The best evidence for Creationism

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AndrewRyan

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You know CabVet, I have learned a lot about science on this forum that I never knew before. I have found some of you guys to be WAY above me intellectually and that's okay with me. I've learned a little about evolution but I certainly do not have a handle on what it actually means and is. As a matter of fact even you guys on here don't always explain it the same way. I think some people on here really have a handle on it and then others just sort of "think" they do. I hesitate to agree with evolution because I really don't know what it is. When it comes to domestic dogs coming from wolves, I'm okay with that but when they try to tell me that the reason a giraffe has a long neck is because it wanted to reach the leaves high on a tree, I can't go along with that. That defies reason. I want to know why no other animals wanted the leaves high up on the tree and grew their necks as long, also. Some of the stories and theories just don't jive with me. BUT the major thing I CANNOT accept is that man came from a common ancestor of anything else than the creation of Adam the first man. I could even believe that the apes and monkeys deteriorated from man and became what they are today before I can believe that we came from anything other than what the scriptures say about the creation of man. I may not see the scriptures like every other creationist but I do believe God created man in His image and likeness and gave him dominion over the earth and the creatures therein. That will never change whether I see a transition before my eyes or not. As a matter of fact if I did see that transition right before my eyes I would think it was God because I think God is the only One who can do that. I know you might not be able to see that but for sure that will never change in my life. I know God and I believe Him. No one can convince me that God doesn't exist. I would believe first that the evidence was flawed before I believed that God was not a real and viable and Supreme entity in this universe....creating all and ruling over all.

You cant believe that man and monkeys come from a common ancestor, but you believe in A god because let me guess thats what you were born into believing? If you were born in India you would grow up to be a muslim and put your heart into that, did you ever think of that?
 
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CabVet

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You know CabVet, I have learned a lot about science on this forum that I never knew before. I have found some of you guys to be WAY above me intellectually and that's okay with me. I've learned a little about evolution but I certainly do not have a handle on what it actually means and is. As a matter of fact even you guys on here don't always explain it the same way. I think some people on here really have a handle on it and then others just sort of "think" they do. I hesitate to agree with evolution because I really don't know what it is. When it comes to domestic dogs coming from wolves, I'm okay with that but when they try to tell me that the reason a giraffe has a long neck is because it wanted to reach the leaves high on a tree, I can't go along with that. That defies reason. I want to know why no other animals wanted the leaves high up on the tree and grew their necks as long, also. Some of the stories and theories just don't jive with me. BUT the major thing I CANNOT accept is that man came from a common ancestor of anything else than the creation of Adam the first man. I could even believe that the apes and monkeys deteriorated from man and became what they are today before I can believe that we came from anything other than what the scriptures say about the creation of man. I may not see the scriptures like every other creationist but I do believe God created man in His image and likeness and gave him dominion over the earth and the creatures therein. That will never change whether I see a transition before my eyes or not. As a matter of fact if I did see that transition right before my eyes I would think it was God because I think God is the only One who can do that. I know you might not be able to see that but for sure that will never change in my life. I know God and I believe Him. No one can convince me that God doesn't exist. I would believe first that the evidence was flawed before I believed that God was not a real and viable and Supreme entity in this universe....creating all and ruling over all.

See, no reason to ask for "missing links" or more evidence for evolution at all when you admit you won't believe it even if you had all the evidence in the world. Was it that hard to admit?

As for giraffes having long necks because they "want" leaves high up in the trees, that is part of a hypothesis that we call Lamarckism (because it was first described by Jean-Baptiste Lamarck), and it is not evolution. Lamarckism was proposed in 1809 and refuted 50 years later by Darwin in 1859 when he published the Origin of Species.
 
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CabVet

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You cant believe that man and monkeys come from a common ancestor, but you believe in A god because let me guess thats what you were born into believing? If you were born in India you would grow up to be a muslim and put your heart into that, did you ever think of that?

Actually, if she was born in India she would most likely be Hindu, but I get your point. ;)
 
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USincognito

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USincognito

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That's right. That's all you have to do. That's all most people ever do and most any of you ever do and yet, you believe it is rock solid evidence.

Who are you talking to and what are you talking about? You said you couldn't find any evidence and I provided an abstract to one of the many papers I found providing the evidence you were asking for. :confused:

Well, Sherlock you'll have to investigate that for yourself.

