The Bible

[sdmsanjose]

Originally Posted by sdmsanjose http://www.christianforums.com/t7494306-4/#post55605011
Clirus
Have you noticed that you have gotten a LOT of responses to your threads and posts?

Have you noticed that almost every one responding to you disagrees with you?

Do you think every one else is wrong and you are right?

Response by Clirus
I am well aware of the people that make most of the responses to my threads and posts?

I am willing to be proven wrong, but that will have to be by logic and not insults.

Clirus, are you trying to say that no one has given you logic; that they all just insulted you?

Frankly I think you are hiding behind the fact that I ONCE said that you reminded me of Archie Bunker. I said that because of your interpretation of the Bible seems to me to be somewhat Like Archie Bunker. Besides I have given you lots of logic and so has many on this forum.


Clirus, you talk about insults to you and you ignore your numerous insults to Christian leaders, all democrats, many blacks, the poor, atheists, The Catholic Church and Liberal Protestant Christians and you even question whether someone knows God. I am not insulting you I am posting your own very words below:

Quotes of Clirus:
If America had Christian leaders, I believe America would not have the present problems of tobacco, alcohol, obesity, etc. because the Bible teaches the body is God's temple.

A sure sign of repentance on a national level would be for no democrat to be elected in 2010 nor 2012.

Most blacks believe in the Village Family Concept while Christians believe in the Christian Family Concept. It is obvious the Village Family Concept is spreading.

Satan would be greatly pleased to see Christians waiting the tables of the poor that Satan had placed at the table.

I believe a person that is providing charity to a known Atheists is serving Satan.

I believe a lot of charity serves Satan more than it serves God

Do you really know God or do you only look at the New Testament.

The Catholic Church and Liberal Protestant Christians support Socialism as a concept of social justice.

There is no justification for Socialism until every person is doing everything possible to avoid the things that lead to poverty such as adultery, homosexuality, alcohol, drugs, etc.


Clirus, you can avoid answering questions by claiming someone is insulting you in an attempt to get off subject but I know that you avoided the question of

Do you think every one else is wrong and you are right?

 

[clirus]

sdmsanjose quote

Do you think every one else is wrong and you are right?

Response

I state what I believe based on my understanding of the Bible.

Other people state what they believe. Too often people think what they believe is fact, when it is only an opinion. Atheists believe there is no God.

I believe a lot of the interpretations of the Bible that I have heard are wrong and I state things that I hope will cause people to go back and examine the Bible.

Each of us has to answer to God for the decisions that we make.

sdmsanjose do you think every one else is wrong and you are right?

PS I answer question the way I believe they need to be answered, not necessarily the way you want them to be answered.

 

[clirus]

I don't mean to insult you, and I am sorry if I have. But would you please prove your assertions with evidence? You make a lot of bold statements, make very odd interpretations of passages of the Bible but you haven't provided any examples. Nor do you seem to be willing to provide examples that sin is the source of poverty.

It's even stated in the Old Testament that God allows the wicked to prosper and the righteous to suffer. Indeed this is hammered home in the book of Job. Job was actually used as an example in a Western Civilization class that was showing how Judaism was separate from other religions. Since the Bible deals with "Why do bad things happen to good people?"

The only answer God has ever seen fit to give to that question is, because it does. He also chastises Job's friends for using his condition as proof of sin. Clirus, I ask you, in the philosophy you have constructed how are you different from Job's friends? They very much did the "Show a newspaper in one hand, and Bible in the other" approach, and this did not please God.

If you deal with things from an absolute viewpoint there will always be exceptions. Never say never.

But sin does lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty, and I have shown examples of that.

I believe most poverty comes from sinful activity.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

But sin does lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty, and I have shown examples of that.

I believe most poverty comes from sinful activity.

Let's cut to the chase. You've made an extraordinary claim, and here (post 35), among many other occasions, I've asked you to support that assertion with empirically meaningful evidence, as opposed to conjecture. Now, answer me this and answer directly: do you, or do you not, intend to actually answer the question in post 35? Do you, or do you not, intend to answer the challenge and discharge the burden of proof that lays upon you? Your answer is important because we need to know whether we are wasting our time with someone who is going to make extraordinary but baseless assertions and then run away when hard questions are asked. We need to know whether you intend on actually participating in something akin a debate, rather than a self-serving Op-Ed article. We need to know whether our time is being squandered on having the temerity to ask you for something empirical to support your outrageous claims. If you don't intend to play hard ball, that is, to support your conclusions with solid and verifiable evidence, then you should either get off the field or tell the other players that you don't intend to bat. It's that simple.

 

[sdmsanjose]

Response by Clirus
sdmsanjose do you think every one else is wrong and you are right?

No, but not everybody on this thread disagrees with me like they do you.

I answered your question but you still have not directly answered the question of

Clirus do you think every one else is wrong and you are right?

Clirus, why do you think that everybody on this thread disagrees with you?



