The Bible and moderate drinking

[durangodawood]

Don't get drunk.

But if you want to have some wine with your steak or knock back some beers with your NFL, feel free. Anybody who says otherwise is a legalist.

Are they a legalist, or just wrong about what the Bible says?

 

[Kilk1]

So I have to admit I find it interesting that almost all the posts here are fine with moderate drinking, while only one poster seems to have a problem with it. And even the one who has a problem with it doesn't say it's inherently sinful.

That being said, I know many who do argue that the Bible condemns all forms of alcohol consumption, whether it leads to visible drunkenness or not. If anyone like that is here, don't be shy. Since it goes against the way I've been raised, I want to make sure I'm understanding Psalm 104:14-15, Isaiah 25:6, and John 2:1-11 correctly. Thanks!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Hello! For most of my life, I've understood drinking to be sinful under all circumstances. However, while the Bible condemns drunkenness in no uncertain terms (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Ephesians 5:18), I've come across some verses that cause me to question if alcohol consumption is always sinful.

The notion that alcohol is always sinful comes from the US Temperance movement!

American Christian groups that affiliated or come out of that movement like to imply and guilt trip every one around them of this position. But anyone who can read the Bible for themselves can see can see that the Bible is not totally against the use of alcohol but rather against drunkenness'.

Furthermore
1) To be an Israelite you had to partake in Passover, which had drinking wine as part of the ritual liturgy.

2) Even the Nazarite vow where such things were abstained from ended where the person drank wine etc.

3) And then you have things like Communion in the NT Church, which was actually prefigured in the OT with Abraham and “Melchizedek in Genesis 14.

4) Their was no non-alcoholic wine invented until Welches invented it in the 1800s. They had grape juice in Bible times but this was not called wine in Greek, but Glucose (the same word we use for sugar). So it would be impossible for Christians to have had this position for most of Church history, at the very least they would be reinterpreting the Bible to drink fresh grape juice and without inventing pasteurization it would have been tough to do that continually when it comes to celebrating communion throughout the year because of the not having a supply of fresh grapes on hand all the time and the process of fermentation...

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hello! For most of my life, I've understood drinking to be sinful under all circumstances. However, while the Bible condemns drunkenness in no uncertain terms (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Ephesians 5:18), I've come across some verses that cause me to question if alcohol consumption is always sinful.

The first passage I'd like to consider is Psalm 104:14-15 (NKJV, emphasis mine):

He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens man’s heart.

The passage above teaches that God actually intends wine for us to make our hearts glad. For passages that speak of wine in a good way, I've often heard preachers explain that the wine is non-alcoholic. However, while it's true that different words are used of wine in the original languages of the Bible, the Hebrew word used in this verse for wine is yayin, which according to Strong’s Definitions means "wine (as fermented); by implication, intoxication:—banqueting, wine, wine(-bibber)." Does this teach that God intends fermented wine as a blessing, then?

There's also Isaiah 25:6 (emphasis mine):

And in this mountain
The Lord of hosts will make for all people
A feast of choice pieces,
A feast of wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.

Isn't this speaking of "wines on the lees" (aged wine) as a good thing?

The third and final passage I'd like to consider is John 2:1-11, the record of Jesus turning water to wine. The Greek word translated "wine" here is oinos. I've heard that this word can refer to either alcoholic or non-alcoholic wine depending on the context, and so I've always been told that the "wine" in this passage is non-alcoholic. However, there's something in the context I didn't know about, specifically what the master of the feast said in verse 10: "Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!" (emphasis mine). Some claim that non-alcoholic wine was considered the "good wine" back then. However, the Greek word translated "drunk" is methuo, which according to Strong’s Definitions means "to drink to intoxication, i.e. get drunk:—drink well, make (be) drunk(-en)."

Now obviously, since drunkenness is condemned, Jesus didn't endorse that. However, it appears that the "good wine" here contains alcohol, since we read that it was possible to get "well drunk" (methuo) on the good wine referenced.

What are your thoughts? Do these passages endorse the moderate consumption of alcohol? Thanks in advance for your input!

Yes Biblically there is nothing wrong with moderate use of alcohol. The new testament even mentions strong wine in relationship to easing the pain of illness (so medicinal as well).

I don't drink, but then because of my background I never have.

I have since I've been saved had wine a couple times, but my tolerance level is so non-existant that I can't even tolerate a full glass, (I am tipsy sleepy drunk at a half glass) so I abstain the majority of the time, in totality... there's really not much point in a 1/4 glass...

