The BIBLE only is the standard for truth... (3)

[simonthezealot]

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[sunlover1]

Simon, why do you say The "only" standard, when clearly God is the standard?
Or did you mean the only standard besides the obvious ?

 

[SavedByGraceThruFaith]

Simon, why do you say The "only" standard, when clearly God is the standard?
Or did you mean the only standard besides the obvious ?

Of course God is the standard.

But besides His written word, what other source of absolute truth do we have?

Some have claimed to get special revelations from God, but they turn out to be cult leaders. They see visions, hear voices, God spoke to their heart, an angel came and revealed more scripture, etc.

While the Holy Spirit will guide the saved, there is no more revealed words that we can accept.

So the only absolute revelation from God is His word.

The word of God is a finished revelation in terms of the words. There is no more absolute revelation besides the word of God which was completed in the book of Revelation.

 

[sunlover1]

Of course God is the standard.

But besides His written word, what other source of absolute truth do we have?

Some have claimed to get special revelations from God, but they turn out to be cult leaders. They see visions, hear voices, God spoke to their heart, an angel came and revealed more scripture, etc.

While the Holy Spirit will guide the saved, there is no more revealed words that we can accept.

So the only absolute revelation from God is His word.

The word of God is a finished revelation in terms of the words. There is no more absolute revelation besides the word of God which was completed in the book of Revelation.

I agree

But evidently some people assume that those of us who do feel
that way, do not consider God to be the Standard.
I would think that's a given, but it appears to be an area of
contention.
Go figure

Thanks for the answer.
Hoping that will suffice and I can move on from that argument
and merely defend my decision to consult Scripture in order to
ensure that doctrinal statements measure up to it.

 

[tadoflamb]

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)

(emphasis mine)

So, I've asked a number of times which doctrines has the BIBLE been profitable for. I don't understand why no one has come up with an answer. We know from the Sacred Scriptures that doctrines exist. What are they? Please be specific.

 

[sculleywr]

(emphasis mine) So, I've asked a number of times which doctrines has the BIBLE been profitable for. I don't understand why no one has come up with an answer. We know from the Sacred Scriptures that doctrines exist. What are they? Please be specific.

Listen to the first 10 minutes up until he said "the basics of Christian dogma in 8 minutes"

http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/the_essentials_of_christian_doctrine

 

[Standing Up]

(emphasis mine)

So, I've asked a number of times which doctrines has the BIBLE been profitable for. I don't understand why no one has come up with an answer. We know from the Sacred Scriptures that doctrines exist. What are they? Please be specific.

I answered the 7 of Hebrews 6.

My turn. Since Paul tells us to abide the traditions, did you observe the man-made Sunday Easter or the first fruits (resurrection) last 4/16 as the apostles and Christ would have?

 

[sunlover1]

I answered the 7 of Hebrews 6.

My turn. Since Paul tells us to abide the traditions, did you observe the man-made Sunday Easter or the first fruits (resurrection) last 4/16 as the apostles and Christ would have?

I saw this reply earlier, before the thread split. Must be tado missed it.
As well as the question you asked

 

[Thekla]

Of course God is the standard.

But besides His written word, what other source of absolute truth do we have?

Some have claimed to get special revelations from God, but they turn out to be cult leaders. They see visions, hear voices, God spoke to their heart, an angel came and revealed more scripture, etc.

While the Holy Spirit will guide the saved, there is no more revealed words that we can accept.

So the only absolute revelation from God is His word.

The word of God is a finished revelation in terms of the words. There is no more absolute revelation besides the word of God which was completed in the book of Revelation.

I agree

But evidently some people assume that those of us who do feel
that way, do not consider God to be the Standard.
I would think that's a given, but it appears to be an area of
contention.
Go figure

Thanks for the answer.
Hoping that will suffice and I can move on from that argument
and merely defend my decision to consult Scripture in order to
ensure that doctrinal statements measure up to it.

This was in response to my statement in the earlier section/s of the thread.

Of course, one does not assume what others believe - or know what they feel and what other's feelings are tied to or arise from ...

But instead I responded to the statement of the op, which states "the Bible is the only standard ..."

I disagree with the statement, and contend that Jesus Christ is the standard. And any interpretation of the Scriptures (as Scripture is not used without being interpreted) is only as accurate as its correlation to the standard.

I have further pointed out that every heresy has supported its claims using Scripture; one need only look at the history of the Councils, or not a few threads in GT, to find evidence for my statement.

We are in a time when (as I mentioned before) nearing 50% of Christians polled thought Jesus Christ sinned at some point. We are in a time when there are people who profess as Christians who espouse the Arian view, a gnostic view, a "philosophical Christ", and even some who believe what is written in the Scripture such as the resurrection are "metaphorical", not actual. That the virgin birth was not a miraculous event resulting in the incarnation of the Logos as Jesus Christ. That Jesus became the Christ at His baptism. That Christ died "spiritually" at the crucifixion.

One may look to Scripture for doctrine, indeed one does ! What one carries to the reading of Scripture influences what is found there.

