The bible does not say "give, give, give"

[Billy Evmur]

I says "Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall be put into your lap, for the measure you give will be the measure you get back"

The church needs to start preaching the WHOLE word of God...the poor need to hear the WHOLE counsel of God...not what you in your spiritual grandeur deem is right for people to hear.

Paul teaches the same thing.

...he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly and he who sows bountifully will also reap abundantly, each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion for God loves the cheerful giver.

And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance so that you will always have enough of everything and may provide abundance for every good work. As it is written
"He scatters abroad He gives to the poor His righteousness endures forever"

He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way for great generosity which through us will produce thanksgiving unto God.

I know it grieves many in the church to read these things, but you need to learn...God LOVES to bless and prosper His people. Poverty is a curse, only a Catholic would believe in a vow of poverty....Francis Assisi took his vow of poverty as a protest against the lavishness of Rome...he really is the first protestant.

But God never changes, His will for mankind is shown in Eden, this message of prosperity is TRANSFORMING Africa....isn't time it transformed the poor among us in the west?

With prosperity comes persecution.

 

[dhh712]

I says "Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall be put into your lap, for the measure you give will be the measure you get back"

The church needs to start preaching the WHOLE word of God...the poor need to hear the WHOLE counsel of God...not what you in your spiritual grandeur deem is right for people to hear.

Paul teaches the same thing.

...he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly and he who sows bountifully will also reap abundantly, each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion for God loves the cheerful giver.

And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance so that you will always have enough of everything and may provide abundance for every good work. As it is written
"He scatters abroad He gives to the poor His righteousness endures forever"

He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way for great generosity which through us will produce thanksgiving unto God.

I know it grieves many in the church to read these things, but you need to learn...God LOVES to bless and prosper His people. Poverty is a curse, only a Catholic would believe in a vow of poverty....Francis Assisi took his vow of poverty as a protest against the lavishness of Rome...he really is the first protestant.

But God never changes, His will for mankind is shown in Eden, this message of prosperity is TRANSFORMING Africa....isn't time it transformed the poor among us in the west?

With prosperity comes persecution.

In a perfect world without sin, our giving would result in our prosperity in material wealth as well as spiritual. But then we wouldn't need to give really if there were no sin. So basically what you're saying is all good only you need to take into account how there's sin in the world still.

With sin within us amongst us and the curse of God upon this world, you shouldn't expect your giving to result all the time in temporal blessings. That's like making out God to be some genie that if you do a certain thing you get certain results.

Your giving should come from how God loved you first as an enemy and now you love him. It should come from how you understand that in no way you deserve the riches God has bestowed upon you, so you want to distribute some of what you have to your lesser endowed brethren what God, who is the ultimate owner of what you have, has given you.

When you give you should not expect anything from God (as far as material comforts go) and only be grateful should he continue in his mercy toward you. To state that giving results in increased temporal prosperity for the giver is a slanderous heresy and has probably helped more than a few people who wanted to believe in God to give up on it when their giving didn't result in what they were taught to believe God would do for them.

 

[RaymondG]

We can't read these verses in church. People would call it a "prosperity gospel" and then say "God is not a slot machine."

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I says "Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall be put into your lap, for the measure you give will be the measure you get back"

The church needs to start preaching the WHOLE word of God...the poor need to hear the WHOLE counsel of God...not what you in your spiritual grandeur deem is right for people to hear.

Paul teaches the same thing.

...he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly and he who sows bountifully will also reap abundantly, each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion for God loves the cheerful giver.

And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance so that you will always have enough of everything and may provide abundance for every good work. As it is written
"He scatters abroad He gives to the poor His righteousness endures forever"

He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way for great generosity which through us will produce thanksgiving unto God.

I know it grieves many in the church to read these things, but you need to learn...God LOVES to bless and prosper His people. Poverty is a curse, only a Catholic would believe in a vow of poverty....Francis Assisi took his vow of poverty as a protest against the lavishness of Rome...he really is the first protestant.

But God never changes, His will for mankind is shown in Eden, this message of prosperity is TRANSFORMING Africa....isn't time it transformed the poor among us in the west?

With prosperity comes persecution.