But for those who can tolerate a glass of wine in an evening periodically, I see nothing wrong with it, most especially from a biblical standpoint.

I think whether or not one can tolerate alcohol is seemingly dependant on whether your parents and grandparents did. My husband enjoys a beer periodically in an evening, most especially when he has achy joints (we are getting older.. lol) but his dad drank some, and so did his grandfather.

So I think there's a lot to be said in familial use as to whether or not a person can tolerate moderate amounts without drunkenness. That I know of no one in my family has ever drank alcohol, which may explain my inability to tolerate it..

 

[grasping the after wind]

Are they a legalist, or just wrong about what the Bible says?

Seems to me that some people have had to make up a ridiculous story about grape juice just to keep believing that total abstinence is biblically required. As was pointed out earlier there was no grape juice anywhere available in the ancient world at Passover.

 

[com7fy8]

The first passage I'd like to consider is Psalm 104:14-15 (NKJV, emphasis mine):

He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens man’s heart.

The passage above teaches that God actually intends wine for us to make our hearts glad.

Well, early scripture can hold poetic references to all we have in Jesus >

The Holy Spirit makes us glad.

The oil of gladness of the Holy Spirit blesses us.

And Jesus and His word is the bread of life making us strong.

Does wine make you strong? It might soothe you or make you feel good, but only God can make us strong in our character; or else we can be depending on medicines or alcoholic drinks or other comfort items which might ease our feelings but not make us deeply strong so trouble can't get the better of us. And weakness for a feel-good measure . . . food comfort, too . . . can be weakness later so we can suffer deeply.

So, this is why we are told to be strong in Jesus > Ephesians 6:10.

But . . . after all this > I accept that it can be fine to enjoy some wine. God "gives us richly all things to enjoy," we have in 1 Timothy 6:17 > "but I will not be brought under the power of any," our Apostle Paul also says . . . in 1 Corinthians 6:12.

So, what I get is if I enjoy something, a sip is plenty so I can enjoy it. It is a quality not quantity thing. I can also enjoy something, while staying away from it . . . if I truly am not dependent on it and therefore not under its power.

Paul could be content with a lot or a little > Philippians 4:11-13. So, if we are being satisfied with Jesus and with loving as His family, our main blessing and attention is with relating with our Father and one another.

I know I shouldn't drink but I'm so stressed out of what's going on with me.

Thank you for sharing such a personal thing with us; God bless you We love you and can pray for you.

Has anyone here ever seen ripe grapes in the early Spring?

Aged grape juice might preserve better than fresh grape juice. If you harvest the grapes in autumn, they will ferment by Passover, I would say.

But if we are first depending on Jesus, resting in the LORD, we are sober and deeply satisfied in His "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) So, I understand it is wise to pray and be satisfied with God in His peace, first, before dealing with troubles or doing anything. Be sober in His peace which has us seeing things clearly and enjoy doing what the creativity of God's peace has us doing >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

 

[bèlla]

Wine is served in synagogues. During the Shabbat service and afterward for the congregation with challah.

Yours in Service,

~Bella

 

[Junia]

Wine is served in synagogues. During the Shabbat service and afterward for the congregation with challah.

Yours in Service,

~Bella

Two of my favourite things. Wine and challah. Add chocolate and am in a special kind of heaven...

 

[Aquatic Waves]

Sure, the Bible encourages caution. But, don't beat yourself up. If a drink eases the troubles of the day, then by all means, partake. But, since it concerns you, use that caution.​

Yes I know but I've been doing this for along time. I need to stop. I would go to a AA meeting but idk if im a candidate (since I'm not an alcoholic) and the meetings are closed due to covid. I know there's zoom but I prefer in person help​

 

[Aquatic Waves]

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[Aquatic Waves]

Thank you for sharing such a personal thing with us; God bless you We love you and can pray for you.

Thank you so much. God bless you too

 

[Strathos]

I'd say that, like many things, it's acceptable in moderation.

 

[com7fy8]

Yes I know but I've been doing this for along time. I need to stop. I would go to a AA meeting but idk if im a candidate (since I'm not an alcoholic) and the meetings are closed due to covid. I know there's zoom but I prefer in person help

My father dried out by means of A.A. I was just getting out of eighth grade. And I decided if my father could fall to booze, then I could. So, I decided to go to A.A. meetings with him, so I would not become an alcoholic.

They talked a lot about how the grace of God made them able to stop and stay stopped.

