The Bible is the Word of God, and is God Himself

ViaCrucis

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Matthew 16:19 is future tense. Jesus makes Peter a promise. The promise does not get fulfilled until later, when ALL the Apostles receive the same authority.

Aye, John 20:21-23 takes place after the resurrection. The fullness of this promise, as with the promise of the sending of the Spirit, happening on Pentecost (Thomas was notably absent in John 20:21-23 as verse 24 shows, but Thomas did not lack this dispensation, he would have been present on Pentecost--the same day that we also see Peter finally able to stand up and, by the Spirit's own power, declare what he declared). Therefore all the Apostles received the Keys, not Peter only.

I don't think it's an accident that St. Matthew tells us that almost as soon as we have Peter's confession of Christ that we then see Peter screwing up and Christ rebuking him. The reception of the Keys did not happen until after our Lord rose from the dead, and its fullness until after He ascended and the promise of the Spirit came in full. For the exercising of the Keys only makes sense with the King seated on His Throne, reigning through His Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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concretecamper

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Matthew 16:19 is future tense. Jesus makes Peter a promise. The promise does not get fulfilled until later, when ALL the Apostles receive the same authority.
Scripture is clear, Peter received a singular Authority and the Apostles received Authority as a group. That Authority was given at the birth of the Church (Pentecost).
 
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concretecamper

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I hate to disagree with you, but the 39th Paschal Encyclical of Pope St. Athanasius (who is a saint in the Roman Catholic Church, in fact I think he is considered a Doctor of the Church, one of the Greek Doctors along with St. Basil, St. Gregory Nazianzus, and St. John Chrysostom) absolutely was the canon law in the Church of Alexandria, and also prior to the sixth century only the Bishop of Alexandria was styled Pope.

However, the fact that Rome adopted the Athanasian canon is doubtless why Antioch adopted it; given the rivalry between Antioch and Alexandria, I don’t think Antioch would have adopted it were it not for a combination of the chagrin brought about by Nestorius and the departure of some members of the Catechtical School of Antioch of a Nestorian disposition for Nisibis and the fact that Rome enthusiastically adopted it, so thus it became an opportunity for Antioch to demonstrate its continued orthodoxy. This also explains the priority the Syriac Orthodox put into adding the extra five books of the Athanasian Canon into the Peshitta, through translations by Mor Philoxenus of Mabbug (one would suspect the 22 book canon of the East Syriac Peshitta would have been preferred in Antioch).
The fact that St Athanasius got it right is by no means an argument against His Church (though synods and Papal approval) approving a Canon to be used at Mass.
 
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concretecamper

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Aye, John 20:21-23 takes place after the resurrection. The fullness of this promise, as with the promise of the sending of the Spirit, happening on Pentecost (Thomas was notably absent in John 20:21-23 as verse 24 shows, but Thomas did not lack this dispensation, he would have been present on Pentecost--the same day that we also see Peter finally able to stand up and, by the Spirit's own power, declare what he declared). Therefore all the Apostles received the Keys, not Peter only.

I don't think it's an accident that St. Matthew tells us that almost as soon as we have Peter's confession of Christ that we then see Peter screwing up and Christ rebuking him. The reception of the Keys did not happen until after our Lord rose from the dead, and its fullness until after He ascended and the promise of the Spirit came in full. For the exercising of the Keys only makes sense with the King seated on His Throne, reigning through His Church.

-CryptoLutheran
that's the first time I've seen that claim made. Having multiple keys isn't consistent with was was preconfigured in the OT or the development of the Church.
 
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Daniel Peres

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The Bible is the Work of God, and in that context it is the WORD of God. The English Standard Version of 2 Timothy 3:16 leaves no doubt when it says, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness...” Similarly, other versions says that all Scripture is God-breathed.

Other versions, such as the New Living Translation, starts out by saying “All Scripture is INSPIRED BY God.” Is there really any difference as to whether all Scripture is breathed out by God or inspired by God when the purpose of the Scriptures in God’s name is the same?