Even some of the very commandments of Christ are treated as "negotiable" by SS adherents.

As I stated earlier, the doctrine existed before the NT Scriptures were penned; the ancient Churches have defended those doctrines using Scripture, just as those denying these doctrines defended their position using Scripture.

In our era, we have received the benefit of this long struggle to defend the doctrine once received; we received the Scriptures from these same ancient Churches. Their struggle - long struggle - helped create the default understandings that are today being eroded.

One may feel secure in their own faith, but Christianity has never been about "just me", and the issues raised in this thread are pertinent not only for the folks posting in GT. For the matter to be authentic, it is about our responsibility in continuous time: the past, the present, the future.

We are in the post-modern age, an age that western Christianity has helped to crown with an authority; this is evident in the matter of the broad swath of interpretations of Scripture, all claiming the Holy Spirit as guide, that are frankly frequently at odds.

Imo, someone is going to have to hold on to the faith once delivered as delivered as a deposit for those in the future.

 

[topcare]

SS adherents make Christianity just about "the me" not community also

 

[SolomonVII]

SS adherents make Christianity just about "the me" not community also

That would be true if SS did not have Bible study sessions together as a church and a community.
But since SS do study the Bible together, that is not true.

 

[sunlover1]

But instead I responded to the statement of the op, which states "the Bible is the only standard ..."

I disagree with the statement, and contend that Jesus Christ is the standard. And any interpretation of the Scriptures (as Scripture is not used without being interpreted) is only as accurate as its correlation to the standard.

I have further pointed out that every heresy has supported its claims using Scripture; one need only look at the history of the Councils, or not a few threads in GT, to find evidence for my statement.

Certainly they would use the commonly held standard
to support their claims. Is it less inspired because it's been abused?

We are in a time when (as I mentioned before) nearing 50% of Christians polled thought Jesus Christ sinned at some point.

Clearly men need to read the Scriptures
You search the Scriptures because you think that in
them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me

We are in a time when there are people who profess as Christians who espouse the Arian view, a gnostic view, a "philosophical Christ", and even some who believe what is written in the Scripture such as the resurrection are "metaphorical", not actual. That the virgin birth was not a miraculous event resulting in the incarnation of the Logos as Jesus Christ. That Jesus became the Christ at His baptism. That Christ died "spiritually" at the crucifixion.

That Mary is the Co-Redemtrix
and on and on we can go.
CLEARLY men need to seek God and repent,
and stop listening to doctrines of devils.
Doesn't matter much what your standard is
if your ears are dull.

One may look to Scripture for doctrine, indeed one does ! What one carries to the reading of Scripture influences what is found there.

Even some of the very commandments of Christ are treated as "negotiable" by SS adherents.

Doesn't speak to Scripture
Speaks to men's foolish hearts.
Would they be less foolish if Jesus
SPOKE the words to them,
Rather than them reading them.
Apparently it didn't help much

One may feel secure in their own faith, but Christianity has never been about "just me", and the issues raised in this thread are pertinent not only for the folks posting in GT. For the matter to be authentic, it is about our responsibility in continuous time: the past, the present, the future.

Which is why we promote unity and stand against
denomination mentality.
But who really cares what God says about "ONENESS"?
Everyone has a 'reason' that that can't be done.
Hmmm, must be God didn't get that memo.
Impossibility, meet God.

We are in the post-modern age, an age that western Christianity has helped to crown with an authority; this is evident in the matter of the broad swath of interpretations of Scripture, all claiming the Holy Spirit as guide, that are frankly frequently at odds.

Imo, someone is going to have to hold on to the faith once delivered as delivered as a deposit for those in the future.

And that faith once delivered was written down,
which is why God, our 'standard' said:
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.
What are we to live by? Every WORD of God.
What are those words? Where are they found?

 

[sunlover1]

SS adherents make Christianity just about "the me" not community also

How's that?
What kind of denomination do you belong to btw?

 

[SolomonVII]

We are living in a secular age.

What percentage of Catholics follow their churches teaching on birth control?
Which percentage of Catholics go to Church each Sunday, for according to Tradition it is a mortal sin to no do so without excuse?
Which percentage of Christians of any kind read their Bible regularly?
Which percentage of Christians of any kind believe that the body is literally resurrected, and in other such miracles?

It is a very small group of people that do, and to the extent that people in GT are more likely than average to believe these kinds of things, there is every likelihood that people here have more in common with each other than with the people in their actual non-virtual faith community that they have direct bodily contact with.

The most dynamic faith in the last one hundred and fifty years has been secularism, and it is not too much scripture that has led to that state of affairs, but too little.

 

[sunlover1]

We are living in a secular age.

What percentage of Catholics follow their churches teaching on birth control?
Which percentage of Catholics go to Church each Sunday, for according to Tradition it is a mortal sin to no do so without excuse?
Which percentage of Christians of any kind read their Bible regularly?
Which percentage of Christians of any kind believe that the body is literally resurrected, and in other such miracles?

