise to Abraham which cannot be disputed was made. But how can God fail the very people he apparently died for? I mean, God must be super bummed out right? Look at the world around you, look at history, look at all of the unGodliness in our world something that God is going to fix.

But, nope an all sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God cannot come up with a plan to save all that he wanted to save. He failed his mission because mankind chose death.

I mean, does anybody else find this as depressing as I do? Just this one theory that God can fail in keeping his promises because mankind chooses that for themselves.

Why are we presuming to know what constitutes "success" or "failure" in the eyes of God? Calvinism after all, teaches that God only chose to redeem the elect. Which therefore means, God elected those he would save, knowing full well that he would not save others, based on his sovereign choice that he was making. Therefore, the redemption of all of humanity wasn't one of God's goals, according to Calvinism. If it's not a goal, not attaining it isn't a failure. Why then, would we presume different motives by God when talking about Arminianism?

 

[BobRyan]

I never really stopped to investigate this before but there is one major problem with interpreting Arminianism from the Bible. That is the very fact that a completely sovereign, completely perfect God can fail in his promise to Abraham.

Only if you insert Calvinism into that Arminianism. In the Arminian model of free will - God gets to be true to His Word INCLUDING the conditional element of "curse" and "promise" that God explains in His Word in Jer 18.

Jer 18:
6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it.

9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it.

In Calvinism those are two examples of "God failing".

In the Arminian model it is God sovereignly enabling a system of free will and stating how the conditional element of both "promise" and "curse" work.

=================

I Genesis 6 we have this --
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. 6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 Then the Lord said, “I will wipe out mankind whom I have created from the face of the land; mankind, and animals as well, and crawling things, and the birds of the sky. For I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

In Calvinism - that is God "failing"

In Arminianism that is mankind failing

========================

Isaiah 5

2 He dug it all around, cleared it of stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it,
And also carved out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.

3 “And now, you inhabitants of Jerusalem and people of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.
6 I will lay it waste;
It will not be pruned nor hoed,
But briars and thorns will come up.
I will also command the clouds not to rain on it.”


=========================

In Calvinism that is God "failing".

In Arminianism that is mankind "failing"

 

[spiritfilledjm]

God died for the whole world yet somehow fails in saving the whole world because men reject him.

Tell me, how can God fail? Not just in his promise to Abraham which cannot be disputed was made. But how can God fail the very people he apparently died for? I mean, God must be super bummed out right? Look at the world around you, look at history, look at all of the unGodliness in our world something that God is going to fix.

But, nope an all sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God cannot come up with a plan to save all that he wanted to save. He failed his mission because mankind chose death.

I mean, does anybody else find this as depressing as I do? Just this one theory that God can fail in keeping his promises because mankind chooses that for themselves.

Thank God that God says the exact opposite in scripture. That all he promised to Abraham will be saved. That he promised to the Prophets, that he promised to his apostles. A God that can do anything, can come up with a plan to save all he wants to. That plan has succeeded and we will see each other in Heaven.

I'll answer this from an Arminian perspective even though I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian:

God does not fail, but man fails God. God doesn't want to save anyone who doesn't want to be saved, who thinks they don't need to be saved. Yes, He sent His Son to die for all that all might be saved, but they have to want to be saved in order to be saved.

 

[Rapture Bound]

Bob Ryan replied, "In Calvinism that is God "failing"..."In Arminianism that is mankind "failing" --- excellent analysis of the two perspectives on the subject. From all that I have seen, both Calvinism and Arminianism have many holes in their approach to the issue of God's election to salvation and predestination. Classical Molinism provides the most clarity to the issue, and is much more consistent with the scriptural data.

 

[Petros2015]

Classical Molinism

I'd never seen or heard of this before

The Molinist believes that God, using his middle knowledge and foreknowledge, surveyed all possible worlds and then actualized a particular one. God's middle knowledge of counterfactuals would play an integral part in this "choosing" of a particular world.

Molinism - Wikipedia

Interesting.

Many-worlds interpretation - Wikipedia

 

[fhansen]

I never really stopped to investigate this before but there is one major problem with interpreting Arminianism from the Bible. That is the very fact that a completely sovereign, completely perfect God can fail in his promise to Abraham.

Let's ignore John 6:37-40 and other verses where God said not one of his elect will perish. Let's ignore the fact that if a completely sovereign God died for the entire world that he could find ways to save every soul who ever lived. Let's even ignore God's plan to save. Let's just say it's true. God died for the whole world yet somehow fails in saving the whole world because men reject him.