Some may argue it’s not the same thing. They may say that the phrase “inspired by God” suggests that the Bible is the work of man rather than of God. But in terms of true faith, the only works that count are those of God. Those works are either from God himself or they are manifested in others as God’s works. Ephesians 2:8-10 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. AND THIS IS NOT YOUR OWN DOING; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD, NOT A RESULT OF WORKS, SO THAT NO ONE MAY BOAST. For we are his workmanship, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

One good work of God is manifested in those of the Faith who write the Word of God in the Bible. Those of the faith are not writing their own words, they’re writing the Words of God. Every Word of God, from the Ten Commandments to the numerous battles in the Old Testament, to the birth of Jesus, his teachings and his Ascension are the Words of God. So, to risk an analogy, as every word of Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address is Lincoln himself (but reflecting God’s good works), every Word of God in the Bible is God Himself.
There is only one part of the Bible that is the logos, in my opinion, and that is the Ten Commandments. I say this because they are not really called the Ten Commandments. In actuality they are called the Ten Logos or dekalogos. They are the eternal law that Paul states is written on the hearts of all human beings.
 
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ViaCrucis

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that's the first time I've seen that claim made. Having multiple keys isn't consistent with was was preconfigured in the OT or the development of the Church.

Who said anything about "multiple keys"? The Keys, singular, are the possession of the whole Church, from Christ who gave them to the Apostles.

"Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: 'I say unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops," - St. Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 26.1

"If any one consider and examine these things, there is no need for lengthened discussion and arguments. There is easy proof for faith in a short summary of the truth. The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, 'I say unto you, that you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, 'As the Father has sent me, even so send I you: Receive the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins you remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins you retain, they shall be retained;' yet, that He might set forth unity, He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one. Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity." - St. Cyprian of Carthage, Treatise 1.4

"But if you suppose that upon that one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, 'The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,' hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, 'Upon this rock I will build My church'? Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, 'I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,' be common to the others, how shall not all the things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them? For in this place these words seem to be addressed as to Peter only, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,' etc.; but in the Gospel of John the Saviour having given the Holy Spirit unto the disciples by breathing upon them said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit,' etc." - Origen, Commentaries on Matthew, XII.11

"For if in Peter's case there were no sacramental symbol of the Church, the Lord would not have said to him, 'I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.' If this was said only to Peter, it gives no ground of action to the Church. But if such is the case also in the Church, that what is bound on earth is bound in heaven, and what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven, — for when the Church excommunicates, the excommunicated person is bound in heaven; when one is reconciled by the Church, the person so reconciled is loosed in heaven: — if such, then, is the case in the Church, Peter, in receiving the keys, represented the holy Church." - St. Augustine, Tractates on the Gospel of John, Tractate 50.12

I'd highly recommend looking to see what the ancient and holy Fathers had to say on these things.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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prodromos

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Scripture is clear, Peter received a singular Authority and the Apostles received Authority as a group. That Authority was given at the birth of the Church (Pentecost).
You repeating it does not make it so, and even if it was as you claim, it does not follow that one bishop in one location would continue to have "singular authority" in the Church.
 
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concretecamper

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Who said anything about "multiple keys"? The Keys, singular, are the possession of the whole Church, from Christ who gave them to the Apostles.

"Our Lord, whose precepts and admonitions we ought to observe, describing the honour of a bishop and the order of His Church, speaks in the Gospel, and says to Peter: 'I say unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' Thence, through the changes of times and successions, the ordering of bishops and the plan of the Church flow onwards; so that the Church is founded upon the bishops," - St. Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 26.1

"If any one consider and examine these things, there is no need for lengthened discussion and arguments. There is easy proof for faith in a short summary of the truth. The Lord speaks to Peter, saying, 'I say unto you, that you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' And again to the same He says, after His resurrection, 'Feed my sheep.' And although to all the apostles, after His resurrection, He gives an equal power, and says, 'As the Father has sent me, even so send I you: Receive the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins you remit, they shall be remitted unto him; and whose soever sins you retain, they shall be retained;' yet, that He might set forth unity, He arranged by His authority the origin of that unity, as beginning from one. Assuredly the rest of the apostles were also the same as was Peter, endowed with a like partnership both of honour and power; but the beginning proceeds from unity." - St. Cyprian of Carthage, Treatise 1.4

"But if you suppose that upon that one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, 'The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,' hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, 'Upon this rock I will build My church'? Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, 'I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,' be common to the others, how shall not all the things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them? For in this place these words seem to be addressed as to Peter only, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,' etc.; but in the Gospel of John the Saviour having given the Holy Spirit unto the disciples by breathing upon them said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit,' etc." - Origen, Commentaries on Matthew, XII.11

