The Bible Is A Catholic Book

packermann

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2003
1,446
375
71
Northwest Suburbs of Chicago, IL
✟45,845.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Republican
I can honor my friends, that doesn't mean they the authority over me; just as I don't have any authority over them.
I can honor my girlfriend, that doesn't mean she is the authority over me; just as I don't have any authority over her.
I can honor lots of people, in different ways, that doesn't translate to their being an authority over me, or I over them.

Honor =/= authority.

-CryptoLutheran

I think you are using "honor" much too loosely. Sure you respect your girlfriend and other people. But honor goes way beyond that. I doubt you ever say to someone "I honor you". If you did, I think you would get a strange look.

Also, in context of our discussion, it was argued that the bishops honored the pope but did not see him as having authority over them - the implication is that this honor was a one-way street. The pope did not honor the bishops. And the bishops did honor each other as well as the pope. No, they honored only the pope. So how come the bishops say that they honored the pope but did not say they honored everyone else, as you said that you honored lots of people? Obviously they gave a certain unique honor to the pope that they do not give to anyone else so your comparison with honoring lots of people is not valid.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Sola Scrptura has caused thousand of splits within Protestantism, each believing in sola scripture and each thinking that everyone but them are wrong in their interpretations of scripture.
This is apparently but another example of an attack upon Sola Scriptura by a poster who doesn't understand what Sola Scriptura means.

It means that the word of God (the Bible) is the ultimate authority when it comes to determining doctrine. It does not mean that everybody who reads the Bible must or will agree on the meaning of everything there...just as in the Catholic denominations which use custom, legend, theological speculation, etc. under the heading of "Sacred Tradition" have come up with even a greater range of doctrinal diversity.

That's right, no two of the Catholic denominations following what they consider to be Tradition instead of Sola Scriptura read that Tradition the same way or even agree on what IS Tradition.

Almost all Protestant churches, by the way, have the same opinion about what the Bible is. ;)
 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Of course not! But you honor your eldest because he once had authority over you. It was because there was at one time this authority over you that you honor him. But even so, I think it is more that you respect him. If I should ever say to my elder sister that I honored her, I think she would think I was weird.
Nope, it was because he was supposed to be wiser and more knowledgeable than me.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,589
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,180,783.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Of course not! But you honor your eldest because he once had authority over you. It was because there was at one time this authority over you that you honor him.
Not true at all. All you are doing is projecting your beliefs.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: charsan
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,589
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,180,783.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Also, in context of our discussion, it was argued that the bishops honored the pope but did not see him as having authority over them - the implication is that this honor was a one-way street. The pope did not honor the bishops. And the bishops did honor each other as well as the pope. No, they honored only the pope. So how come the bishops say that they honored the pope but did not say they honored everyone else, as you said that you honored lots of people? Obviously they gave a certain unique honor to the pope that they do not give to anyone else so your comparison with honoring lots of people is not valid.
Where on earth are you getting this nonsense?
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,589
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,180,783.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,349
10,603
Georgia
✟911,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Sola Scrptura has caused thousand of splits within Protestantism, each believing in sola scripture and each thinking that everyone but them are wrong in their interpretations of scripture.

Why should the Catholic Church be tolerant of a method that has been proven not to work?

All Protestant reformers began as Catholics fully affirming the primacy of tradition over scripture -- and yet from that system comes all the splits of the major protestant groups from the Catholic church. Question for you is why should the non Catholic Church resort to a method that has been proven not to work and that contradicts scripture itself?

Here we have a prime example of Christ condemning the tradition of the one true nation-church started by God at Sinai with an ordained priesthood and text of scripture... and He condemns their tradition "sola scriptura".

Mark 7:6-13


6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

A clear example condemning man-made-tradition - via the method of "Sola Scriptura" testing
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,349
10,603
Georgia
✟911,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
The Church is Israel, and the Council of Jerusalem does not talk about the Scriptures canon but other councils do.

Romans 2
. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

What are you trying to say?

I am showing the Bible case for your statement that the term "Israel" as used in the NT does not always mean "just literal Israel"
 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Romans 2
. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.



I am showing the Bible case for your statement that the term "Israel" as used in the NT does not always mean "just literal Israel"
I don't understand. What do you think "Israel" means?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,349
10,603
Georgia
✟911,719.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't understand. What do you think "Israel" means?

In the two examples I gave from Romans - Paul uses the term to refer to believers in Christ - those who honor God by obeying His Word and Paul states specifically the term is not merely restricted to Abraham's literal descendants in that context when he says "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;"
 
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
In the two examples I gave from Romans - Paul uses the term to refer to believers in Christ - those who honor God by obeying His Word and Paul states specifically the term is not merely restricted to Abraham's literal descendants in that context when he says "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;"
I am saying that, am I not?
 
Upvote 0

packermann

Junior Member
Nov 30, 2003
1,446
375
71
Northwest Suburbs of Chicago, IL
✟45,845.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Republican
All Protestant reformers began as Catholics fully affirming the primacy of tradition over scripture -- and yet from that system comes all the splits of the major protestant groups from the Catholic church.