Look at all the Biblical examples. Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, James, Matthew, Stephen, the widow with the two mites, the prophets, Lazarus (of the rich man and lazarus), etc.

Which one was monetarily-wealthy in this world? The message of prosperity does "transform" some of the poor in the west, too: They give $2000 to an evangelist who claims God will free them of their debt and they end up $2000 poorer for their bad choice to listen to another's false representation of the real Gospel of Jesus Christ.

How does God get "those who choose to worship Him in spirit and truth" if people are coming to Him expecting to get rich because they did? But, what if chasing after Him costs you everything and you still chase after Him? Wow! And that sounds like when Jesus said "But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.…" (Matt 16:23-25)

God can and does make some wealthy for His reasons. But, it is very dangerous to assume that those who have correct understanding will be prosperous by this world's definitions. It seems it matters more to God what you do with what He gives (parable of the talents).

 

[Abaxvahl]

But God never changes, His will for mankind is shown in Eden, this message of prosperity is TRANSFORMING Africa....isn't time it transformed the poor among us in the west?

And we completely rejected it. Poverty and money seeking (for the sake of anything, especially thinking it means you're "blessed") is an evil, and leads to attachments (love of things that prevent love of God).

 

[Chinchilla]

I says "Give and it shall be given you again, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over shall be put into your lap, for the measure you give will be the measure you get back"

The church needs to start preaching the WHOLE word of God...the poor need to hear the WHOLE counsel of God...not what you in your spiritual grandeur deem is right for people to hear.

Paul teaches the same thing.

...he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly and he who sows bountifully will also reap abundantly, each one must do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion for God loves the cheerful giver.

And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance so that you will always have enough of everything and may provide abundance for every good work. As it is written
"He scatters abroad He gives to the poor His righteousness endures forever"

He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will multiply your resources and increase the harvest of your righteousness. You will be enriched in every way for great generosity which through us will produce thanksgiving unto God.

I know it grieves many in the church to read these things, but you need to learn...God LOVES to bless and prosper His people. Poverty is a curse, only a Catholic would believe in a vow of poverty....Francis Assisi took his vow of poverty as a protest against the lavishness of Rome...he really is the first protestant.

But God never changes, His will for mankind is shown in Eden, this message of prosperity is TRANSFORMING Africa....isn't time it transformed the poor among us in the west?

With prosperity comes persecution.

What if somebody gave for example 10% but not cheerfully . I bet most people who tithe aren't happy about it .

 

[Billy Evmur]

In a perfect world without sin, our giving would result in our prosperity in material wealth as well as spiritual. But then we wouldn't need to give really if there were no sin. So basically what you're saying is all good only you need to take into account how there's sin in the world still.

With sin within us amongst us and the curse of God upon this world, you shouldn't expect your giving to result all the time in temporal blessings. That's like making out God to be some genie that if you do a certain thing you get certain results.

Your giving should come from how God loved you first as an enemy and now you love him. It should come from how you understand that in no way you deserve the riches God has bestowed upon you, so you want to distribute some of what you have to your lesser endowed brethren what God, who is the ultimate owner of what you have, has given you.

When you give you should not expect anything from God (as far as material comforts go) and only be grateful should he continue in his mercy toward you. To state that giving results in increased temporal prosperity for the giver is a slanderous heresy and has probably helped more than a few people who wanted to believe in God to give up on it when their giving didn't result in what they were taught to believe God would do for them.

I was not quoting any televangelist, nor supporting any who appeal for funds publicly, I think it is wrong.

But plenty [just about everyone] is asking for donations these days....even Christian Forums, we know that good well presented gospel ministry costs money, and who would deny that Christian Forums is a precious ministry? yet IF any are going to ask for support they ought tteach the WHOLE truth regarding giving and receiving.

I agree with what you say.

But even elementary things need to be taught us when we first become Christians and we continue to learn over the years...but let's teach it right.

Nobody would tell the farmer to sow his seed but expect no harvest, yet the church does teach by and large to give without expecting a blessing. That is false.

It makes giving a real bugbear and burden for poor folks when it ought to be joyful...notwithstanding it is usually poor folks who do give. But in order to RECIEVE anything from God you have to BELIEVE what you want is from Him...some people believe it is wrong to ask God for money.

