The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Exactly. If the damnationists are correct, God created a whole bunch of folks and a small percentage of those are redeemed. That's not what anyone would consider a success. But, it assumes that God's sovereignty is ultimately subjective to the human will. God wishes all could be saved, but just can't get it done.
The idea that the 1st Adam is the source of universal condemnation, but the 2nd Adam is limited just highlights how much power humans, or one human, has. Strange.

Yeah, under this framework, Satan comes out with more chess pieces than God.
And yet it is the authoritative teaching of Jesus (John 3:18, John 3:36) and the apostle
(Romans 5:18) who received his understanding from Jesus Christ personally, in the third heaven
(2 Corinthians 12:1-5).

We get to choose whether to believe them or not, and
we all get to bear the consequences of our choices.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: chad kincham
Upvote 0

public hermit

social troglodyte
Supporter
Aug 20, 2019
10,972
12,055
East Coast
✟830,837.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
We get to choose whether to believe them or not, and
we all bear the consequences of our choices.

Do we all bear the consequences of our choices? The saved don't. Jesus took those on himself.

Do we get to choose to believe? Isn't faith itself a gift of grace, lest anyone should boast?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And where in the bible do you get this bit of theology? It sounds to me like you're drawing from ancient Greek Philosophy and then imputing it to the Scriptures. In essence, I think the idea that human beings have some kind of indestructible spirit is a bit Greek rather than Jewish in nature, theologically speaking, and not something we should be easily assuming.

The Bible is clear that we are a triune being, made up of soul, spirit, and body.

And Jesus said soul and boy are destroyed in hell, leaving the spirit.

And scripture is clear that those in the lake of fire have no rest day or night, proving a continuing existence there - obviously it the spirit that is conscious there for eternity.

And it’s obvious from scripture that since Godat creation had no physical body to make an image of when He made us, that the image of God we are made of, must be that of an eternal spirit.

Everything above is directly from scripture or is common-sense inference from scripture - Greek philosophy nor anything else is involved.

Shalom.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
What do you like best about hell?
"Interesting" question.
Ranks right up there with "Hath God said?" (Genesis 3:1)

So divine truth for you is determined by what you like and dislike. . .hmmmm.

What could possibly go wrong with that in understanding the divine plan?
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do we all bear the consequences of our choices? The saved don't. Jesus took those on himself.

Do we get to choose to believe? Isn't faith itself a gift of grace, lest anyone should boast?

Faith comes by hearing Gods word, Romans 10:17, but as Stephen said before being martyred for saying it, the reason that the Jews, called Gods elect nation, whom Jesus came for, rejected and killed the prophets God sent them, and rejected and killed their own Messiah and savior Jesus, is because they resist the Holy Spirit.

Just being given faith doesn’t save us, we have the choice to either reject Jesus, as His own whom He came for did in John 1:11, or to follow the drawing of the Holy Spirit and receive Him, and become a child of God, per John 1:12.

Shalom.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
... sounds like Greek to me.

The NT was written in Greek, but everything I wrote is either specifically in the Bible, or is inferred from scripture, TYVM.

Jesus said soul and body are destroyed in hell, obviously leaving the spirit, since scripture says we consist of body, soul and spirit.

Therefore its the spirit of the damned angels and humans that exist forever in the lake of fire having no rest day or night - and angels are comprised solely of spirit BTW.

Shalom.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? That's the question,. isn't it? So then if God does something that by any human standard is grossly unjust, must we say it's just because it's God doing it? I'm not buying it. If we're told that God is going to do something that's egregiously unjust, as well as cruel, merciless, and utterly out of character with what He's revealed of Himself by dwelling amongst us and dying a ghastly death Himself, then I have to conclude that what we're being told is wrong. Fortunately, the Bible doesn't support that idea anyway,
But Jesus does in the Bible (Mark 9:47-48).
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
More like "Keep smoking and I'll torture you for as long as you live."
Heh, heh. . .the old "deflect and blame someone else for the consequences of my choices" game.

The responsible man understands: More like "Your own decision is what tortures you for as long as you live."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Do we all bear the consequences of our choices? The saved don't. Jesus took those on himself.
They bear the consequences of believing in Jesus Christ.
Do we get to choose to believe? Isn't faith itself a gift of grace, lest anyone should boast?
No one does so without choosing to do so.
Isn't faith itself a gift of grace, lest anyone should boast?
Salvation is the gift of Ephesians 2:8 "not from yourselves," "through faith. . .not by works."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Nope, the atonement was for everyone. Unless you are accusing Jesus of an insufficient payment.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

And it’s still only APPLIED to those who believe, receive, and repent, so you can’t escape the obvious fact that you ignore scriptures that you don’t like to reach a universalist conclusion.

Shalom.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,125
9,946
The Void!
✟1,126,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The Bible is clear that we are a triune being, made up of soul, spirit, and body.