"For if in Peter's case there were no sacramental symbol of the Church, the Lord would not have said to him, 'I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.' If this was said only to Peter, it gives no ground of action to the Church. But if such is the case also in the Church, that what is bound on earth is bound in heaven, and what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven, — for when the Church excommunicates, the excommunicated person is bound in heaven; when one is reconciled by the Church, the person so reconciled is loosed in heaven: — if such, then, is the case in the Church, Peter, in receiving the keys, represented the holy Church." - St. Augustine, Tractates on the Gospel of John, Tractate 50.12

I'd highly recommend looking to see what the ancient and holy Fathers had to say on these things.

-CryptoLutheran
As long as you are quoting Cyprian

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
 
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The Liturgist

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The fact that St Athanasius got it right is by no means an argument against His Church (though synods and Papal approval) approving a Canon to be used at Mass.
According to Canon VI of Nicaea the Church of Alexandria was, and still is, autocephalous, and furthermore even today the Coptic Catholic Church is what an Orthodoxy would be called “autonomous” insofar as the Roman Pope does not claim to be the Patriarch (there are I think a couple of sui juris Eastern Catholic churches where the Pope is the Patriarch due to size and location, for example, the Italo-Albanian Greek Catholic Church, which does have its own bishops, but it consists of the Byzantine Rite Catholics of Sicily, who are largely but not entirely ethnically Albanian, as there have always been Byzantine Rite churches in Sicily.* Thus Papal approval would not have been required for Paschal Encyclical 39. Now to clarify the the nature of these documents, these were encyclicals sent by Pope St. Athanasius to the bishops of his Patriarchate, to advise them on which date to celebrate Pascha (Easter) according to the Paschalion (known in Latin as the computus, which is the mathematical formula for calculating the date on which to celebrate Easter in a given year according to the rules adopted by the entire church at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

Now, neither the Greek Orthodox nor the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria has never accepted the doctrine of Papal Supremacy whether it involved the Roman Pope or its own. Indeed there is a famous anecdote among the Copts (which might well also exist among the Alexandrian Greeks; sadly I don’t know any, whereas ChristianForums is blessed with at least two Coptic members, @Pavel Mosko and @dzheremi who might have heard this story, in which many years ago, a diocesan bishop was unavoidably detained while en route to one of his churches, where he was to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with the Pope of Alexandria. When he finally arrived, he was justifiably indignant that the Pope had begun to liturgize without him, which is a huge canonical no-no, with many canon laws from the first millenium strictly prohibiting bishops, even bishops of higher rank such as Metropolitans, Patriarchs and Popes, from celebrating a liturgy in the diocese of another bishop (likewise parish priests are not supposed to cross parish boundaries without authorization, but in the case of bishops, since there is canonically no such thing as a bishop of bishops, intruding in the diocese of another bishop, by, for instance, celebrating the liturgy in his diocese, is strongly frowned upon and could even get one deposed.

Thus, rightfully indignant, the diocesan priest proceeded to squash underfoot the Pope’s mitre, and the Pope of Alexandria accepted this rebuke, because he realized he was in the wrong.

Note this story is not about Pope St. Athanasius, or as far as I know, any of the other well known Popes of Alexandria, such as St. Cyril the Great, St. Theophilus, Dioscorus, Shenouda II of blessed memory, or any other recent Pope; the story might be an instructive tale, or perhaps it did happen, and perhaps @dzheremi or @Pavel Mosko will know who it was about or if its origins are in legend (this is the sort of thing that if true would be recorded in the Coptic Synaxarion, which is similiar to the Roman Martyrology and the Greek Synaxarium, and the Prologue of Ohrid, in that it details the martyrs, saints and historic events commemorated on each day, and which is read along with a Psalm, a Pauline Epistle, a Catholic Epistle (that is to say, one of the Epistles not written by St. Paul, such as 1 John, 2 Peter, Jude or James), the book of Acts, and a Gospel lesson at every Divine Liturgy).