 

[Billy Evmur]

What if somebody gave for example 10% but not cheerfully . I bet most people who tithe aren't happy about it .

Paul covers it.

Let each one put aside each week what he has decided [I think Paul wanted more than 10%] not out of constraint

But the way things are in many churches poor old Pastor does have to beat the drum...that's because they don't teach the joyfulness of giving and receiving...just the duty and burden of giving.

 

[Billy Evmur]

And we completely rejected it. Poverty and money seeking (for the sake of anything, especially thinking it means you're "blessed") is an evil, and leads to attachments (love of things that prevent love of God).

You are still rejecting it

The devil does not own the wealth of this planet, he usurped it, not from God but from man. We are meant to have it for God's glory, for His purposes. The devil uses wealth for destruction and wickedness.

Money is a secondary thing. God's provision comes in different ways, but if you need money you ought to have it, and instead of going about getting it by getting into debts you should ask God for it.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The devil does not own the wealth of this planet, he usurped it, not from God but from man. We are meant to have it for God's glory, for His purposes. The devil uses wealth for destruction and wickedness.

Money is a secondary thing. God's provision comes in different ways, but if you need money you ought to have it, and instead of going about getting it by getting into debts you should ask God for it.

 

[amariselle]

We can't read these verses in church. People would call it a "prosperity gospel" and then say "God is not a slot machine."

The “Prosperity Gospel” is a lie. God has not promised us earthly wealth and riches in this life. Quite the opposite actually. We, like Paul, should learn to be content with what we have, be it little or much. We have also been told by Jesus that the world will “hate” us as it first hated Him.

And we are to store up treasures in Heaven, not on earth. All of this will one day pass away.

 

[Chinchilla]

Paul covers it.

Let each one put aside each week what he has decided [I think Paul wanted more than 10%] not out of constraint

But the way things are in many churches poor old Pastor does have to beat the drum...that's because they don't teach the joyfulness of giving and receiving...just the duty and burden of giving.

well if they use the money not for ministry but for fancy buildings and useless stuff then I can see why

 

[amariselle]

I was not quoting any televangelist, nor supporting any who appeal for funds publicly, I think it is wrong.

But plenty [just about everyone] is asking for donations these days....even Christian Forums, we know that good well presented gospel ministry costs money, and who would deny that Christian Forums is a precious ministry? yet IF any are going to ask for support they ought tteach the WHOLE truth regarding giving and receiving.

I agree with what you say.

But even elementary things need to be taught us when we first become Christians and we continue to learn over the years...but let's teach it right.

Nobody would tell the farmer to sow his seed but expect no harvest, yet the church does teach by and large to give without expecting a blessing. That is false.

It makes giving a real bugbear and burden for poor folks when it ought to be joyful...notwithstanding it is usually poor folks who do give. But in order to RECIEVE anything from God you have to BELIEVE what you want is from Him...some people believe it is wrong to ask God for money.

Asking for our “daily bread” is not wrong, asking God or expecting Him to grant us earthly health, wealth and prosperity in return for “sowing (financial) seeds” is entirely unBiblical and a spiritually abusive tactic many “ministers” employ in making merchandise of people for their own selfish gain.

 

[amariselle]

You are still rejecting it

The devil does not own the wealth of this planet, he usurped it, not from God but from man. We are meant to have it for God's glory, for His purposes. The devil uses wealth for destruction and wickedness.

Money is a secondary thing. God's provision comes in different ways, but if you need money you ought to have it, and instead of going about getting it by getting into debts you should ask God for it.

Where is this written? Sounds more like an NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) “great endtimes wealth transfer” claim to me. Jesus didn’t concern Himself with money (“give to Caesar what is Caesar’s”) nor do I recall any Scripture detailing how the foundational Apostles taught that the wealth and prosperity of this world was to be sought after and “taken back” from Satan. On the contrary, the Early Church understood that this world and all its prosperity and wealth will one day pass away and come to nothing.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Look at all the Biblical examples. Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, James, Matthew, Stephen, the widow with the two mites, the prophets, Lazarus (of the rich man and lazarus), etc.

