The bible is not pratical

[Bobber]

If 99% of criminals can be caught without lying and deceiving, then why does the government do it all the time? Cussing is a sin as well and often times they cuss to fit in with the criminals. They also might commit sexual immorality, drunkenness, and other sins.

You'll never ever convince me that a cop in an undercover sting operation has to commit sexual immorality to catch a crook! Just because you can site an example where this has been done DOES NOT MEAN it had be. But that's the argument you're trying to make. As for a person lying you say they would have sinned? That which is wrong from a Biblical perspective is that it's purpose is to act as a cover for an evil or wrong one has done. One trying to save another's life is not making a cover for evil.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Was the killing of Women and Children at The Battle at Wounded Knee "Tactical" ?

Imagine standing before God on Judgement Day and trying to justify the killing of children because it was in a "Time of War".

So now it's "any killing". You seem to be sending mixed messages here.

And I have imagined, yet my stance remains exactly the same. Also, there is this one little thing, and even though I still don't feel it's sin, what about those who thought it was and asked for forgiveness, where, in your opinion, will they be on Judgment day?

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

It's all Murder.

It doesn't matter if it was "In War Time" Etc.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It's all Murder.

It doesn't matter if it was "In War Time" Etc.

If you are saying all killing in war is murder, then we have no more to talk about

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

If you are saying all killing in war is murder, then we have no more to talk about

The Lord will Judge Every Person who kills.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I would agree with those who say that if we did things the way the Bible tells us, there wouldn't be any criminals.

 

[Robin Mauro]

So you are co

In order to catch criminals undercover cops have to lie, deceive and often times cuss. They have to sin in order to catch criminals, which means that the bible is useless.

If we did things the way the bible tells, criminals would never get caught.[/
So you are comparing what cops do to God's righteousness?
John the Baptist told the soldier (the cops of his day) to do violence to no man. Every cop will have to stand before God and give an account for their actions one day, just like we all will.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Not

In order to catch criminals undercover cops have to lie, deceive and often times cuss. They have to sin in order to catch criminals, which means that the bible is useless.

If we did things the way the bible tells, criminals would never get caught.

Not sure what happened to my last attempt at a reply so I will try again.
So you are comparing what cops do to God's righteousness?
John the Baptist told the soldier (the cops of his day) to do violence to no man. Every cop will have to stand before God one day, and give an account for every action, just as we all will.

 

[TRVL ONE]

But you found them, which invalidates any attempt to declare an absolute "no deception" rule.

Are you in the FBI? You seem to be supporting lies. I believe if the government gives law enforcement more power with the right checks and balances, they will no longer need to lie

 

[TRVL ONE]

But you found them, which invalidates any attempt to declare an absolute "no deception" rule.

If you are smart enough to know when it is right to deceive, then let's hear it.

 

[TRVL ONE]

You yourself said that you've seen some, and one has been given to you--the Hebrew midwives.

Another is the "three days in the desert" lie God gave to Moses to tell the pharaoh. The point is that God understands and uses tactical deception in combat.

If God tells me to deceive or lie that is one thing, if a person tells me to did it, that is another thing. I believe the devil has laid a trap for all the governments, that in order to protect it's citizens the government must sin. Guards and wardens turning a blind eye to prisoner rape, because polticians don't give law enforcement the right tools and they patch up the mistakes of politicians with sinning.

 

[TRVL ONE]

Indeed God had permitted and even commanded killing in the Old Testament. But I am unaware of God allowing any form of killing or lying in the New Testament. Don't get me wrong, I do believe that governments themselves, killing to defend innocent lives, and lying to save innocent lives are necessary for most human survival in this fallen world. But, it is impossible for me to pretend that they can be carried out without, at least, a drop of sin.​

We are not suppose to only follow the New Testament, all the OT was not done away with.

The bible says all scriptures is God breathed and useful.

 

[TRVL ONE]

You'll never ever convince me that a cop in an undercover sting operation has to commit sexual immorality to catch a crook! Just because you can site an example where this has been done DOES NOT MEAN it had be. But that's the argument you're trying to make. As for a person lying you say they would have sinned? That which is wrong from a Biblical perspective is that it's purpose is to act as a cover for an evil or wrong one has done. One trying to save another's life is not making a cover for evil.

Are you in undercover work and trying to justify it? The devil has deceived all the nations, even America

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

You misread, please see where I included more than just the OT:





Na, I don't work well with twisted "Grace only" teachers, you guys have a habit of teaching your own doctrine, and we'll end up arguing the Grace only thing and never make it back to the point.



I've done it already but it takes a bit of common sense to understand, so....

Anyone who thinks God doesn't have his hand on our laws, well that's up to you...I'm certain he does. Also, I have never seen anyone tried for murder in war unless it's a war crime or huge injustice/mistake.

And you know, it takes very little of that common sense to see if we draft young men and force them into a war situation to where they have to kill or be killed, a fair God is simply not going to hold that against them as sin. And if you know of scripture that cites that exact scenario and calls it sin, please post it, If you do not have that specifically, then don't.

No I read perfectly fine, but the latter half of the statement if speaking about man isn't true as there are no armies of God on earth made up of men that kill other human beings. If speaking of angels and God himself only then God may meet out justice as he sees fit. So again, the Law of Moses is done and nowhere in the Law of Christ do we see an allowance made for men to kill.