And Jesus said soul and boy are destroyed in hell, leaving the spirit.

And scripture is clear that those in the lake of fire have no rest day or night, proving a continuing existence there - obviously it the spirit that is conscious there for eternity.

And it’s obvious from scripture that since Godat creation had no physical body to make an image of when He made us, that the image of God we are made of, must be that of an eternal spirit.

Everything above is directly from scripture or is common-sense inference from scripture - Greek philosophy nor anything else is involved.

Shalom.

No, it's not really "common sense," and thus far, I'm not seeing your position as compelling. From what I'm seeing and what I understand about Jewish theology, you're more or less jumping to the conclusion by attempting to deduce some remaining principle that isn't coming through a valid or sound deduction.

It's NOT something we can just assume that since Jesus says "God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" means that the spirit still remains; not only this, but simply by reading this comment from Jesus in no way tells us anything about what a "human spirit" is.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,125
9,946
The Void!
✟1,126,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The NT was written in Greek, but everything I wrote is either specifically in the Bible, or is inferred from scripture, TYVM.
No, it's not.

Jesus said soul and body are destroyed in hell, obviously leaving the spirit, since scripture says we consist of body, soul and spirit.
I think you need to rethink this.

Therefore its the spirit of the damned angels and humans that exist forever in the lake of fire having no rest day or night - and angels are comprised solely of spirit BTW.
Nope. You're jumping to conclusions.
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The Bible never once says God tortures people in hell. Scripture says hell is a place of torment but one can suffer torment and never be tortured. The person waiting for the outcome of cancer tests may suffer torment as they wait, gnawed by worry, panicked by fear of disease, but they are not being tortured. No one is standing beside them with a hot poker, jabbing them in the stomach with it, or stretching them painfully on a rack 'til the results of the test are revealed.

God is not in hell, working as a torturer of the unrepentant wicked, hooded and laughing, as He cruelly and painfully abuses them. His utter absence from hell is much of what makes it so terrible. Hell is a torment because God is not there; hell is a torment because the lost sinner must live with him/herself for all of eternity; hell is a torment because they must endure alone the consequences of their choices for all of eternity.

The use of the term "torture" is a purely emotional and rhetorical maneuver, caricaturing the view such a term is intended to characterize and becoming a Strawman in the process.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, it's not really "common sense," and thus far, I'm not seeing your position as compelling. From what I'm seeing and what I understand about Jewish theology, you're more or less jumping to the conclusion by attempting to deduce some remaining principle that isn't coming through a valid or sound deduction.

It's NOT something we can just assume that since Jesus says "God can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" means that the spirit still remains; not only this, but simply by reading this comment from Jesus in no way tells us anything about what a "human spirit" is.

That the damned are conscious day and night forever in the lake of fire is biblical fact.

It’s also fact that soul and body are destroyed in hell, and a fact that the spirit is all that’s left of our triune being to exist in the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,125
9,946
The Void!
✟1,126,163.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That the damned are conscious day and night forever in the lake of fire is biblical fact.
You do realize that by your relying upon this kind of interpretive rationale, to remain consistent, you'll ALSO need to insist that both DEATH and HADES are literal, sentient, pain feelling beings who, likewise, will suffer eternal torment, all in the face of what is admittedly a highly, highly symbolic book (i.e. Revelation).

So, yeah. I don't think your position holds water.

It’s also fact that soul and body are destroyed in hell, and a fact that the spirit is all that’s left of our triune being to exist in the lake of fire.
This assertion of yours is essentially an argument from silence; moreover, it does nothing to explain to us what a 'human spirit' is, which we'd need to know in a clear and distinct way via a fuller exposition from the New Testament writers, an exposition which they don't generally give. So, let's not pretend that they do.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Ceallaigh

Veritas Vos Liberabit
Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
18,758
9,860
The Keep
✟571,617.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
C'mon, guy. . .you can do better than that, I've seen your brain at work. Stop futzing around.

Does "agony" qualify (Luke 16:24, NIV)?

Different book and juvenile snark. Are you trying to build credibility with that routine?

Yep. . .the fire of refining, in dealing radically with their sin (cut it off, pluck it out) to avoid the unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43-49).
Too late for gain in the unquenchable fire.

"Dealing radically with their sin" indicates those who are unrepentant. But then again, the verse says "Everyone". Maybe you need to think it through some more.

Or you can just keep repeating yourself.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GOD Shines Forth!

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 6, 2019
2,615
2,061
United States
✟355,297.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
IMO, only the redeemed are given eternal life. Everyone else ceases to exist (or ever have existed). The wages of sin is death, not eternal life under torture.

I tend to lean towards annihilation, after judgment. But I accept eternal torture if God deems it so. This is is His universe, not mine, and I cannot see all the things He sees.

"Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."—Romans 3, Psalm 51
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0