Thanks. I did when I plugged the proper search terms into the proper search engine and found a bunch of peer-reviewed sources going back ~40 years. Forgive me if I wasn't interested in clicking on a link to a newsgroup agregator site and seeing what the usenet post was.

I accept your concession that you're unwilling to support your claims.
 
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Elendur

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Well, I can actually agree with you here. I believe the reason for this is that creationists are trying to use the scriptures as scientific information rather than what they are ... spiritual information... which I believe is much HIGHER than scientific information or rationalism. The spiritual realm is a much more profound realm than the natural (which is profound in itself) but the spiritual is where God abides and no one will ever be able to observe God by natural means. The natural is just too limiting.
That's an admirable stance :) I wouldn't value spiritual information over scientific, but that's just a personal choice.

I know what you are saying, I feel that way about science. It is an area that I am just not educated in. Not that I want to be because it's not where God wants me. My place is to bring the spiritual to people and give them the opportunity to get involved or not. I'm not going to do that by arguing about science. In my opinion science is too diverse and in that diversity it keeps any of us from knowing all the truth about everything. It's just too vast and overwhelming. Too many chef's in the kitchen so to speak.
That's also admirable :) if only some more could share your stance :)
I also think it's important to note that it's the diversity in science, not science in itself, that makes it hard to get an overview of how things work.

I relate again and try very hard to keep that in check, also.
:thumbsup:
 
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Loudmouth

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BTW LM you never did see the transition happen "in the lab" as I said.


It has happened within the history of mankind. It is a non-controversial relationship. Even creationists agree that domestic dogs and wolves share a common ancestor.

As to the evidence of a deity, I told you there is plenty of evidence, in peoples lives all over the world and it's been happening for thousands of years. Just because there are no scientific peer reviews does not mean there is no evidence. Peer review does not determine evidence it only writes about it.

You say there is evidence, and yet you fail to present it.

If species do not share a common ancestor then surely there is some scientific evidence you can point to. The same for a recent global flood and a young earth. If you can't, then the mountains of scientific evidence we have for shared ancestry, no global flood, and an old Earth stands.
 
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Loudmouth

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but when they try to tell me that the reason a giraffe has a long neck is because it wanted to reach the leaves high on a tree, I can't go along with that.


Neither can we. Adaptations do not appear because an organism want them.

BUT the major thing I CANNOT accept is that man came from a common ancestor of anything else than the creation of Adam the first man.

Is there any potential evidence that would ever change your mind?
 
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Inan3

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"When portions of mitochondrial DNA from wolves and domestic dogs was sequenced, the control region of wolves and dogs was demonstrated to be highly polymorphic. The distribution of wolf haplotypes displayed geographic specificity, with most localities containing haplotypes unique to a particular region. Sequence diversity amongst dogs was similar. However, mitochondrial haplotype diversity in dogs could not be partitioned according to breed. Many breeds shared sequences with other breeds. No dog sequence differed from any wolf sequence by more than 12 substitutions, whereas dog differed from coyotes and jackals by at least 20 substitutions and 2 insertions. This supported a wolf ancestry for dogs.
However, because mitochondrial DNA is maternally inherited, interbreeding between female dogs and male coyotes or jackals would not be detected. Therefore, a more limited study of nuclear DNA was also carried out. This also supported the conclusion that the wolf was the ancestor of the domestic dog."

The Origins of the Domestic Dog | Archaeozoology

There are two references to peer reviewed articles at the bottom of the article if you are interested in learning more.

Domesticated Dogs
Dog Wants a Head of Cabbage More than Anything - LOL
 
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thomasmitchel

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Responding to Wiccan_Child's request for the passages in which Jesus mention Noah, Abel, Creation and validity of Scripture and is not speaking in parables-- Matthew 24, Matthew 23, Matthew 19, and Matthew 5. The really interesting thing is we can pretty much know what "Scipture" Christ was referencing because of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Responding to USincognito on various matters. With regard to the Katrina evience, it demonstrates that multiple layers of sediment can be laid down very quickly (hours rather than centuries) under those conditions. Some of your requests I cannot answer until I have 50 posts and can post links. On bottlenecks, do you want to discuss the unidisputed human bottleneck or do you want to discuss animal bottleneck. Most anti-creationists shy from the human bottleneck because it is fairly undisputed and is only a question of timing. On the animal bottleneck, one has to understand that what came off the ark were created kinds, not species, and carried the genetic material necessary for speciation. A good example is the American Bison, a species (as opposed to a created kind) that recovered from near extinction and demonstrates good genetic diversity -- in less than a hundred twenty-five years. It had human help and there was cross-species breeding, but the kinds that came off the ark would not have needed it.