Tell me, how can God fail? Not just in his promise to Abraham which cannot be disputed was made. But how can God fail the very people he apparently died for? I mean, God must be super bummed out right? Look at the world around you, look at history, look at all of the unGodliness in our world something that God is going to fix.

But, nope an all sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God cannot come up with a plan to save all that he wanted to save. He failed his mission because mankind chose death.

I mean, does anybody else find this as depressing as I do? Just this one theory that God can fail in keeping his promises because mankind chooses that for themselves.

Thank God that God says the exact opposite in scripture. That all he promised to Abraham will be saved. That he promised to the Prophets, that he promised to his apostles. A God that can do anything, can come up with a plan to save all he wants to. That plan has succeeded and we will see each other in Heaven.

The world is already filled with sin, with opposition to Gods will, with extremely ugly actions-chosen by His creation. Is that sin and the awful suffering it entails God’s desire for humankind?

 

[Rapture Bound]

Petros2015 replied concerning Molinism, "I'd never seen or heard of this before"

For an in-depth look at Molinism, see my thread here at this website entitled, " Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?"
Although my emphasis there was the application of the basic principles of Molinism as it relates to the issue of the eternal security of the believer, much is explained in the area of predestination and election to salvation, especially in some of the earlier posts. < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

post#26 on page 2 most specifically addresses the topic.... God Bless.

 

[renniks]

God decided to save those who sincerely repent. He does so. I don't see where the idea of God failing is coming from unless you think God decided to save all regardless of what they do.

 

[The Liturgist]

So, firstly, you cannot prove Calvinism or non-Calvinism* from Scripture, although it is possible to refute Once Saved, Always Saved.

Now, what convinced me to reject Calvinism from an anthropic perspective was a lecture by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware in which he explained that the one and only thing God cannot do is force us to love him, because you cannot force someone to voluntarily do anything, even if the means of force are subtle and concealed from them, and love not given completely freely is not really love.

The only extent to which a small trace of Calvinism might remain in my theology is that because God is omniscient, this indicates that He does know who will choose to love him, and who won’t, but I believe the grace of the Holy Spirit is granted to all.

I also believe in the efficacy of prayers for the dead, as did CS Lewis, so it is not as though this idea is inimical to Protestantism. Indeed, the Book of Tobit, which is read in Mattins and Evensong in the Church of England, and which is canonical in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches and the Roman Catholic Church, provides strong scriptural support for it.

But even without Tobit, I believe the efficacy of prayer for the dead is indicated in sacred scripture. For example, in the phrase “Love is strong as death” (Song of Solomon 8:6 )

*which I think we should say instead of Arminianism, reserving the term Arminian for Arminius and the early Remonstrants, before their denomination got taken over by extreme modernists, liberals and Unitarians starting in the 19th century - it is now probably the most liberal denomination in the world

 

[zoidar]

I never really stopped to investigate this before but there is one major problem with interpreting Arminianism from the Bible. That is the very fact that a completely sovereign, completely perfect God can fail in his promise to Abraham.

Let's ignore John 6:37-40 and other verses where God said not one of his elect will perish. Let's ignore the fact that if a completely sovereign God died for the entire world that he could find ways to save every soul who ever lived. Let's even ignore God's plan to save. Let's just say it's true. God died for the whole world yet somehow fails in saving the whole world because men reject him.

Tell me, how can God fail? Not just in his promise to Abraham which cannot be disputed was made. But how can God fail the very people he apparently died for? I mean, God must be super bummed out right? Look at the world around you, look at history, look at all of the unGodliness in our world something that God is going to fix.

But, nope an all sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God cannot come up with a plan to save all that he wanted to save. He failed his mission because mankind chose death.

I mean, does anybody else find this as depressing as I do? Just this one theory that God can fail in keeping his promises because mankind chooses that for themselves.

Thank God that God says the exact opposite in scripture. That all he promised to Abraham will be saved. That he promised to the Prophets, that he promised to his apostles. A God that can do anything, can come up with a plan to save all he wants to. That plan has succeeded and we will see each other in Heaven.

Saul was elected for a purpose which he failed to accomplish. Then God appointed David to fullfill what Saul failed to do. Doesn't God have the right to take back what He has given if He wanted?

If Abraham had failed, I figure God would have chosen someone else, but of course, God knew he wouldn't fail.

Btw I'm not Arminian

*Edited*

 

[Job 33:6]

But, nope an all sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God cannot come up with a plan to save all that he wanted to save. He failed his mission because mankind chose death.