This all being said, while the power of Pope St. Athanasius to enforce the Athanasian canon outside of the boundaries of the Metropolis of Alexandria would have required the support of his Holy Synod, the permanent council of bishops which rules every Orthodox church (albeit only to the extent that the perogative of individual bishops is not violated, since all bishops are equal and titles like Patriarch, Metropolitan, Archbishop and so on are more indicative of seniority than raw political power, with the leader of each Orthodox church being the Primus Inter Pares among the bishops of the Holy Synod), St. Athanasius commanded enough respect by the time he wrote his 39th Paschal Encyclical that his bishops would have implemented it without question. For Pope St. Athanasius, who by then was quite elderly and had only a decade previously been allowed to return after years spent in exile in Trier after having been arrested by Imperial guards after St. Constantine’s son Constantius had been converted to Arianism through the sinister machinations of Eusebius of Nicomedia, the Arian bishop who managed to avoid attending the Council of Nicaea and thus ingratiate himself with the Imperial household without the stigma of someone defiant of Emperor Constantine, and indeed it was he who baptized St. Constantine when the man who had stopped the death of millions of Christians by the genocidal Diocletian persecution was himself on his deathbed. And this ironically gave rise to a renewed persecution of Christians, only this time by Arians who claimed to be Christian, but whose theology was that of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a persecution fortunately nowhere near as bloody as the Diocletian, however, the Arians did convert the Visigoths to their religion, so even though the official persecution ended under St. Theodosius, a blood soaked persecution continued as Visigothic tribes conquered Roman land and killed and enslaved Roman Christians.

Later the Visigoths who had settled in Asia and Africa were converted to Islam, which is not a huge leap of faith when one has already thrown out the doctrine of the Trinity, and eventually Christianity disappeared from all North African countries except for Egypt and Ethiopia, with all signs pointing to a genocide similar to that later visited on the Assyrian Church of the East in the twelfth century (before that persecution, under the Uzbek warlord Timur, also known as Timur the Lame or Tamerlane, which sounds like the name of a demon to me, the Church of the East was the largest in the world geographically and in terms of members, covering an area from Turkey to Mongolia and Socotra, an island south of Yemen, to Tibet, and everything in between, such as Persia, India, and China, stopping only at the Yellow Sea; after the persecution, only those parts of the Church in Kerala, India and the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East, primarily the Nineveh Plains in modern day Iraq and Kurdistan, survived).

Also by the way, the Athanasian Canon is not a lectionary; it does not define which books are to be read, rather, it is a list of books permitted to be read, with some restrictions. Interestingly, the Athanasian Canon authorized the Apocalypse of St. John, or Revelation as some people call it, or Revelations as I like to call it since there is more than one big reveal, however, most traditional lectionaries do not include it in their annual cycle of lessons (for that matter, I am not sure about the new three year lectionaries either), the one prominent exception being the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, which reads the entire Apocalypse cover-to-cover in the afternoon on Holy Saturday.

*and also in Venice, which is also a center of the Armenian Catholic Church and home to their most important monastery - this is interesting because before the genocide in 1915 the Armenian Catholic Church was the largest Eastern Catholic Church, whereas now the Maronites outnumber Armenian Catholics to a massive extent, which shows how much larger and worse the genocide against Armenians, Syriacs and Pontic Greeks was than most people realize the result of the Armenian Apostolic Church as a whole nearly uniting with Rome, which is why Armenian liturgies conclude with the Last Gospel and Armenian bishops wear Western-shaped mitres, but there is also extreme influence from the Byzantine Rite, because the Armenian church also nearly reunited with the Eastern Orthodox, and this all occurred during a schism with the Syriac Orthodox Church, which combined with the later cultural devastation inflicted by Turkey and Azerbaijan, has caused a great detail of indigenous Armenian liturgical practices and artforms to be lost or to become endangered. For example, of the 13 or so Armenian language anaphoras, which included a Presanctified liturgy, translations of major Eastern anaphoras such as those of St. Basil, and Armenian-original compositions, only one of them, the Anaphora of St. Athanasius, which is an abbreviated version of the anaphora from the ancient Jerusalemite liturgy, the Divine Liturgy of St. James used in the Byzantine, Maronite, Syriac Catholic, Malankara Catholic, and Syriac Orthodox** liturgies, which is now coupled to a Byzantine Rite synaxis.