On the Japanese reference. That single earthquake moved a nation and that tsunami killed thousands, while the Indonesion one killed tens of thousands. At the Flood, the fountains of the deep broke open. I have seen estimates of 5000 to 20,000 undersea volcanoes -- Imagine 12,000 Japans, not to mention what fell from the sky.

On the Grand Canyon -- I did not see any refutation, just names. That is not even a decent ad hominem attack.

Back to Wiccan_Child. On the Answers Research Journal and Creation Science Research Quarterly. Find one fact or piece of evidence an article got wrong or one conclusion based upon a logical fallacy. On the other hand, journals written with an anti-creationist bias are full of assuming the conclusion and uniformitarian problems. If you want to contend that bias among those that call themselves scientists is exaggerated or not real, explain why Damadian did not share in the 2003 Nobel for his original and foundational work that lead to the development of the MRI.

On dating. The biggest problem as I see it is that given the lack of empirical proof of decay constants, the closest you can come to an empirically verifiable dating mechanism (based on the length of the half-life) is Carbon-14. You said you are a physicist? You science types prefer empirically verifiable data, correct? Are you familiar with the reportings of Fischbach, Sturrock and Jenkins? Your other concerns are only concerns if you assume the earth is millions/billions of years rather that 6000 to 8000. I will acknowledge that perhaps the bristlecone pine seems to something of an issue; however, other pines develope multiple rings in a single year. What dating methods were used by the anti-creationist archeologists to attempt to push the dates of those ancient cities further and further back? With regard to the laws of physics, what LAW of physics is impacted if decay constants are not constant (and they are not). I understand that the speed of light is part of that equation as well and I am not contesting that constant. Are you confused?

On the flood narratives -- the point is that almost every human civilization has one. It is part of our collective consciousness. It happened.
 
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Well, I can actually agree with you here. I believe the reason for this is that creationists are trying to use the scriptures as scientific information rather than what they are ... spiritual information... which I believe is much HIGHER than scientific information or rationalism. The spiritual realm is a much more profound realm than the natural (which is profound in itself) but the spiritual is where God abides and no one will ever be able to observe God by natural means. The natural is just too limiting.

We can measure/ observe/ describe anything that has an affect on the physical world around us (I don't think anyone can deny that). If this 'Spiritual realm' were to have an affect on our physical world, then it would be possible to scientifically observe this realm. God's actions on our world would change the consistent observations which are predicted using the descriptions/ laws of our natural world and these actions would come out as anomalies in the data; When he drops his "hand" in and knocks out a few miracles, we're going to see the effect.
Nature is everything that has an effect on us. So unless it (the spiritual realm) has no effect on us, your understanding of "The natural" should also include this spiritual realm.
 
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USincognito

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With regard to the Katrina evience, it demonstrates that multiple layers of sediment can be laid down very quickly (hours rather than centuries) under those conditions.

Multiple layers of sediment in a highly localized area under well understood conditions is not the same as multiple layers of strata world wide lain in a variety of well understood condition which is what we find and presents a serious problem for Flood geology.

Localized flooding does not create salt or chalk deposits. Localized flooding does not layer limestone, aeolian sandstone, basalt and shale. Localized flooding doesn't explain why we find trace fossils in strata like insect burrows, footprints, root systems, etc.

Some of your requests I cannot answer until I have 50 posts and can post links.

Just use the [plain] tags until that point. The url won't convert to a hyperlink, and you can still post the whole thing.

On bottlenecks, do you want to discuss the unidisputed human bottleneck or do you want to discuss animal bottleneck. Most anti-creationists shy from the human bottleneck because it is fairly undisputed and is only a question of timing.

I'm up for whatever you've got man because I'm more than confident that it's all PRATTs and cherry picked data ignoring the larger context. Feel free to post the human bottleneck (whichever one you're referring to) and we'll discuss it.

