The Bible or Calvinism

[jimmyjimmy]

The Five Articles of the Remonstrants

Article 1.
Conditional Election

Article 2.
Unlimited Atonement

Article 3.
Deprivation

Article 4.
Resistible Grace

Article 5.
Assurance and Security

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Most people who oppose Calvinism have done a tremendous amount of research

This may be your experience, but in mine and ever Calvinist I've spoken to, most who oppose Calvinism do so out of ignorance, not careful study. They don't look hard at their 3 proof texts. They don't examine the evidence for God's sovereignty in election. They just have a knee-irk reaction to what it. I know all about this, because I did the same thing. I threw RC Sproul CDs across the room and broke them.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Truthfully, I think the self title of "Reformed Theology" is actually pretty telling.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Truthfully, I think the self title of "Reformed Theology" is actually pretty telling.

Yes. It tells you that it's not Roman theology.

 

[anna ~ grace]

If something is reformed it is, by definition, not the original of what it is trying to produce.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If something is reformed it is, by definition, not the original of what it is trying to produce.

Have you ever read church history?

 

[DeaconDean]

[QUOTE="jimmyjimmy, post: 71521620, member: 371870]They don't examine the evidence for God's sovereignty in election.[/QUOTE]

It has been my experience that most reject it because they also reject "God's Sovereignty".

I worked with a Catholic who told me the very notion of God's Sovereignty was "an abomination in the sight of the Catholic church."

Whether its true or not I have no idea since this was one persons opinion.

But I know for sure that most people reject Reformed theology because of God's Sovereignty and it also takes man out of the equation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Yes. It tells you that it's not Roman theology.

Roman theology is technically polytheism consisting in part of the worship of Jupiter, Mars, Diana, and other beings thought to control certain aspects of life or the weather.

Catholic theology is an expression of Apostolic and Patristic belief and liturgy as it developed in the Christian West, under the authority of the See of Peter. As opposed to, say, the See of Mark in Alexandria, or the non-Ephesian, Syriac East. Good history, cool stuff. Worth looking into.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Have you ever read church history?

Oh, yeah! And it's much, much cooler than the very basic, revisionist version of Church history I was taught as a girl growing up in the Lutheran Church. Way cooler. Lots to love, learn, and learn from.

 

[amariselle]

What I don't understand is why man's free will is somehow thought by many to somehow diminish God's sovereignty.

The Bible is clear that God is a relational God, who created people that had an actual, real relationship with Him, (broken through sin in the Garden).

Yet, God, in His sovereignty, and even though He knew Adam and Eve would sin, chose to send His Son. All of Scripture points to Christ.

It's truly amazing to me that God works with human beings who absolutely have free will (look at how many times Israel rebelled against the Lord), and HIS will, plans and purposes are NEVER thwarted. He is entirely able to work everything together according to His plan. Nothing we do or don't do ever surprises Him or catches Him off guard, because He knows all things.

In contrast, what is amazing about a God Who pre-programs a bunch of robots who have no free will and only do what they've been programmed to do? Sure, God is still sovereign and in control, but over what and to what purpose? More importantly, how can this kind of belief be reconciled with Scripture, which clearly presents God as relational. (And we are created in His image).

If we don't have free will, then we cannot truly love and we cannot have true fellowship/relationship with God or each other.

Also, such a belief takes away all accountability for our sin. After all, if we have no free will, we did not choose to sin, so we are not accountable for our sins. The Bible clearly teaches the opposite. We ARE accountable, and without Christ, the wrath of God remains upon us for our sins.

Anyway, I just cannot agree that mankind has no free will or ability to choose. It doesn't line up with Scripture.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[jimmyjimmy]

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[jimmyjimmy]

It has been my experience that most reject it because they also reject "God's Sovereignty".

I worked with a Catholic who told me the very notion of God's Sovereignty was "an abomination in the sight of the Catholic church."

Whether its true or not I have no idea since this was one persons opinion.

But I know for sure that most people reject Reformed theology because of God's Sovereignty and it also takes man out of the equation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Yes. Good point. I threw the Sproul CDs across the room because they were forcing me to see God's sovereignty, and I hated the idea of it (not completely on a conscious level) I hated another god in the universe.