One thing I wish the Armenian Catholic Church would do, which would be in keeping with Vatican II, would be to introduce vernacular services and restore the disused anaphoras and other disused parts of the Armenian liturgy. Right now the Armenian Apostolic Church is (I think***) the only Orthodox church which does not use the vernacular, rather, everything is done in Classical Armenian except preaching, but as you may know Classical Armenian has a relationship with the vernacular Eastern and Western dialects of Armenian not unlike the relationship between Classical Latin and modern Portuguese and Romanian, or the relationship between Church Slavonic and vernacular Russian and Serbian.

** Syriac Orthodox in this case includes all four jurisdictions, namely the Patriarchate of Antioch, the Jacobite Church in India which is in communion with the Patriarch of Antioch, the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church also known as the Indian Orthodox Church, and the Malankara Independent Syrian Church, which is in full communion with the Mar Thoma Syrian Church, a Protestant church using a simplified version of the Divine Liturgy of St. James, which is also a member of the Anglican communion, so by curious circumstances, the Malankara Independent Syrian Church is the only Orthodox church in full communion with an Anglican church (but I don’t think any of the other Oriental Orthodox churches are in communion with them). The Church of South India, the Church of North India, the Church of Pakistan and the Church of Bangladesh are uniting churches comprised of most of the Protestant churches in India that existed during the British Raj, of which the Anglicans were the largest, and these were united into regional churches after independence and the disastrous Partition. Of these, due to its proximity to the churches St. Thomas Christians of South India, who have been in India since 53 AD, and are thus a thousand years older than Sikhism (and the total number of Christians in India is about equal to the combined total of Sikhs and Jains), the Church of South India in 1952 adopted a liturgy partially based on that of St. James.

Unfortunately, the CSI also, with that liturgy, became the first major denomination to celebrate versus populum, a practice which tragically became normalized in Roman Catholicism with the Novus Ordo Missae under Bugnini, which led to the “wreckovation” of tens of thousands of ancient Catholic churches in order to facilitate celebration of the liturgy facing the people; prior to this, only a few churches in Rome had westward-oriented altars, and this was actually for a very pious and traditional reason: these churches feature a confessio, an architectural feature that is a dip in the floor allowing the faithful to, without entering the altar, to pass down directly in front of the altar and thus become as close as possible to the relics of the holy martyr buried beneath the holy table.

This, for non-liturgical Christians, by the way, is why altars in some churches have anthropic proportions similiar to coffins: because the Roman Empire martyred so many Christians in the second and third and early fourth centuries, that historically liturgies were held in cemetaries and catacombs atop the graves of Christian martyrs, and after the Diocletian persecution finally came to an end under St. Constantine, it was agreed by all the ancient churches that henceforth every altar (or to be more precise, every holy table in the altar) on which Holy Communion was celebrated was to contain the relics of a martyr. This custom was respected until the Reformation, when in the darkest hour of Anglicanism under Thomas Cranmer, the thing Cranmer did which I cannot endorse, a horrible iconoclasm was embraced in which the relics of the saints interred under many English altars, including St. Thomas Becket, who was martyred by King Henry, who had been his best friend, for excommunicating an English nobleman who murdered a priest, were disinterred and desecrated, and the altars smashed; this event, along with the original reasons for the Anglican schism, Dissolution of the Monasteries, which was a disaster both because of the adverse impact on religious freedom and because of the vital role monasteries played in providing social services to the people of England (they were in effect the welfare system), are the only things about Anglicanism I find historically objectionable, but the Church of England did spectacularly redeem itself through its missionary work, and the work of the Anglo Catholics in the late 19th and early 20th century to aid the urban poor, in which they rivalled the Salvation Army in terms of their successes, and in aiding impoverished Christians of the East, in which they remain unrivalled.

Likewise I have little patience for people who object to Roman Catholicism on the basis of the Crusades and the Inquisition; these historic events are irrelevant and the Roman church has apologized for them, while at the same time the Roman church operates the most comprehensive, and probably the most significant, network of charities in the entire world including schools, hospitals, orphanages (which are needed in Muslim-majority countries with Shariah law, which is more barbaric than most people realize in that in addition to requiring people be flogged, dismembered or beheaded for various offenses, it strongly prohibits adoption), hospices, food banks, accomodation for the homeless, and other charitable services.