On the animal bottleneck, one has to understand that what came off the ark were created kinds, not species, and carried the genetic material necessary for speciation.

Ad hoc horsefeathers. Kinds is a bogus concept that has no explanatory power and zero scientific evidence. Creationists cannot draw a line between kitty cats, moo cows and horsies (because they tend to myopically focus on barnyard and zoo mammals) and make it stick. The common ancestry of cows and horses as cousins and their groups being cousins to cats is well understood and well evidenced.

And the genetic pre-loading "argument" is nothing but ad hoc with no evidence supporting it what-so-ever. If it were true we should find genes for all the characteristics of every species of a "kind" present in each species with the various genes either turned on, off or broken. We don't.

A good example is the American Bison, a species (as opposed to a created kind) that recovered from near extinction and demonstrates good genetic diversity -- in less than a hundred twenty-five years. It had human help and there was cross-species breeding, but the kinds that came off the ark would not have needed it.

More genetic frontloading ad hoc nonsense. There's no evidence for that. American bison are regulated to ensure genetic diversity. And they're not the only species to be pulled back from the brink of extinction. The European bison has as well, is highly regulated for genetic diversity, but still have lost 3 of 5 Y chromosome lineages since the breeding program began.

And Bison is a genus (2 extant and 3 known extinct species) that is connected via common ancestry with Afrian Buffalo, genus Bos that includes domestic cattle and water buffalo in the tribe Bovini. All Bovini species are connected via common ancestry with other members of sub-family Bovinae such as kudu and elands. Family Bovidae are connected via common ancestry and includes Bovinae cousins like impalas, wildebeasts, sheep and goats.

On the Japanese reference. That single earthquake moved a nation and that tsunami killed thousands, while the Indonesion one killed tens of thousands. At the Flood, the fountains of the deep broke open. I have seen estimates of 5000 to 20,000 undersea volcanoes -- Imagine 12,000 Japans, not to mention what fell from the sky.

Who is making these bogus estimates and on what evidence to they base them? Because there simply is no evidence anywhere on the earth of 5,000-20,000 undersea volcanos - and you do realize that volcanos are different from earthquakes, right?

On the Grand Canyon -- I did not see any refutation, just names. That is not even a decent ad hominem attack.

I mentioned the names of two of the most prominent YEC proponents of the Grand Canyon being resultant from the Flood. The fact that you don't know who they are suggests to me you're not even getting your information first hand from YEC sources.
 
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Loudmouth

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Responding to USincognito on various matters. With regard to the Katrina evience, it demonstrates that multiple layers of sediment can be laid down very quickly (hours rather than centuries) under those conditions.

Multiple layers of what? Geologists already understand that catastrophic processes can produce layers of sediments. They are able to differentiate between layers created by catastrophic processes and layers created by slower processes.

For example, did Katrina produce hundreds of thousands of varves with alternating layers of clay and diatoms? Was organic material, such as insects and leaf debris, sorted in these layers based on differences in 14C? This is what we see in Lake Suigetsu. These are consistent with annual layers produced by diatom blooms in the spring. This is further supported by the 14C dating of the leaves and insects found in each layer. The deeper layers contain less 14C than the layers further up. How does single flood produce these features? It can't.

Simply "making layers" does not explain the evidence.

On the animal bottleneck, one has to understand that what came off the ark were created kinds, not species, and carried the genetic material necessary for speciation. A good example is the American Bison, a species (as opposed to a created kind) that recovered from near extinction and demonstrates good genetic diversity -- in less than a hundred twenty-five years. It had human help and there was cross-species breeding, but the kinds that came off the ark would not have needed it.

Evidence for any of this?

On the Japanese reference. That single earthquake moved a nation and that tsunami killed thousands, while the Indonesion one killed tens of thousands.

The movement of the plates is what produces the earthquakes. More specifically, these are megathrust earthquakes where the plates get stuck together at a subduction zone, and then one plate suddenly loosens and thrusts upwards.

Megathrust earthquake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the Flood, the fountains of the deep broke open. I have seen estimates of 5000 to 20,000 undersea volcanoes -- Imagine 12,000 Japans, not to mention what fell from the sky.

Evidence for any of this?

On dating. The biggest problem as I see it is that given the lack of empirical proof of decay constants,

Then your problems are solved:

CF210: Constancy of Radioactive Decay Rates

We have evidence that decay is constant.

