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Featured The bible is not pratical

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by TRVL ONE, May 17, 2019.

  1. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    In order to catch criminals undercover cops have to lie, deceive and often times cuss. They have to sin in order to catch criminals, which means that the bible is useless.

    If we did things the way the bible tells, criminals would never get caught.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  2. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    Or... such police work is not biblical.
     
  3. OldWiseGuy

    OldWiseGuy Wake me when it's soup. Supporter

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    If we followed the OT system there would be very little crime.
     
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  4. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    Are you saying you don't want criminals to get caught? How else can it be done without sinning?
     
  5. Dave-W

    Dave-W Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner! Supporter

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    Ever hear of the gift of knowledge? See 1 Corinthians 12
     
  6. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    Just for the sake of discussion, it could be said that the Bible commands us not to lie and deceive our neighbor. Perhaps criminals are not the undercover policeman's neighbor?

    Rahab seems to have been blessed for hiding and lying.

    The Hebrew midwives seem to have been blessed for deceiving and lying.
     
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  7. danielmears

    danielmears Member Supporter

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    Undercover law enforcement officers are playing a roll when they lie, or deceive a criminal to obtain information to convict them. This is to protect the public and possibly save the life of the criminal also. God knows the heart, yes scripture says he searches the heart and tries the reins. When you ride a horse you can try the reins and find out how the horse is on the inside, calm, feeling wild, healthy or not. So, God knows why they may lie or cuss, it does not come from their heart. The ends, protecting the innocent, justifies the means.
     
  8. myst33

    myst33 Well-Known Member

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    No, I am saying you should not lie or deceive to catch a criminal.

    99% of criminals can be caught without it.
     
  9. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    What is desirable in a man is his kindness,
    and it is better to be a poor man than a liar."
    Proverbs 19:22

    No where does it mention a neighbor in this verse.
     
  10. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    The bible says the devil has deceived all the nations. It looks to me that he has deceived every nation to form itself in such a way that government has to sin in order to catch criminals.
     
  11. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    If 99% of criminals can be caught without lying and deceiving, then why does the government do it all the time? Cussing is a sin as well and often times they cuss to fit in with the criminals. They also might commit sexual immorality, drunkenness, and other sins.
     
  12. Sola1517

    Sola1517 Saint-in-Progress (Looking for a Church)

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    So do missionaries sometimes in order to bring people to Christ. The Bible is not there to enforce morality primarily, it is there to make us wise for salvation in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:14-15)
     
  13. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

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    And if the criminals here followed biblical principles they wouldn't be criminals and wouldn't need to be caught.

    That seems extremely practical.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  14. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    Just because they do these things, doesn't make it right. They are not God. Maybe, if the only way to get the gospel into a country is by sinning, maybe it is God's way of saying no. The holy spirit kept Paul out of places.
     
  15. danielmears

    danielmears Member Supporter

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    Hopefully, catching the criminal will help them. I was a Military policeman, Correctional Officer and served as a Deputy Sheriff and I have seen many inmates come to redemption while incarcerated. Cops, normally do not have to lie to catch criminals, the criminal commits a crime, but for the very bad ones they may have to play a role. Of course some cops may not have a good heart, but those usually get weeded out because of their own actions. We all need to act out of love for there is one judge above all..If there is a better way, talk to the people in authority. Thank God for those willing to do the dangerous work.
     
  16. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    It is good that they are willing to sacrifice, but I believe the government often puts them in situations that are not necessary. I know people who do undercover work and the things that they have done to catch criminals is sometimes extremely sinful, such as committing sexual immorality. Of course they will deny that they are even in that type of work.
     
  17. mnphysicist

    mnphysicist Have Courage to Trust God!

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    Paul seems to be pretty clear that the ends do not justify the means in Romans 3.

    And as far as missionaries doing evil to win souls... well, that generally doesn't work out too well over the long haul. I remember having a bird with the Campus Crusade guys over this many decades ago. The light of Jesus eventually illuminates the darkness... and a lot of their so called works were for naught, as you can't build a lasting foundation on sand. Granted, all these years and deconverts later, the say, well those deconverted folks were never Christians in the first place, cause of OSAS... sure.

    The thing is, very little is black and white, most situations are filled with grey.

    Consider the Roman Centurian... who was a man under govt authority, and had to do what his superiors asked. Jesus never told him to quit his job, but rather marveled at the man's great faith. He didn't even tell him to go and sin no more, but rather he told him his servant would be healed. And from what we know about Roman govt practices, it was not exactly on the up and up... and yet Jesus said nothing. Romans 13 can be instructive in this.

    A person can be Christian, a church or ministry can be Christian, but a govt cannot. An individual Christian is under the authority of Jesus words on the Sermon on the mount, where as the same Christian, acting under govt authority as a soldier or police officer could be commanded to do things totally opposite of the sermon on the mount. This is not always an easy thing to reconcile.

    A Christian friend is working to counter international sex trafficking. He see's these little kids in houses or prostitution, and wants to rescue them right now, especially as he thinks of his daughter who is the same age back home. Yet, he also realizes that in doing so, he might be able to save an individual, but the lives of tens or even hundreds would be put at risk. He is a guru at being deceptive, and has saved countless lives over the years... but unlike the Campus Crusade folks, he is acting under the authority of the state. Its grey, its very different... lots of folks cannot do the type of work he is involved with.
     
  18. SPF

    SPF Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 1:15-20 Then the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other was named Puah; and he said, "When you are helping the Hebrew women to give birth and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, then you shall put him to death; but if it is a daughter, then she shall live." But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live. So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, "Why have you done this thing, and let the boys live?" The midwives said to Pharaoh, "Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and give birth before the midwife can get to them." So God was good to the midwives, and the people multiplied, and became very mighty.

    Are you familiar with the above passage? The Hebrew midwives lied and deceived the king of Egypt. Not only does God not say what they did was wrong, but in response to their lying and deceiving, God actually blessed them.

    If lying is as black and white as you seem to be suggesting, how do you reconcile the above passage? How do you think you can relate it to undercover police?

    Can you define cussing?
     
  19. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    I believe if law enforcement was given more power and more resources, they could save even more people and I believe with enough power they could do it without lying. But it would take tons of money and tons of resources, and many greedy people rather spend that money on pleasures instead of protecting people.
     
  20. TRVL ONE

    TRVL ONE Member

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    I've searched the bible for lying and deceiving and I've found very few cases of God approving it. I think it is too hard for anyone to know when God approves of lying and doesn't. So in my opinion it is best not to do it. If law enforcement had more power and all the resources available, maybe they could do it without deception. Maybe the devil has arranged the governments so they have to sin to catch criminals. The bible says the devil has deceived all the nations, that includes America.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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