*** I seem to recall recently coming across a vernacular language Ethiopian or Eritrean Orthodox liturgy; they have a reputation for doing everything in the ancient Ge’ez language, the Semitic language spoken by Ethiopian Jews in antiquity, in which several books of the Old Testament survive intact where only Hebrew and Aramaic fragments exist, that is the ancestor of Amharic**** and other vernacular languages spoken in Ethiopia at present.

**** Not to be confused with Aramaic, speaking of which, the Assyrian Church of the East recently introduced vernacular liturgies in the English language in Australia; prior to that point, they used the Classical Syriac dialect of Aramaic exclusively for many years, but now commonly, and fortuitously, since the 700,000 members of their church who still speak a vernacular Eastern Neo-Aramaic dialect are the largest surviving community of vernacular Aramaic speakers in existence (if I had to guess, I would think the 60,000 Mandaeans who lived in Iraq prior to 2003 and who have since that time become geographically scattered would be the second largest Aramaic population; it is a pity @SteveCaruso who used to regularly post about Aramaic issues on CF.com seems to be inactive), and since the Assyrians primarily use just one common dialect, unlike the small number of vernacular Aramaic speakers in the Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox churches, who speak a few different dialects, the priests now tend to do the service in this modern Aramaic dialect, rather than Classical Syriac.
 
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dzheremi

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Indeed there is a famous anecdote among the Copts (which might well also exist among the Alexandrian Greeks; sadly I don’t know any,

There aren't too many to know, from what I understand. Orthodoxwiki says there are 300K in Egypt, which is still about double that of the Coptic Catholics (~ 162 K), but fewer than the 500K in Uganda, if Wikipedia is to be believed (which I'm not saying anyone should, but I do know that EO have been established in Uganda since the 1930s by native-led conversions, so that doesn't seem like an outlandish number to me).

whereas ChristianForums is blessed with at least two Coptic members, @Pavel Mosko and @dzheremi who might have heard this story, in which many years ago, a diocesan bishop was unavoidably detained while en route to one of his churches, where he was to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with the Pope of Alexandria. [....]

I have heard this story, though I couldn't tell you who it was in reference to. Could be legendary, could be based on a real historical event -- either way, it teaches a true principle which we definitely live by. No one is above anyone else in such a way as to place themselves outside the common faith and practice, even in a very hierarchical Church like the Coptic Orthodox Church.
 
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prodromos

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As long as you are quoting Cyprian

“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?” (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
St Cyprian was arguing that he was the bishop sitting in that one chair. He was never arguing for the Roman papacy.
 
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The Liturgist

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This thread IS NOT about Peter's primacy. You all can have the last word.
You know the Syriac Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch has a high Petrology, since St. Peter founded the Church in Antioch, and St. Mark the Evangelist, his disciple, founded the Coptic Orthodox Church, the only church they were consistently in communion with (they had a schism with the Armenian Apostolic Church, and the Ethiopic churches were historically an autonomous province of the Coptic Church until the Ethiopian church was granted autocephaly under the martyred Emperor St. Haile Selassie* and the Eritrean church received autocephaly from the Copts in 1994.

This also corresponds with the historic fact that between the Destruction of Jerusalem after the failed Bar Kochba revolt around 130 AD, and the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, there were only three autocephalous Patriarchates in Christianity: Rome, Alexandria and Antioch (in order of precedence, a precedence of honor). When Jerusalem was rebuilt by St. Helena in the 320s, Nicaea naturally restored it those privileges it had had, except in terms of canonical territory the restored Church of Jerusalem is quite small, with Antioch having in antiquity been the Church of Antioch and All Asia (this is why each of the other ancient churches from Asia, including the Churches of Georgia, Armenia, and the East, were led by a Catholicos, since starting with the Church of the East, the understanding was that the Catholicoi even if autocephalous were under the presidency of the Patriarch of Antioch; later after the Nestorian schism, the one church which retained this pattern was the Syriac Orthodox Church, but to avoid confusion with the Catholicos of the Assyrian Church of the East, the Syriac Orthodox wound up calling their equivalent office to the Catholicos of the East the Maphrian (Maphruno in Syriac, a word which basically corresponds to the Greek word Katholikos in meaning).

