The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Clare73 said:
Does "agony" qualify (Luke 16:24, NIV)?
Different book
So?

Same gospel--of Jesus, same person speaking--Jesus, on same subject--fire of torment after death (Mark 9:47-48).
"Dealing radically with their sin" indicates those who are unrepentant.
You might check the context, Mark 9:43-48.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,125
9,946
The Void!
✟1,126,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So?

Same gospel--of Jesus, same person speaking--Jesus, on same subject--fire of torment after death (Mark 9:47-48).
You might check the context, Mark 9:43-48.

Same Gehenna, too. But, what is "Gehenna"??
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You do realize that by your relying upon this kind of interpretive rationale, to remain consistent, you'll ALSO need to insist that both DEATH and HADES are literal, sentient, pain feelling beings who, likewise, will suffer eternal torment, all in the face of what is admittedly a highly, highly symbolic book (i.e. Revelation).

So, yeah. I don't think your position holds water.

This assertion of yours is essentially an argument from silence; moreover, it does nothing to explain to us what a 'human spirit' is, which we'd need to know in a clear and distinct way via a fuller exposition from the New Testament writers, an exposition which they don't generally give. So, let's not pretend that they do.

There’s no big mystery there - hell is the prison cell that the damned are held in before judgment, and they are indeed cast into the lake, and there is a death angel, who is also cast into the lake - thus you’ve not refuted my biblical position at all.

Next.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Doesn't matter! It wasn't his PLAN and INTENT that they go there. His plan and INTENT was that NONE should perish but that ALL should come to repentance. 2 Pt 3:9 If many are choosing not to they are going against HIS PLAN. You need to focus on just what his plan, desire and INTENT was and not be casting aspersions upon the Creator.
It doesn't matter who created hell?
Do you think God is up in heaven wringing his hands wondering why humans are choosing to go there? Is he not sovereign and omniscient? As if he didn't know and couldn't control what happened?

Saint Steven said:
Seriously?

Who created hell?
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Stating the obvious now? The point, if I must restate, is that Paul was using pas=all, to present
the argument that Messiah was for all nations, not just Jews, as had been clearly stated by
Isaiah and others. You are translating the message of reconciliation to salvation. Someone either
accepts the message and enters into a living relationship with the Lord by Faith, or rejects and
forfeits the Gift of Eternal Life.
Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In response #57, I provided around 100 scriptures which I believe show that the Bible is about knowing who God is(know that I am the Lord). In response #59 You ignored that evidence and asked
You seem to be alone in your opinion. Join the club. - lol
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You said, "a person's view of the final judgement defines their view of what the Bible is about." Since this statement is the foundation of your OP, I have asked you to justify it from scripture.
That's a ridiculous request. I'm pretty sure the writers of scripture didn't anticipate my forum topic. - lol
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
BTW, eye for an eye simply means "let punishment befit the crime", a principle that is occasionally
adhered to in most societies, in particular ones that have been influenced my Mosaic Law.
Explain why eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape fits "let punishment befit the crime". Thanks.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'll take #4. The plan to redeem whosever will.
Offered for all, but only applicable to those who accept the offer.
That is already #1 or #2 on the list. What happens to those who refuse? (incinerated, right?)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And it’s still only APPLIED to those who believe, receive, and repent, so you can’t escape the obvious fact that you ignore scriptures that you don’t like to reach a universalist conclusion.

Shalom.
I'm not saying salvation comes without receiving it.

You blame me for ignoring scriptures when you do the same thing with mine.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,125
9,946
The Void!
✟1,126,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There’s no big mystery there - hell is the prison cell that the damned are held in before judgment, and they are indeed cast into the lake, and there is a death angel, who is also cast into the lake - thus you’ve not refuted my biblical position at all.

Next.

Yeah. Let's not argue this here. Besides, this thread isn't apparently about which view of Hell is correct. It's about the implication it has for the idea of "Salvation of All" which both you and I probably have similar ideas about. So, truce. :cool:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, that's annihilation. Cast out is how Jesus describes it.
Not #4 though. Thanks.

Saint Steven said:
That is already #1 or #2 on the list. What happens to those who refuse? (incinerated, right?)
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Explain why eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape fits "let punishment befit the crime". Thanks.
Missed the point. Not about taking an eye or a tooth, but justice. You are determined to use rote postings against ECT, which has never been my position. If you can't find a better post to use to
launch your senseless rhetoric, please feel free it ignore my posts.
 
Upvote 0

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Explain why eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape fits "let punishment befit the crime". Thanks.
Again, my post had nothing to due with ECT, if you can't keep up, stop trying to maintain this
senseless dialog.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Bible never once says God tortures people in hell. Scripture says hell is a place of torment but one can suffer torment and never be tortured. The person waiting for the outcome of cancer tests may suffer torment as they wait, gnawed by worry, panicked by fear of disease, but they are not being tortured. No one is standing beside them with a hot poker, jabbing them in the stomach with it, or stretching them painfully on a rack 'til the results of the test are revealed.

God is not in hell, working as a torturer of the unrepentant wicked, hooded and laughing, as He cruelly and painfully abuses them. His utter absence from hell is much of what makes it so terrible. Hell is a torment because God is not there; hell is a torment because the lost sinner must live with him/herself for all of eternity; hell is a torment because they must endure alone the consequences of their choices for all of eternity.

The use of the term "torture" is a purely emotional and rhetorical maneuver, caricaturing the view such a term is intended to characterize and becoming a Strawman in the process.
This more closely aligns with Ultimate Redemption. (#3)

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Again, my post had nothing to due with ECT, if you can't keep up, stop trying to maintain this
senseless dialog.
You keep saying goodbye and then keep coming back.
And you called me disingenuous.
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
That the damned are conscious day and night forever in the lake of fire is biblical fact.

Matthew 25:46 speaks of "everlasting punishment" but, as a number of Bible scholars have observed, punishment that is not experienced is not punishment. Annihilation, which ends conscious existence, then, avoids punishment, which requires consciousness. One cannot punish a rock, or a broom, or a stump; one can only punish what is conscious, sentient and self-aware.

It’s also fact that soul and body are destroyed in hell, and a fact that the spirit is all that’s left of our triune being to exist in the lake of fire.

"Destroyed" doesn't always mean "eradicated" in Scripture, just as "death" doesn't always mean the total end of the existence of a living thing. Vine's Bible Expository Dictionary notes of "apollumi" (Greek term rendered "destroy" in Matthew 10:28):

"The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wineskins (Luke 5:37); of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution (Luke 15:4, 6) etc.; the lost son (Luke 15:24); of the perishing of food (John 6:27); of gold (1 Peter 1:7). So of persons..." (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, pg. 302)

We read in the NT of physically dead people who speak, see and hear, and have a discernible, apparently material form that can suffer pain and be clothed. (Luke 16:23-24; Matthew 17:2-3; Revelation 6:9-11) In light of this, and the use of "apollumi" in the NT as explained above, it is difficult to think that Matthew 10:28 means that only an immaterial spirit being will suffer in hell.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DragonFox91
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mr. M

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2020
8,129
3,211
Prescott, Az
✟37,027.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
You keep saying goodbye and then keep coming back.
And you called me disingenuous.
I did no such thing. I just tried to get an actual respond to my posts. Instead, you just keep posting
rote responses against eternal torments, which I have not supported. All of my posts have been
honest. If you would rather I leave your thread than attempt an honest response, as you wish.
bye.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0