With regard to the laws of physics, what LAW of physics is impacted if decay constants are not constant (and they are not).

You would need to change the forces found in the atom which would include the strong nuclear force and the electroweak force. You would have to change the fundamental constants of the universe in order to change decay rates.

Also, an increase in decay will also produce massive amounts of heat, enough to sterlize the Earth.

On the flood narratives -- the point is that almost every human civilization has one. It is part of our collective consciousness. It happened.

Yes, except for the civilizations that don't have flood myths. Also, the flood myths are different in different cultures. Given that many cultures live near water it isn't any surprise that they have flood myths since they have probably experienced floods in the past.
 
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thomasmitchel

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Replying generally to USincognito and Loudmouth.

With regard to Katrina evidence, you are distinguishing between sediment layers and strata, because your theory suffers from the fallacy of assuming the conclusion. There is no satisfactory scientifically derived empirical evidence that soft tissue and plant products can fossilize in natural as opposed to laboratory settings. The honest scientists acknowledge such. The Katrina evidence does not prove the Flood occurred, but it helps us understand some of the processes that resulted in the geological evidence we see.

On decay "non-constants" look for the research by Jenkins, Fischbach and Sturrock. Purdue's group is trying to patent a proecess for detecting solar flares by measuring changes in decay constants which precede the flares by a day or so. C14 is the only process that one can even come close to empirical proof and it is shakey at best -- newly formed rock from volcanic activity dated to thousands of years? The best you can say is that some of the so-called constants have the same rate most of the time. Not very compelling. Not when your whole world view depends upon it.

Just to be transparent, yes I am a Young Earth Creationist, and have been for 25 years since my undergrad years at UVa. You do not have any valid criticisms of most of those young earth or creationist sources except that you reject their outlook and conclusions. Occaisionally faulty material gets posted, but when pointed out it gets pulled down. Here is a challenge: Answers Research Journal and Creations Research Society Quarterly are peer reviewed journals. Find one fact that is false, one conclusion arrived at based upon a logical fallacy or posit one valid real criticism of their peer review process.

On the animal bottleneck and created kinds, provide one empirically verifiable piece of evidence that does not suffer from the fallacy of assuming the conclusion or uniformitarianism that tends to disprove that created kinds existed and resulted in the diversity that we now see. I was not aware that the genome of every species, much less every individual had been mapped. So USincognito simply cannot substantiale the statements he/she makes. Even if the statement were accurate -- it would be a case of we do not fully understand it yet.

On the human bottleneck, it is widely recognized to have occurred, the only question is when -- thousands or millions of years ago. The anti-creationist theories suffer from the same uniformitarian problem that so many of their other idesas do. Noah's sons and their wives would have been much closer to the perfectly created pair, Adam and Eve, and thus their genetic makeup would not have suffered from the level of problems we see today. Mutations, while a few may be beneficial for a particular environment, or may lead to new traits, do not add information so as to create major functions that can support evolution. Most mutations, however, are harmful or neutral at best. Thus, without uniformitarian assumptions, anti-creationists cannot empirically establish that the human bottleneck did not occur about 5000 to 6000 years ago.

On Japan. Yes I understand that volcanoes and earthquakes are different, but tsunamis can be caused by either and that was my point. I have not run to ground the data about undersea volcanoes and thus the wide range of number. I have seen various numbers, some much larger, some smaller and I think it depends on size and activity. It seems I saw a site from Oregon State. [btw, I am sorry but I do not know what noparse tags are, but will try to figure it out]
 
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Wiccan_Child

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On the human bottleneck, it is widely recognized to have occurred, the only question is when -- thousands or millions of years ago. The anti-creationist theories suffer from the same uniformitarian problem that so many of their other idesas do. Noah's sons and their wives would have been much closer to the perfectly created pair, Adam and Eve, and thus their genetic makeup would not have suffered from the level of problems we see today.
Allegedly. The bottleneck would still be apparent, unless God used miracles to hide the evidence. Did he do that?

Mutations, while a few may be beneficial for a particular environment, or may lead to new traits, do not add information
Yes, they do. Any point insertion mutation qualifies as an increase in 'information'.

so as to create major functions that can support evolution.
Did you know that there are bacteria that can eat nylon? That a twenty-year long study of E. coli showed that one batch evolved the novel ability to directly ingest citric acid (as opposed to more inefficient means that E. coli usually use). Major new functions right there.