I used to think that pointing out other people’s failures was spiritual. Then others helped me to see what was meant by the scriptures of

Matthew 7
3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4"(D)Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Clirus, Do you think that the scriptures above should be applied to you also?

You have a good ability to avoid answering questions directly or not at all like you have with Art, so I would not be surprised if you avoid answering directly or not at all to my questions above.

 

[QuakerPete]

DuneSoldier quote

Who's going to take care of the children after the parents are executed like you wish them to be?

Response

After Social Security (entitlement program for seniors) is eliminated, there will be a need for children by couples who cannot have children by natural means.

I would rather think they are executed like they need/deserve to be.

If you don't get rid of the rotten apple, the whole barrel goes bad.

Clirus invokes the Daleks from Dr Who to rid the world of rotten apples . . . EXECUTE (exterminate) . . . EXECUTE (exterminate) . . . EXECUTE (exterminate) . . .

Seriously guys, why do you even bother trying?

 

[DuneSoldier]

If you deal with things from an absolute viewpoint there will always be exceptions. Never say never.

But sin does lead to disease, death, destruction and poverty, and I have shown examples of that.

I believe most poverty comes from sinful activity.

Can you please repost those examples with the solutions? How does your society deal with the elderly if their grown children die before they do? Or the handicapped?

 

[clirus]

Let's cut to the chase. You've made an extraordinary claim, and here (post 35), among many other occasions, I've asked you to support that assertion with empirically meaningful evidence, as opposed to conjecture. Now, answer me this and answer directly: do you, or do you not, intend to actually answer the question in post 35? Do you, or do you not, intend to answer the challenge and discharge the burden of proof that lays upon you? Your answer is important because we need to know whether we are wasting our time with someone who is going to make extraordinary but baseless assertions and then run away when hard questions are asked. We need to know whether you intend on actually participating in something akin a debate, rather than a self-serving Op-Ed article. We need to know whether our time is being squandered on having the temerity to ask you for something empirical to support your outrageous claims. If you don't intend to play hard ball, that is, to support your conclusions with solid and verifiable evidence, then you should either get off the field or tell the other players that you don't intend to bat. It's that simple.

The Bible answers your question.

Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

All I have done is make "death" applicable to the present day.

For the wages of physical sin is disease, death, destruction and poverty.

Not all sin leads to instant disease, death, destruction and poverty, and poverty is not proof of sin as proved by Job, but for most cases sin and disease, death, destruction and poverty are directly related.

Also I believe in two levels of sin.

Two Levels of Sin

I believe there are two levels of sin. One is Spiritual Sin and the other is Physical Sin.

I base this on three verses from the Bible.

1) Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. — But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

I believe this indicates there is a clear separation of what a Christian should not be involved in and what a Christian should do. Even failing to do what a Christian should do is a spiritual sin, but not a physical sin. I believe God forgives spiritual sin when we ask God to forgive us our sins when we pray.

To imply all sin is equal seems unrealistic. Yes, we all sin, and God is not pleased with any sin, but I believe God deals differently with physical sin and spiritual sin.

2) Matthew 5:27-28, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away."

I believe "in his heart" is spiritual sin. The physical sin would be adultery/fornication.

3) James 1:15 states. "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I believe this indicates three stages to sin: 1) conceiving - spiritual sin, 2) bring forth - physical sin and 3) death due to sin.

Again, all sin is objectionable to God because even the least of spiritual sins can lead to the grossest physical sin, but I believe God can deal with spiritual sin in a Christian through the Holy Spirit.

 

[clirus]

Can you please repost those examples with the solutions? How does your society deal with the elderly if their grown children die before they do? Or the handicapped?

Christians have a obligation to provide charity to fellow Christians.

How do Atheists take care of other Atheists.?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

The Bible answers your question.

Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

All I have done is make "death" applicable to the present day.

For the wages of physical sin is disease, death, destruction and poverty.

Not all sin leads to instant disease, death, destruction and poverty, and poverty is not proof of sin as proved by Job, but for most cases sin and disease, death, destruction and poverty are directly related.

Also I believe in two levels of sin.

Two Levels of Sin

I believe there are two levels of sin. One is Spiritual Sin and the other is Physical Sin.

I base this on three verses from the Bible.

1) Galatians 5:19-23, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkness, revellings, and such like: of which I tell you before, as I have also told you in the time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. — But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

I believe this indicates there is a clear separation of what a Christian should not be involved in and what a Christian should do. Even failing to do what a Christian should do is a spiritual sin, but not a physical sin. I believe God forgives spiritual sin when we ask God to forgive us our sins when we pray.

To imply all sin is equal seems unrealistic. Yes, we all sin, and God is not pleased with any sin, but I believe God deals differently with physical sin and spiritual sin.

2) Matthew 5:27-28, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away."

I believe "in his heart" is spiritual sin. The physical sin would be adultery/fornication.

3) James 1:15 states. "Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I believe this indicates three stages to sin: 1) conceiving - spiritual sin, 2) bring forth - physical sin and 3) death due to sin.