Would it make more sense if God chose death for mankind, thereby causing Himself to fail at His own plan?

 

[eleos1954]

I never really stopped to investigate this before but there is one major problem with interpreting Arminianism from the Bible. That is the very fact that a completely sovereign, completely perfect God can fail in his promise to Abraham.

Let's ignore John 6:37-40 and other verses where God said not one of his elect will perish. Let's ignore the fact that if a completely sovereign God died for the entire world that he could find ways to save every soul who ever lived. Let's even ignore God's plan to save. Let's just say it's true. God died for the whole world yet somehow fails in saving the whole world because men reject him.

Tell me, how can God fail? Not just in his promise to Abraham which cannot be disputed was made. But how can God fail the very people he apparently died for? I mean, God must be super bummed out right? Look at the world around you, look at history, look at all of the unGodliness in our world something that God is going to fix.

But, nope an all sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God cannot come up with a plan to save all that he wanted to save. He failed his mission because mankind chose death.

I mean, does anybody else find this as depressing as I do? Just this one theory that God can fail in keeping his promises because mankind chooses that for themselves.

Thank God that God says the exact opposite in scripture. That all he promised to Abraham will be saved. That he promised to the Prophets, that he promised to his apostles. A God that can do anything, can come up with a plan to save all he wants to. That plan has succeeded and we will see each other in Heaven.

The problem with Calvinism is that it dismisses the Love of God and God IS love .... Love requires choice and He created us that way ... in His image of Love to love.

Matthew 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Love is the core aspect of God’s character, His Person. God’s love is in no sense in conflict with His holiness, righteousness, justice, or even His wrath. All of God’s attributes are in perfect harmony. Everything God does is loving, just as everything He does is just and right. God is the perfect example of true love. Amazingly, God has given those who receive His Son Jesus as their personal Savior the ability to love as He does, through the power of the Holy Spirit (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1, 23-24).

 

[EmethAlethia]

A just God can only punish, or reward, real choices. If we have the real choice to accept or reject we can be rewarded or punished for it.

Look at all the different belief groups in the world, inside and out of Christianity. Do they have faith? Almost everyone does. Do they love truth. If you ask them, they will say, "Most definitely". Are their core beliefs true. Most will say that their core beliefs are unquestionable truths... kind of like what we get on all sides of the Calvinism issue as well. And what's more, all the groups that believe in a gospel believe the gospel is simple. They just believe "different" simple gospels.

How does this happen? It's God's design. The people Paul was writing to are compared to the lost who reject a love of the truth so as to be saved in verses 10-12. But they pass the test.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

This means that this is a truth for all time. "For this reason", i.e. because of the choice that they make...

But do they know what choice they are making? Do they have the ability to make a choice? Does God reward and punish choices? Let's look at Rom. 1:18-32

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress(You cannot suppress what you do not know exists. This is an act of will) the truth in unrighteousness, (The following describes how God seeks all men, even the lost who will never receive Him.) 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (God makes it so that no man has any excuse for not seeking Him and then leaves the choices to Him.)21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged(A choice, an act of will. A decision) the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 (Consequences for bad choices)Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged(Another choice. Another act of will.) the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason (God responds to mans choice and gives him consequences for them.) God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer(Another act of will. Another choice.), (And God's response.) God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death (Even while they are rejecting, suppressing and exchanging the truth of God for a lie, God makes sure that they retain the knowledge of their choices, and the full awareness of what those choices will result in.) , they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

If they cannot respond other than what they choose to respond with here, then God is unjust to judge them for it. i.e. spanking a 2 month old baby for dirtying a diaper is not just. Why? There is no real way for a baby to make any choice that will make a difference. The good news is, God is going to let everyone who falls short and is heading for hell to judge Him to see if they really did have these choices, if they really could have chosen to accept Him. If He really did give them absolutely everything needed to end up on the opposite side of an outcome of eternity in hell. If God is found to have lied, and they aren't real choices, God will fall short during this judgment.

Rom 3:3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? 4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED." 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) 6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

God didn't fail. Men choose. It's a real choice. Men choose hell. God is not unrighteous. Everything He says and does is justified. People have no excuse for making the wrong choices. NONE! Ergo, when God allows them to judge Him, no fault can be laid at God's feet. They have every opportunity. They choose to suppress, reject, and exchange it for a lie.