Just as Adam hated the idea of God's sovereignty, his offspring do, as well. We, in our arrogance, want to come to God as Cain did.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I beg to differ. 99.99% of people caricature Classical Calvinism. Here's an example, explain the Classical Covenant Theology that the Reformed Faith teaches?

What do you mean by saying "here's an example" and then you ask a question? Do you believe R.C. Sproul. J.I. Packer, Michael Horton, Charles Hodge, B.B. Warfield and others caricarture Classical Calvinism?

 

[RisenInJesus]

This may be your experience, but in mine and ever Calvinist I've spoken to, most who oppose Calvinism do so out of ignorance, not careful study. They don't look hard at their 3 proof texts. They don't examine the evidence for God's sovereignty in election. They just have a knee-irk reaction to what it. I know all about this, because I did the same thing. I threw RC Sproul CDs across the room and broke them.

Maybe that was your immediate Holy Spirit led response to such aberrant teachings! But instead of listening you let yourself be indoctrinated into Calvinism.

 

[DeaconDean]

I don't know any Bible believer who opposes Calvinism because they don't agree with God's sovereignty.

I can see that you have not been here long.

Search the GT area just for threads on God's Sovereignty, and you'll get a surprise.

It is the unbiblical extreme Calvinistic idea of sovereignty that is wrong.

So, if I'm reading this correct, you don't believe in "sovereignty" at all.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Maybe that was your immediate Holy Spirit led response to such aberrant teachings! But instead of listening you let yourself be indoctrinated into Calvinism.

LOL! Don't pity me. Please.

For 20 years I was miserable as a Christian. I vacillated between arrogance and self-hatred, depending on how ell I thought that I was fulfilling God's law that day/week.

Reformed theology helped me make prefect sense of an other confusing Bible. It helped me see that the gospel had two parts to it, only one of which my church made me away of, and it helped me to give all of the glory to God. Lastly, it helped me to share my faith. Knowing that the growth is His job, I have been able to mine.

I believe the doctrine of grace because they are true, of course, but the benefits are fantastic.

 

[friend of]

In contrast, what is amazing about a God Who pre-programs a bunch of robots who have no free will and only do what they've been programmed to do?

If we don't have free will, then we cannot truly love and we cannot have true fellowship/relationship with God or each other.

And If we don't have free will, Faith can't really exist either (i.e. [Faith] the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen) How is God supposed to derive satisfaction from our Faith if He is responsible for forcing every shred of it without any admission on our part? Surely God is glorified through His creation approaching Him contritely in weakness, dependence, humility, faith (confidence or trust in a person or thing or a belief not based on proof) and hope (an optimistic attitude of mind based on an expectation or desire). Calvinism's deterministic nature bypasses Faith's very essence.

Hebrews 11:1-6

 

[RisenInJesus]

LOL! Don't pity me. Please.

For 20 years I was miserable as a Christian. I vacillated between arrogance and self-hatred, depending on how ell I thought that I was fulfilling God's law that day/week.

Reformed theology helped me make prefect sense of an other confusing Bible. It helped me see that the gospel had two parts to it, only one of which my church made me away of, and it helped me to give all of the glory to God. Lastly, it helped me to share my faith. Knowing that the growth is His job, I have been able to mine.

I believe the doctrine of grace because they are true, of course, but the benefits are fantastic.

How can a Christian be miserable? Or vacillate between arrogance and self-hatred. Those are the feelings I experienced before being born again. I can't even begin to understand that one who knows the love of Jesus and is a new creation in Christ can experience such thoughts. I don't think one needs reformed theology to find rest in Christ and to see that the scriptures say we are His workmanship.

 

[RisenInJesus]

I can see that you have not been here long.

Search the GT area just for threads on God's Sovereignty, and you'll get a surprise.



So, if I'm reading this correct, you don't believe in "sovereignty" at all.

God Bless

Till all are one.

You are not reading correctly. I do believe in the sovereignty of God as the scriptures reveal, but not "sovereignty" as defined by Calvinism.