Again, all sin is objectionable to God because even the least of spiritual sins can lead to the grossest physical sin, but I believe God can deal with spiritual sin in a Christian through the Holy Spirit.

None of the above actually answers my question. I asked you for something specific, not for your interpretation of Bible (which we've already heard ad infinitum), but for empirically meaningful evidence obtained from observation of the real world. You have not provided what I asked for. You have not provided empirical evidence for your outrageous claim that most poverty is the consequence of sinfulness. You've provided your interpretation of the Bible, but you have not justified why your interpretation reflects reality because you haven't given it any empirical support. And so, I ask you once more, do you actually intend to present what I asked for? If not, you're wasting our time. If you're not willing to play hard ball, get off the field. We don't care much for mere opinion without thought. You are making an extraordinary claim, based on your interpretation of the Bible, but you aren't supporting it with empirical substance. You've failed to discharge the burden of proof. You've failed to substantiate your conclusion. And now we know that it is a waste of time to 'debate' with you since, whenever your assertions are challenged, you run away and repeat them and ignore all demands for substance. Hollow opinion is all that you give us. We want something more, something stronger, something that you fail to deliver.

 

[DuneSoldier]

Christians have a obligation to provide charity to fellow Christians.

How do Atheists take care of other Atheists.?

Then why don't we as Christian's live up to that obligation? How would you make people live up to that obligation?

 

[The Lady Kate]

Christians have a obligation to provide charity to fellow Christians.

How do Atheists take care of other Atheists.?

I thoght you were against people being forced to provide charity... I thought you called that socialism?

 

[clirus]

None of the above actually answers my question. I asked you for something specific, not for your interpretation of Bible (which we've already heard ad infinitum), but for empirically meaningful evidence obtained from observation of the real world. You have not provided what I asked for. You have not provided empirical evidence for your outrageous claim that most poverty is the consequence of sinfulness. You've provided your interpretation of the Bible, but you have not justified why your interpretation reflects reality because you haven't given it any empirical support. And so, I ask you once more, do you actually intend to present what I asked for? If not, you're wasting our time. If you're not willing to play hard ball, get off the field. We don't care much for mere opinion without thought. You are making an extraordinary claim, based on your interpretation of the Bible, but you aren't supporting it with empirical substance. You've failed to discharge the burden of proof. You've failed to substantiate your conclusion. And now we know that it is a waste of time to 'debate' with you since, whenever your assertions are challenged, you run away and repeat them and ignore all demands for substance. Hollow opinion is all that you give us. We want something more, something stronger, something that you fail to deliver.

I did not expect to change your mind, the discussion was really for sdmsanjose and DuneSoldier.

 

[clirus]

Then why don't we as Christian's live up to that obligation? How would you make people live up to that obligation?

I believe Christians do live up to the obligation of physical charity to fellow Christians.

It is Christians that serve Satan by extending physical charity to Atheists that is the problem.

I believe Christians should offer spiritual salvation to a person, then deal with the persons physical needs.

 

[Mr Dave]

I believe Christians do live up to the obligation of physical charity to fellow Christians.

It is Christians that serve Satan by extending physical charity to Atheists that is the problem.

I believe Christians should offer spiritual salvation to a person, then deal with the persons physical needs.

Let me clarify, you don't think it is right for a Christian to offer any 'physical' charity to any non-Christian, have I got that right?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I believe Christians do live up to the obligation of physical charity to fellow Christians.

It is Christians that serve Satan by extending physical charity to Atheists that is the problem.

I believe Christians should offer spiritual salvation to a person, then deal with the persons physical needs.

Which, as we have already pointed out, is where your interpretation of Scripture is in error. Was the Good Samaritan serving Satan by extending physical charity to a Jew? Of course not, Jesus makes it abundantly clear, in no imprecise terms, that a neighbour is not merely someone who shares the same religion as oneself.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I did not expect to change your mind, the discussion was really for sdmsanjose and DuneSoldier.

The point was not to change my mind, but to answer a simple question: are you going to play ball or not?

 

[clirus]

Let me clarify, you don't think it is right for a Christian to offer any 'physical' charity to any non-Christian, have I got that right?

I believe God can lead a person to do anything, but I do believe there is no obligation in the Bible for a Christian to offer anything other than salvation to an Atheist, except for the case when it is impossible to tell if the person is a Christian, as in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

I believe a Christian offering physical charity to an Atheist does more harm than good.

 

[QuakerPete]

I believe God can lead a person to do anything, but I do believe there is no obligation in the Bible for a Christian to offer anything other than salvation to an Atheist, except for the case when it is impossible to tell if the person is a Christian, as in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

I believe a Christian offering physical charity to an Atheist does more harm than good.

Yet another example of Clirus being Judge, Jury and, of course, Executioner . . . "does more harm than good"? Just substitute a number of other claims between the highlighted text.

 

[The Lady Kate]

I believe Christians should offer spiritual salvation to a person, then deal with the persons physical needs.

A man is starving in the street, and you offer to preach to them.