The religious, non-Christians also have a zeal in accordance with their beliefs about God. They can find everything in scripture to justify not accepting Jesus as their Lord, God and Savior using scripture. Everyone who uses scripture can justify their beliefs, their lives, their actions ... using it.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

We can go to scripture and end up believing anything at all under the sun. Everyone can justify any belief or belief set out there. Read that 2Th. 2:10-13 passage again. Even the many, the "Many" on the broad path that leads to destruction have everything they need to know that their beliefs are truth. "Lord, Lord, did we not ___ in Your Name, and in Your Name ..." "Depart from Me .... for I never knew you." Mat. 7 is about how those who believe they are Christians, probably 99.95 of them, end up knowing their beliefs are facts and that all opposing beliefs are lies. They have unquestionable faith that Jesus is their Lord God and Savior, and since their core beliefs are fact, being open-minded to altering the absolute truth of their core beliefs for anything else, which is obviously a lie, will not happen. Mat. 7:6

Thus, why would they ever seriously consider that their core beliefs are wrong? Looking at anything "else" is considering exchanging truth for a lie. No one is open to that. And to suggest that one of them might be in the "Many" of the lost Christians on the broad path that leads to destruction is just asking for a fight. But no group that believes themselves to be Christians ever sees themselves as being in the group that falls short. Suggest they are and you will see anger and the end of a discussion.

Mat 7:6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

But if the universal reason for all of the lost is 2Th. 2:10-13, i.e. refusing to receive a love of the truth God builds right into every man so they have a real choice and "no excuse" to pair it up with, we should see some similarity in what all the people in the world with false beliefs do to hold fast to their positions as "fact". Interestingly...

People who want to hold fast to what they “want to believe” “as” truth:

1.) Gather whatever they can “use” to prove what they “want to believe” to be truth.

2.) Accumulate all evidence they believe proves all opposing views incorrect.

3.) Assume their beliefs are unquestionable truth, and interpret everything in such a way as to make it all support, or at least not negate, their beliefs. Think about it. If your beliefs are unquestionable truths, all “valid” data, must support … or at least not negate, your infallible beliefs, right?

4.) Reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate … anything that doesn’t seem to fit with their views, Why? Our beliefs are “Fact” Valid data interpreted correctly can’t contradict the facts.

5.) Gather all the other experiences, feelings, data … to solidify their beliefs such as signs, wonders, spiritual gifts or facts about your belief group. Things like: we have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… Include anything that adds assurance that your views and belief group have the most truth.

These are the things we do "if" we just want to believe what we want to believe, and have reasons for discarding the rest. This process closes our eyes, ears and hearts to even considering anything else. This process allows all the people from every group believing themselves to be Christian to believe the gospel is simple, while believing completely different “simple” gospels.

Everyone in every group gets what they want. Every belief group knows they love the truth and have the truth. Every group uses this exact same Methodology. But since this Methodology can be used to prove anything true, or the exact same things false, at will, it is perfect for those who just want to keep believing what they already believe.

If you use the Methodology above, you can be a Moslem, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Roman Catholic, Calvinist, Arminian, ... anything at all, every belief under the sun, and "know" your beliefs are fact till the day you die. Ask any group. They all have these things and they all know that when you interpret all valid data correctly, their core beliefs are "fact". The more they "do" the Methodology in 1-5 above the more cemented or hardened into their beliefs they become, and the more their eyes and ears are closed to ever seriously considering anything else, which, by definition is all lies and error.

No one ever gets "from" their beliefs "to" truth using that Methodology above. Just like the 2Th. passage says. God makes sure that if they do not love truth they all have what they need to hold fast to their beliefs. It's their choice. God gives them over to it.

Joh 6:28 Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

The one work man does that makes all the eternal difference.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

It's both...

 

[Job 33:6]

I think that the simple answer to the calvanism vs Armenianism debate is that there is simply a logical contradiction in scripture. A contradiction born out of mankind's limited understanding and familiarity with God.

Scripture teaches both, they both seem to directly conflict with one another, so it's just a mystery of God.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

I think that the simple answer to the calvanism vs Armenianism debate is that there is simply a logical contradiction in scripture. A contradiction born out of mankind's limited understanding and familiarity with God.

Scripture teaches both, they both seem to directly conflict with one another, so it's just a mystery of God.

I'm not the only one who gets it?! I THOUGHT I WAS ALONE!!!!

Edit: I had also never heard of Molinism though which I am now studying.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'm not the only one who gets it?! I THOUGHT I WAS ALONE!!!!

Edit: I had also never heard of Molinism though which I am now studying.

Yes.

My thought on molinism Is that some Christians got together and started doing some mental gymnastics to get around the issue, but it's really just people's minds making convoluted efforts to get around something that is black and white. I don't think it really addresses anything but rather is just a compilation of word-salad used to obscure the topic and to sound like an intellectual solution.