Most mutations, however, are harmful or neutral at best.
Please provide a source for this statistic.

Thus, without uniformitarian assumptions, anti-creationists cannot empirically establish that the human bottleneck did not occur about 5000 to 6000 years ago.
Except, of course, we can. Your foundational error is twofold: one, that uinformitarianism is an unsubstantiated assumption - it's not - and two, that uniformitarianism is still how modern geology operates - it's not.
 
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Inan3

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We can measure/ observe/ describe anything that has an affect on the physical world around us (I don't think anyone can deny that). If this 'Spiritual realm' were to have an affect on our physical world, then it would be possible to scientifically observe this realm. God's actions on our world would change the consistent observations which are predicted using the descriptions/ laws of our natural world and these actions would come out as anomalies in the data; When he drops his "hand" in and knocks out a few miracles, we're going to see the effect.
Nature is everything that has an effect on us. So unless it (the spiritual realm) has no effect on us, your understanding of "The natural" should also include this spiritual realm.

I certainly agree with you. The spiritual realm affects the natural realm all the time. I'm just saying you cannot see or observe GOD by natural means, although you can observe the effects of God all the time.
 
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Inan3

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Neither can we. Adaptations do not appear because an organism want them.

Please do explain then how the giraffe got its long neck.

Is there any potential evidence that would ever change your mind?

How could I possibly answer that? First of all, I ask, Why would I? Wouldn't one have to be unsatisfied with what they already believe and be seeking answers to why they were unsatisfied before they would consider changing their mind?

Second of all, change my mind to WHAT?
 
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Inan3

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It has happened within the history of mankind. It is a non-controversial relationship. Even creationists agree that domestic dogs and wolves share a common ancestor.[/COLOR]

You say there is evidence, and yet you fail to present it.

If species do not share a common ancestor then surely there is some scientific evidence you can point to. The same for a recent global flood and a young earth. If you can't, then the mountains of scientific evidence we have for shared ancestry, no global flood, and an old Earth stands.

You have no mountains of scientific evidence. You suggest that surely there is some scientific evidence that I can point to but truthfully you have not given me any evidence that proves your point either. You only have speculation. You have man made classifications that don't PROVE anything. As to the global flood account you have no proof that it didn't happen. There are polystrates all over the world, turbidity currents, spontaneous sorting of layers, marine fossils in mountains, eratic boulders, fissures in the rocks, frozen mammoths, extensive strata and pancake layering, out of order fossils, etc. I know that you will suggest an answer for each of these but there are enough scientists that have questions about these that it makes sense to give them as much credence as the answers that those who would like to deny a global flood existence. The fact is that people want to deny God or the Bible as valid and therefore they CHOOSE to rather believe the lie and let themselves be convinced that it is untrue. I suggest there is enough evidence in the natural to suggests that it could be true and that coupled with my own spiritual experience and knowledge of God keeps me on the side of the scriptures. I'm not going to change my whole life and deny a relationship with God based on speculations, half truths, could be's and might have beens. I find nothing greater than what I have to convince me otherwise. I might as well deny my own existence if I were going to do that. God is real and I would never leave that truth for anything. I cannot imagine ANYTHING that could take His place!!!

P.S. I'm not convinced of a young earth. I don't find that to be necessarily scriptural.
 
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Neither can we. Adaptations do not appear because an organism want them.
Please do explain then how the giraffe got its long neck.
I don't think anyone knows for certain. For some reason, perhaps sexual selection, giraffe ancestors with longer necks left more offspring.
Loudmouth said:
Is there any potential evidence that would ever change your mind?
Inan3 said:
How could I possibly answer that?
You certainly understand your own mind better than you do giraffe evolution. Or do you?!
Inan3 said:
First of all, I ask, Why would I? Wouldn't one have to be unsatisfied with what they already believe and be seeking answers to why they were unsatisfied before they would consider changing their mind?
Why would a doper ever think about giving up his drugs, when they make him feel so good?
Second of all, change my mind to WHAT?
How about changing it to something rational, a mind that can make decisions based on the real world and not just wishful fantasies?

:wave:
 
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