That is not how I see it. For the first 1,000 years the Church held together under three principles like three legs in a stool - scripture, tradition, and the magistereum. Except for a few heretical that are no longer with us (Gnostics, Arians, etc) they pretty much stayed together. True the Church split in around 1000 AD in the Catholic Church and the Orthodox churches. That was because Orthodox churches saw only scripture and tradition, which caused division among the Orthodox Churches. But in the West, the Catholic Church for the next 500 years remained unified under scripture, tradition, and the magisterium. The Reformers immediately broke from those those methods of determining the truth - to one one, sola scriptura. And then splits immediately started up like rabbits. If the splits were caused by the Catholic then why did they not happen earlier?

Question for you is why should the non Catholic Church resort to a method that has been proven not to work and that contradicts scripture itself?

That is begging the question. I do not believe that the Church contradicts scripture itself. In fact, I think that Protestants inherently contradict scripture itself. The Reformers preached sola scriptura but without one verse in the NT that teaches sola scriptura, not even the passage you cited in Mark 7. So if the Reformers are right then they would be wrong! If everything must be in the Bible in order to be believed, and that idea of everything must be in the Bible in order to be believed is not in the the Bible, then that idea that everything must be in the Bible in order to be believed should not be believed.

Not only this, but if the Mark 7 passage that you cited taught sola scriptura, or other verses taught sola scripture, then all of Christianity would have to be invalid. The scripture that Jesus and the apostles were referring to was the Jewish scriptures. If they taught sola scriptura then we should all march to the nearest synagogue and convert to Judaism, since Jesus and the apostles would have then taught sola OLD TESTAMENT scriptura.

Mark 7:6-13


6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men—the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

A clear example condemning man-made-tradition - via the method of "Sola Scriptura" testing

Not so clear. Everything they received from Moses was handed down from generation to generation, even the Ten Commandments. Tradition means what was handed down. True, God did literally dropped the Ten Commandments from the sky, but even that was handed down. So even what was written down initially was handed down from generation. They had no printing press. Jesus was not condemning tradition. He was condemning BAD tradition, tradition that came from only mere men versus from men inspired by God.

Here is an example where the NT upholds oral tradition. Matthew 2:23 quotes from the Old Testament prophets, saying "He shall be called a Nazarene", and this was fulfilled by Jesus with His family fleeing to Nazareth. BUT THERE IS A HUGE PROBLEM! There is not one verse in the Old Testament where this verse can be found. Check your Bible concordance! You will not find it! Google this quote. Only the verse in Matthew will show up! I read the Protestant explanations for the absence of this verse in the OT and it is laughable. Check out the Protestant commentaries and see if they make any sense at all. There all say something about Jesus taking a Nasaritic vow. See if that makes sense to you. It does not to me.

It is difficult to get away from the fact that Mathew was meaning that the coming Messiah would live in Nazareth. And if Matthew meant a written verse in the OT then obviously he was wrong or lying! Either way, the New Testament would have errors in it! YIKES! But the Catholic has a simple explanation that still upholds biblical inerrancy. The Word of God was not only written but was passed down orally. The Jews treated this oral teaching as part of the Word of God, and so did Matthew. Matthew 2:23 did not say "This fulfilled what a prophet has written..." but said "This fulfilled what a prophet has SPOKEN...". Matthew quoted something that was within the Jewish oral tradition that the Jews took as coming from God. And Matthew also took it as coming from God. So the quote "He shall be called a Nazarene" was from the good tradition, not the bad tradition - even though it was handed down orally from generation to generation. So Jesus could not have been condemn all oral tradition, but only tradition that originated from men and not from God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,589
12,122
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,180,783.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
But in the West, the Catholic Church for the next 500 years remained unified under scripture, tradition, and the magisterium.
Oh really?
What do you call what your church went through from 1378 to 1417?
There were also competing popes as a result of the Council of Basel from 1439 to 1449.
And then there is that little issue of the Avignon Papacy.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,401
15,493
✟1,108,968.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Reformers took books out of the Bible - seven of the them, even though those seven books were always in the Bible since the Bible was compile until the Reformation. They took it out because in 2 Maccadees had an incident where they found that the dead Israelite soldiers had idols on their persons. This showed that the Jews believed you can pray for those who already died. This embarrassed the Reformers so they took them out of the Bible.
They took out the Maccabees and others
because they are not in the Hebrew Bible.
Biblical literature - Old Testament canon, texts, and versions
Check out the Protestant commentaries and see if they make any sense at all. There all say something about Jesus taking a Nasaritic vow. See if that makes sense to you. It does not to me.
Try John Gill's.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,451
26,881
Pacific Northwest
✟731,998.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
They took it out because in 2 Maccadees had an incident where they found that the dead Israelite soldiers had idols on their persons. This showed that the Jews believed you can pray for those who already died. This embarrassed the Reformers so they took them out of the Bible.

That's odd, because Martin Luther--and Lutherans--never took issue with prayers for the dead. But rather freely admit that prayers for the dead are the most ancient practice of the Church, and also biblical, for St. Paul prays for the departed Onesiphorous in 2 Timothy 1:18.

However, further, Lutherans regard the question of the Deuterocanonicals to be an open one. A matter left unresolved. That is, Luther's opinions over the Deuterocanonicals, and thus his exclusion of them from the Canon proper, is not the position of the Lutheran churches. We simply do not have a position. And the only real way the issue could be settled would be by a truly ecumenical council, and since we do not believe there has been an ecumenical council since the Second Council of Nicea which condemned the heresy of the Iconoclasts, the issue remains unresolved.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0