It is a very small group of people that do, and to the extent that people in GT are more likely than average to believe these kinds of things, there is every likelihood that people here have more in common with each other than with the people in their actual non-virtual faith community that they have direct bodily contact with.

The most dynamic faith in the last one hundred and fifty years has been secularism, and it is not too much scripture that has led to that state of affairs, but too little.

Great points.

The world (and even those who think that by going to church they
are on their way to heaven/ fire insurance) needs us to BE as He is.
They need less talk and more action.

 

[THIS]

The Old Testament was written to those who spoke Aramaic, or Hebrew, not Greek. The things called Traditions of men are the things not in the written Word of God---those teachings go against God’s Truth, just as Jesus says, and I can prove it easily with scripture.

 

[sculleywr]

How's that? What kind of denomination do you belong to btw?

Scripture was not written in a vacuum, so it should not be interpreted in a vacuum. Scripture was written in the church and for the church. For it to be of maximum benefit to the believer, it is to be interpreted within the church and in unity therein.

 

[sculleywr]

The Old Testament was written to those who spoke Aramaic, or Hebrew, not Greek. The things called Traditions of men are the things not in the written Word of God---those teachings go against God’s Truth, just as Jesus says, and I can prove it easily with scripture.

Hold fast to the TRADITIONS I have given you, BOTH by WORD and by my EPISTLE.

Tradition is direct obedience in literal form to this verse and two other passages that command it.

 

[sunlover1]

Hold fast to the TRADITIONS I have given you, BOTH by WORD and by my EPISTLE.

Tradition is direct obedience in literal form to this verse and two other passages that command it.

What traditions did he give?
A list would be helpful

 

[Thekla]

Certainly they would use the commonly held standard
to support their claims. Is it less inspired because it's been abused?

But I've never claimed the Scriptures are not inspired

Clearly men need to read the Scriptures
You search the Scriptures because you think that in
them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me

I agree, they do. But searching the Scriptures is no guarantee; and teaching what we think we find there before true spiritual maturity is dangerous. For ourselves, and others ....

That Mary is the Co-Redemtrix
and on and on we can go.

As I am not walking in an RC community, I won't venture to evaluate this ... I won't claim to understand it well enough to do so.

But clearly Mary has the status of co-worker with God; that was by His will.
And clearly, nothing would be as it is today if she had not been a co-worker with God.

CLEARLY men need to seek God and repent,
and stop listening to doctrines of devils.

This has been the case since the first; nor is this need over once we turn to Christ, but continues as a risk over the course of our sojourn.

Doesn't matter much what your standard is
if your ears are dull.

I agree; but the matter of the state of the ears of the spiritual heart is ongoing for every Christian.

Doesn't speak to Scripture
Speaks to men's foolish hearts.
Would they be less foolish if Jesus
SPOKE the words to them,
Rather than them reading them.
Apparently it didn't help much

Then of course we should be doubly alert to this problem re: Scripture.

All that Christ did was a "natural expression" of Himself; His actions are our guide as well as the Scripture. If it is so hard to understand when He walked the earth with us, then (again) this will be so with Scripture.

Which is why we promote unity and stand against
denomination mentality.
But who really cares what God says about "ONENESS"?
Everyone has a 'reason' that that can't be done.
Hmmm, must be God didn't get that memo.
Impossibility, meet God.

Yet even in this post, there is a "denomination mentality" (the co-redemptrix issue); it will be hard to shed.

And of course, it will happen - though sometimes I think what is called "denomination mentality" is looking at the other guy, not oneself. And reflects the modern culture, which defines the person politically. This was not the case at the time the Scriptures were written, as the mindset was different. In fact, Christ quite specifically said "all ethnoi" - and an ethnoi denotes a cultural entity, each with a particular manner of understanding, learning, expressing self. Our modern (and political) desire to discard this is perhaps part of the reason we "see" denominationally when in fact what we see is modes of understanding that do not quickly translate to our own.

The second aspect is of course disagreement on doctrine; this cannot just be smoothed over to "look good", to have the appearance of unity.

If I were to ask you what doctrine your worshiping community would jettison for the sake of unity - what would it/they be ? Or what of the RC core doctrine you would introduce and live in your community for the sake of unity - could you answer "all of them" ?

And what changes would that introduce downstream ? A change in teaching does change more than the teaching; in the matter of (for example) the filioque, some see the downstream effect of this teaching introduced into the creed as the present understanding of the RC pope.

And that faith once delivered was written down,
which is why God, our 'standard' said:
It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God.
What are we to live by? Every WORD of God.
What are those words? Where are they found?

Yes, He did. And His actions are just as strongly His teaching; the words interpret the actions and the actions interpret the words.

Some of His words are found in the Holy Scriptures; some of His teachings carried by the apostles are not so explicitly found there, but became the basis for maintaining the integrity of the understanding of the words found in the Scriptures.

So, for example, we cannot discard the commandment of baptism - for those who received the Scripture but not their context, this is something that has become "debatable".

How much of the Scriptures would you be willing to discard for the sake of unity ?