Which one was monetarily-wealthy in this world? The message of prosperity does "transform" some of the poor in the west, too: They give $2000 to an evangelist who claims God will free them of their debt and they end up $2000 poorer for their bad choice to listen to another's false representation of the real Gospel of Jesus Christ.

How does God get "those who choose to worship Him in spirit and truth" if people are coming to Him expecting to get rich because they did? But, what if chasing after Him costs you everything and you still chase after Him? Wow! And that sounds like when Jesus said "But Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me. For you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.…" (Matt 16:23-25)

God can and does make some wealthy for His reasons. But, it is very dangerous to assume that those who have correct understanding will be prosperous by this world's definitions. It seems it matters more to God what you do with what He gives (parable of the talents).

And we are to store up treasures in Heaven, not on earth. All of this will one day pass away.[/QUOTE]

Jesus gave the correct teaching...never mind the televangelist.

Deny yourself, deny your human wisdom, go by God's word even if it is a cross for people will persecute you.

The teaching of the Lord is Give and it shall be given you again...good measure.

Our treasure is with God in heaven.

In the first days of the church people sold lands and property and laid it at the apostle's feet they had to appoint Stephen to manage it.

 

[amariselle]

Jesus gave the correct teaching...never mind the televangelist.

Deny yourself, deny your human wisdom, go by God's word even if it is a cross for people will persecute you.

The teaching of the Lord is Give and it shall be given you again...good measure.

Our treasure is with God in heaven.

In the first days of the church people sold lands and property and laid it at the apostle's feet they had to appoint Stephen to manage it.

And? How does that support earthly health, wealth and prosperity in return for “sowing a financial seed offering”?

 

[RaymondG]

The “Prosperity Gospel” is a lie. God has not promised us earthly wealth and riches in this life. Quite the opposite actually. We, like Paul, should learn to be content with what we have, be it little or much. We have also been told by Jesus that the world will “hate” us as it first hated Him.

And we are to store up treasures in Heaven, not on earth. All of this will one day pass away.

Is this why those verses should not be read in church? They sound to much like the prosperity gospel?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Where is this written? Sounds more like an NAR (New Apostolic Reformation) “great endtimes wealth transfer” claim to me. Jesus didn’t concern Himself with money (“give to Caesar what is Caesar’s”) nor do I recall any Scripture detailing how the foundational Apostles taught that the wealth and prosperity of this world was to be sought after and “taken back” from Satan. On the contrary, the Early Church understood that this world and all its prosperity and wealth will one day pass away and come to nothing.

But they did didn't they, they sold land and property and laid it at the apostle's feet. Jesus DID concern Himself with money when He had to...to pay tax and He also appointed Judas as treasurer, probably He didn't appoint him, Judas probably made himself treasurer...but they had money.

When they needed to catch fish to live on He commanded the draught of fishes their boats began to sink under the load...that is money...what was He tempting them with evil?

When the people were hungry He multiplied the loaves and fishes, if He needed boat He got boat, if He needed donkey He got donkey...see our provision is in heaven, abundant provision...Christians ought not be on welfare or in debt up to their eyeballs...NOW THAT is slavery to money...money is your master if you are in that situation.

 

[Billy Evmur]

And? How does that support earthly health, wealth and prosperity in return for “sowing a financial seed offering”?

Sow steadily, reap steadily

How can you go wrong if you follow Paul?
each week put aside what you have decided to give so that it is not given out of constraint, God loves the cheerful giver.

He that soweth sparingly will also reap sparingly, he that soweth bountifully will also reap bountifully

Isn't that simple?

 

[Billy Evmur]

Asking for our “daily bread” is not wrong, asking God or expecting Him to grant us earthly health, wealth and prosperity in return for “sowing (financial) seeds” is entirely unBiblical and a spiritually abusive tactic many “ministers” employ in making merchandise of people for their own selfish gain.

So nobody asked Christ for health...have you read the gospels? DAILY bread, every day...every time you need you can ask.

I bet YOUR Pastor asks for money...I bet he puts the squeeze on you, telling you about how it is your duty....Christian forums ask for money...everybody asks for money.