Yes saved by grace through faith, justified by works and faith. This is true. But unlike others I can stay on topic, if you'd notice your the one who brought up salvation and not me.

I haven't seen a single verse yet under grace after Christ's death that says we may harm another human being. I've only seen you post things from under the Old testament/covenant which has no bearing on the discussion at hand.

We find in scripture that God's government is spiritual and that the Governments of this world are not his.

Every man makes the choice on their own, nobody is making them pull that trigger and take the life of another man. As John the Baptist told soldiers we are to do harm to no man. And as Paul said we are as sheep to the slaughter, and John again says that we are to love not our lives unto death, then Christ tells us one last time that all they that take up the sword shall perish with the sword which is then confirmed again in Revelation, all of these apply to this exact scenario.

Luke 3:14
14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Romans 8:36
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Matthew 26:51-52
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

There are so many more than these written in the New Testament that prove that to kill or even harm another man is a sin no matter the circumstances. Love worketh no ill to it's neighbor.
Romans 13:
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Here are the rest brother, though I'm still waiting on that verse from the NT under grace that says we are allowed to kill others.
Romans 12:17-21
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.


James 1:19-20
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.


Ephesian 4:26,31-32
26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


1 Peter 3:8-14
8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
13 And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
14 But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;

Matthew 5:7-9
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Matthew 5:38-39
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Matthew 5:44
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

1 Peter 3:9 says,
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
Ephesians 6:15 says,
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

When Paul was struck in the mouth he did not retaliate with violence,
Acts 23:2-3
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.
3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?

Christ also says we are to be as wise as a serpepnt and as harmless as a dove,
Matt 10:16
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Of course this goes against human nature. But Christ followers are to be separate and different than worldly people. They are peaceful, loving, and kind. When a man kills another man he takes not only his life but also that mans chance to repent and be saved. For all who die in sin are damned. This is why Christians can not harm or kill anyone for any reason.

Again brother there is no New Testament scripture that says we can harm another man for any reason, no not one can be found.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No I read perfectly fine, but the latter half of the statement if speaking about man isn't true as there are no armies of God on earth made up of men that kill other human beings.

And you know this how? You should at least know there will be armies to come/in the future where killing will be rampant.

So again, the Law of Moses is done and nowhere in the Law of Christ do we see an allowance made for men to kill.

I spoke to you of common sense already. Do you not know God has his hands on our laws, and our laws do not call killing in war murder?

The rest of your post seems like it was headed in a direction that tells me I need to ask you if you would stand there and turn the other cheek if someone was going to kill your wife and kids, or would you stand against them and fight?

There's a time to be passive and a time to fight with everything we have. Oh, and self defense is not murder either.

 

[RDKirk]

I would agree with those who say that if we did things the way the Bible tells us, there wouldn't be any criminals.

Of course there would be. That's why God gave methods for handling criminals in the Mosaic Law.

Nowhere does it say, "After you've done this a few years, you won't have any more criminals."

 

[RDKirk]

Are you in the FBI? You seem to be supporting lies. I believe if the government gives law enforcement more power with the right checks and balances, they will no longer need to lie

Now, you started this thread with a charge that scripture was not practical and:

If we did things the way the bible tells, criminals would never get caught.

You didn't specify who the "we" was supposed to be, nor did you actually uncover the real point you intended to make.

But what the New Testament does tell us is that God gives worldly nations the authority to use the sword to maintain order in this fallen world. "Use the sword" is the extreme of carnal authority which includes everything less drastic, such as lying. God gives worldly nations the authority to lie, extract taxes, execute criminals, carry out war to maintain an orderly society in this fallen world.

Is that sin? Yes, there is a whole cloud of sin all in that general direction because, "...that's not the way it was in the beginning." It continues to be true that he whose life is by the sword will suffer his death by the sword. Every earthly nation will fall.

But what I notice is that the Holy Spirit and the Body of Christ is able to operate in an orderly society even when it is extremely oppressive. For instance, even during the most extreme Roman oppression against the Church, the Church yet grew to 25% of the population of Rome itself.

Even in the extreme oppression of North Korea, the Body of Christ has grown tenfold in North Korea since the mid 90s. Kim Jong Un has given up trying to eliminate the Church--now he's trying to co-opt it. Even under oppression in China, the church gains 1,000 new members a week, and the Chinese are trying to co-opt the Church now instead of eliminating it.

But in places like South Sudan, where there is no orderly government and chaos reigns, the Church cannot grow or even gain a foothold.

But I would agree that even though God has given worldly governments the authority to use carnal measures up to and including the sword to maintain order, that does not mean members of the Body of Christ need personally participate in it. So earthly government does not mean "we" when "we" means the Body of Christ.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Of course there would be. That's why God gave methods for handling criminals in the Mosaic Law.

Nowhere does it say, "After you've done this a few years, you won't have any more criminals."

Which demonstrates that laws are made for lawless people.

Those who broke the law weren't doing what God told them.

 

[RDKirk]

Which demonstrates that laws are made for lawless people.

Those who broke the law weren't doing what God told them.

It's a fallen world.

It's silly to pretend that it's not a fallen world, or that God does not recognize it's a fallen world.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

It's a fallen world.

That much is true..