Since that time, the Armenian church has been divided into four autocephalous entities, two of which span the world and are led by Catholicoi, the Catholicos of Holy Etchmiadzin and All Armenia, who historically ruled the church in the ancient Armenian lands, and the Catholicos of the Great House of Cilicia, who is presently based in Lebanon but historically led the church in the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, which for a brief period of time was one of two Armenian sovereign states that existed with the support of the Byzantine Empire to guard their Eastern frontier against an invasion of the Muslims; the creation of dual worldwide hierarchies under these two Catholicosates was due to the Cold War in which a newly independent Armenia to the dismay of Armenians the world over woke up and found itself gobbled up by the Soviet Union. Separately, the large Armenian populations in Jerusalem and the Byzantine Empire were under Armenian Patriarchs of Jerusalem and Constantinople respecrively, who although the leaders of autocephalous Armenian churches, were still subordinate to the Catholicoi in another instance of topsy-turviness, this time due to the tragedy of the Chalcedonian Schism.**

Due to the vastly greater tragedy of the Turkish Genocide in 1915, while Armenians are now the largest Christian minority in Turkey due to the ethnic cleansing resulting from the population exchange with Greece after the war, which saw the Pontic Greeks deported to Greece despite Asia Minor having been ethnically Greek for most of its history, with only the small population of Phanariot Greeks in Istanbul remaining, the total Armenian population in Turkey under the Armenian Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople is tragically small.

** note that I say the schism was tragic, and not the council; because the Oriental Orthodox, as Pope Benedict XVI determined, are not now and never were Monophysites like Ephesus and indeed had already anathematized Ephesus; what happened was the Oriental Orthodox were accused of Monophysitism and the Chalcedonians were in turn accused of Nestorianism, but the good news is that thanks to the work of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of England, and the negotiations between the Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox and between the Greek and Coptic Orthodox churches of Alexandria, the schism is winding down, with only a few hardliners on either side still accusing the other of heresy, but with the actual churches no longer anathematizing each other. Alas the relations between the Copts and the Assyrians remain fraught.

* who was killed by the Derg Communists for refusing to renounce Christianity and embrace Communism (which would have been a PR coup, as it would have caused the Rastas to become communist, indeed I suspect it was the hope of this happening combined with support from traitors in the Imperial Army which led to the Sovietsky Soyuza getting involved).
 
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The Liturgist

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There aren't too many to know, from what I understand. Orthodoxwiki says there are 300K in Egypt, which is still about double that of the Coptic Catholics (~ 162 K), but fewer than the 500K in Uganda, if Wikipedia is to be believed (which I'm not saying anyone should, but I do know that EO have been established in Uganda since the 1930s by native-led conversions, so that doesn't seem like an outlandish number to me).

My understanding is that the Eastern Orthodox in Uganda are the fruit of evangelism, like the Copts in Zambia (there is an album on Apple Music of the Coptic Orthodox liturgy sung in the indigenous language and traditional musical style by the Zambians), whereas the Alexandrian Greeks in Egypt, whose numbers I had heard were as low as 90,000, are of course descended from the ancient Greeks and Hellenized Egyptians who founded Alexandria during the empire building of Alexander the Great (which also, among other eventual benefits to the Oriental Orthodox led to the formation of the Kochin Jewish community in Kerala, which allowed St. Thomas the Apostle to spread the Gospel to Aramaic speaking communities from Edessa right across Mesopotamia to Seleucia-Cstesiphon and from there, travel by ship to Kerala on the Malabar Coast, where he would be martyred in 53 AD by an infuriated Hindu raja with a javelin.

This unfortunately would not be the end of Hindu persecution of Christians, which in the past few years has re-emerged as a major problem, with some barbaric acts including the rape of an elderly Catholic nun in New Delhi, although fortunately the violence is not on the scale we see in Islamic countries, yet.
 
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Roymond

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Rome indeed persecuted Catholics for the first three centuries. As to the pope, Jesus used words paralleling Isaiah 22, and it was Jesus who gave the keys to the kingdom to Rock (Peter) and none of the other Apostles. Your beef is with Jesus.
No, my beef is with you misrepresenting what those patriarchs and councils said: every single one of them said they were just passing on what was handed down. St. Athanasius didn't make a list, he passed one on -- in other words, according to Athanasius he was just relating a list that existed. The same is true of every single authority put forth as "deciding" the canon.

I've read these sources in the original language and am merely reporting what they say.

And the keys of the kingdom have no relevance here; all that any pope did was to state the same thing: they were passing on what they had received.
 
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