But my father then found they were not making it about Jesus. After He became a Christian and discovered how better it is with Christ, he did outreach through A.A. to others.

But A.A. does not formally support any particular doctrinal group or religious group. So, while you can find someone to help you, by visiting meetings, we all need Jesus.

And you can simply go in and listen; there is not monitoring about who goes . . . especially if it is an "open" meeting. There are "closed" meetings, for the privacy of ones who want to dry out or who are getting started and not comfortable about publicly sharing what is going on with them.

But Jesus can comfort you.

And I would not get into what label to put on yourself. If you have a problem, trust Jesus about it, and see if you find ones who help you. They might be at an A.A. meeting, or not . . . very possibly both

Also, by the way > now there is Celebrate Recovery, a Christian way of doing what A.A. calls their Twelve Steps. The Celebrate Recovery approach includes Bible verses and principles along with the A.A. Twelve Steps. A pastor or website might be able to get you connected with a group.

In the A.A. culture, there can be a sort of pressure to say you are an alcoholic if you get more involved. There is the idea that a person who is an alcoholic always will be, and so the person never can safely drink. And indeed there are ones who have supposed they could stop and then get control over their drinking, however then they have fallen and ones even have never recovered. So, I wouldn't push you or someone else with a drinking problem to think you with God can start drinking. And they seem to encourage people to admit they are alcoholics so they will adopt the idea that they can never again drink > because A.A. considers a definition alcoholic someone who can not drink safely; so if ones try to get you to adopt the label . . . I would not get upset about it, in case you don't agree > in any case, stay with what really helps you.

But our help, really, is not needed only for certain specific problems, but God wants us to have all the good which His word guarantees His children. And A.A. does not get into all the good which we have in the Bible message.

However, in Twelve Step meetings, I see they have readings which can be used with Christian application. So, it can be good to share in a Twelve Step meeting.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yes I know but I've been doing this for along time. I need to stop. I would go to a AA meeting but idk if im a candidate (since I'm not an alcoholic) and the meetings are closed due to covid. I know there's zoom but I prefer in person help​

I would suggest counselling. If the counsellor is strictly anti-alcohol, you won't get much help. As you can see in this thread, very few Christians suggest total abstinence is the only path even if it is for them. So you need a counsellor who won't trouble you merely for having a drink.

Pardon me for pretending to know anything (hence the suggestion to get real help), but I'd guess that you have more a problem with false guilt than with alcohol.

But, of course, I could be wrong.

 

[seeking.IAM]

Gluttony includes all forms of over-indulgence. I’m not surprised it isn’t addressed lest it put things on the hot seat few want to relinquish.

Plus, churches are notorious for gatherings with lots of food.

I am happy to say I've done my part. When I left home for college, I pledged to my mother I would still attend church but I forswore ever going to a church potluck again.

I will enjoy the fruit of the vine from time to time, though. I think the Bible is quite clear in condemning drunkenness while not prohibiting consuming alcohol in moderation.

 

[Aquatic Waves]

I would suggest counselling. If the counsellor is strictly anti-alcohol, you won't get much help. As you can see in this thread, very few Christians suggest total abstinence is the only path even if it is for them. So you need a counsellor who won't trouble you merely for having a drink.

Pardon me for pretending to know anything (hence the suggestion to get real help), but I'd guess that you have more a problem with false guilt than with alcohol.

But, of course, I could be wrong.

I mentioned this to my therapist. She believes alcohol is ok as long as I'm not an alcoholic and drink in moderation

False guilt? Please be more specific

 

[Tinker Grey]

False guilt? Please be more specific

I'm not qualified. I think sometimes people feel guilty for things they should never feel guilty for. Why? Someone told them they should feel that way. They were taught to feel shame about things that aren't shameful.

That'll have to be between you and your therapist.

 

[Aquatic Waves]

I'm not qualified. I think sometimes people feel guilty for things they should never feel guilty for. Why? Someone told them they should feel that way. They were taught to feel shame about things that aren't shameful.

That'll have to be between you and your therapist.

I actually mentioned this in 1 of my threads. I'm too embarrass to post it here so you can click on my profile and find it

 

[Tinker Grey]

I actually mentioned this in 1 of my threads. I'm too embarrass to post it here so you can click on my profile and find it

Thanks for the offer.

I won't pry.

I hope you find peace.

 

[Francis Drake]

I am sure that I am not against every social evil, but this one is personal for me, since my grandmother was addicted to alcohol.

So just because your grandmother was addicted, you put guilt on the rest of us????