The world wants every intellectual topic to fit into a nice neat little box where everything can be easily understood, rather than just accepting that the universe has it's mysteries.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Yes.

My thought on molinism Is that some Christians got together and started doing some mental gymnastics to get around the issue, but it's really just people's minds making convoluted efforts to get around something that is black and white. I don't think it really addresses anything but rather is just a compilation of word-salad used to obscure the topic and to sound like an intellectual solution.

The world wants every intellectual topic to fit into a nice neat little box where everything can be easily understood, rather than just accepting that the universe has it's mysteries.

That's really what it's reading like to me. I mean, I put it simply that the Bible does have verses that elude to the fact that one is "elected" by God for salvation...and also has verses that man also chooses whether to believe in God and His Son's sacrifice or not. Since His Word is perfect, it cannot contradict itself. Therefore, that must mean that it's both. God does choose us but at the same time we also have to choose God. If one does not choose God then God did not choose us.

Why make it more complicated than that?

 

[Strong in Him]

I never really stopped to investigate this before but there is one major problem with interpreting Arminianism from the Bible. That is the very fact that a completely sovereign, completely perfect God can fail in his promise to Abraham.

Who says that God failed in his promise to Abraham?

Note, I know little about Arminianism, but I am a Methodist and they lean towards it/accept a lot of it.

Let's ignore John 6:37-40 and other verses where God said not one of his elect will perish. Let's ignore the fact that if a completely sovereign God died for the entire world that he could find ways to save every soul who ever lived. Let's even ignore God's plan to save. Let's just say it's true. God died for the whole world yet somehow fails in saving the whole world because men reject him.

No, God gave his Son for the whole world, but also graciously gave people the choice of whether or not to accept his means of salvation - rather than forcing it upon them.

Tell me, how can God fail?

God has achieved salvation for all; Jesus said "I have finished the work that you gave me to do" and on the cross said "it is finished."
But God has CHOSEN to let us choose - not surprising that we should have the gift of choice, being made in his image. The alternative to that would have been to force salvation upon us; "I died for you, you WILL accept me". If God was going to force people to to anything he would have forcibly prevented Adam from taking the fruit, or created him in such a way that he couldn't disobey - like a robot, or computer; pre-programmed.

But how can God fail the very people he apparently died for?

God hasn't failed; mankind has failed.
And I would say that that includes Christians, who have either failed to preach the Gospel of grace and love, failed to be salt and light in the world or failed to love one another as Christ loved. I am certain that if we modelled that gracious, amazing, all inclusive, sacrificial, selfless love; if we were so excited at having had such love lavished upon us, 1 John 3:1, that we couldn't keep quiet about it, more people would come to the faith - bowled over by God's love and our showing his love.

I mean, God must be super bummed out right? Look at the world around you, look at history, look at all of the unGodliness in our world something that God is going to fix.

Yes - just as was saddened before the flood and regretted that he had made mankind.

But, nope an all sovereign, all powerful, all knowing God cannot come up with a plan to save all that he wanted to save.

He wants to save everybody - 2 Peter 3:9 - but because he has chosen to let us choose, he knows that some will not accept him.

I mean, does anybody else find this as depressing as I do? Just this one theory that God can fail in keeping his promises because mankind chooses that for themselves.

What I find depressing is that some seem to believe in a God who created all in his image, knows us all before we are conceived and yet says "I plan to save only a few of them. I've decided to save that one, but not these next 3; I've chosen to create some just so that I can send them to hell."
Firstly, those are not the actions of a perfect Father and someone who IS love.
Secondly, on what basis would he save - a whim? Is it down to nothing more than "good luck" that God has chosen that we shall belong to him? Or is the Bible, in fact, untrue and God DOES look for good works/faith/a nice personality and takes that into account when deciding who to save?
Thirdly, if any believe this, then what is the Gospel - "God loves you (as long as he has already decided to save you)"? "Jesus died for you - (possibly, if you have been chosen to be saved"?)

Thank God that God says the exact opposite in scripture. That all he promised to Abraham will be saved. That he promised to the Prophets, that he promised to his apostles. A God that can do anything, can come up with a plan to save all he wants to.

He WANTS to save everybody. Jesus died for all, not just for a few, selected folk.
Otherwise God would be doing what Jesus told us that we must NOT do - show love only to people who show love to us, Matthew 5:46. And telling us not to do something and then doing that thing yourself, is hypocrisy; something that Jesus hated.