The benefits of socialism

[Kaon]

Limousine Liberal Ocasio-Cortez Wears $3,500 Outfit With Construction Worker

I thought she believed in spreading her money around? Could have given a lot of meals to the poor.

My wife is a very classy dresser and finds outfits at the Dress Barn that look as nice as that one and she only spends a couple hundred dollars (at the most) on them.

Seems many politicians end up spending more than they make. Could be one of the many roads to corruption?
M-Bob

Social/Communism only works if the leaders are perfect.

Capitalism works only if the leaders are corrupt.

The philosophy of socialism and communism isn't new at all, and it is something people actually deign to allow on the surface.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I do not see how this say something different? The USA is not the major reason for Norway's trade surplus

I hereby exempt Norway from the discussion (it was a red herring anyway).

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Socialism only works until the ones such as I are sucked dry.

Then the ones that work and the ones that don't want to work are all broke.

One out of every three or four will work for the government. And not work very hard for everything will be guaranteed to them until the collapse.

M-Bob

 

[Chris V++]

We're not talking capitalism vs socialism. We're talking grumpyoldmanism.

!!!Just Joking!!!

 

[TheNorwegian]

I hereby exempt Norway from the discussion (it was a red herring anyway).

OK: Since the original hypothesis was that the Nordic 'Socialist' countries rely mainly on export to the US, it makes sense to include Norway. However, 6% of Sweden's export goes to the US and 9% of Denmark's export is to the US. and 7% of Finland's export goes to the US So, I cannot see that the argument holds

 

[OldWiseGuy]

OK: Since the original hypothesis was that the Nordic 'Socialist' countries rely mainly on export to the US, it makes sense to include Norway. However, 6% of Sweden's export goes to the US and 9% of Denmark's export is to the US. and 7% of Finland's export goes to the US So, I cannot see that the argument holds

I didn't specify the "Nordic Model", but the social democracies of northern Europe (there are nine). I'd have to run the numbers on all nine for a complete picture, which would be their overall trade numbers. My other point was that these countries are only able to support their social programs because of trade surpluses, some of which come largely from trade with the U.S. (Germany for example).

 

[Dave-W]

It would seem that modern socialism is entirely compatible with democracy.

Democracy is a political system
Socialism is an economic system

They are entirely independent.

 

[Dave-W]

. Direct democracy is nothing but mob rule, where the slimmest majority can disenfranchise the slimmest minority.

EDIT:

the slimmest majority can disenfranchise the LARGEST minority

It is the tyrant rule of 51%

 

[TheNorwegian]

My other point was that these countries are only able to support their social programs because of trade surpluses, some of which come largely from trade with the U.S. (Germany for example).

You do not need a trade surplus in order to support a social program. You just need to decide wisely how to prioritze the reseources you have: "Shall we use available manpower for military or for education?" The answer to that question is the main difference between Northern Europe and the US

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You do not need a trade surplus in order to support a social program. You just need to decide wisely how to prioritze the reseources you have: "Shall we use available manpower for military or for education?" The answer to that question is the main difference between Northern Europe and the US

Once again it's American dollars that are helping to enable these programs.
What will happen when those nations are forced to fully fund their membership in NATO? Will that cut into their social programs?

Apparently Norway spends lot of money on defense.

Trump to Norway, other NATO allies: Time to pay your fair share

 

[TheNorwegian]

Once again it's American dollars that are helping to enable these programs.

I hear you keep saying that, but it is simply not correct. You probably hope it is so, but the facts say otherwise.

Northern European economies are not at all dependent on US dollars. It sure helps to have a trade surplus with the US, but iy brings in just a tiny little fraction of what is needed for those programs. Way more than 99% of the financing comes from other soruces than trade with the US, like domestic taxation, etc.

What will happen when those nations are forced to fully fund their membership in NATO? Will that cut into their social programs?

Their is no membership fee in NATO. Each country is repsonsible for their own costs. While some NATO countries could use more on their military, it is certain that US should spend far less on their military. US military spening is way out of control​

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I hear you keep saying that, but it is simply not correct. You probably hope it is so, but the facts say otherwise.

Northern European economies are not at all dependent on US dollars. It sure helps to have a trade surplus with the US, but iy brings in just a tiny little fraction of what is needed for those programs. Way more than 99% of the financing comes from other soruces than trade with the US, like domestic taxation, etc.

Their is no membership fee in NATO. Each country is repsonsible for their own costs. While some NATO countries could use more on their military, it is certain that US should spend far less on their military. US military spening is way out of control​

While there is no membership fee there is a "common budget", of which the U.S. pays a disproportionate share.

Of course the U.S. must spend vast sums on it's own military, a military that must be used to defend Europe. European NATO members are only expected to 'hold the line' until help from the U.S. military arrives to save the day.

 

[TheNorwegian]

While there is no membership fee there is a "common budget", of which the U.S. pays a disproportionate share.

Of course the U.S. must spend vast sums on it's own military, a military that must be used to defend Europe. European NATO members are only expected to 'hold the line' until help from the U.S. military arrives to save the day.

The three largest European NATO memebrs spend almost three times as much on their military than Russia. So I think they are doing fine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures​

 

[DM25]

I'm pretty sure Jesus was more socialist than he was capitalist, at least in theory when you look at the corruption and greed of capitalism in the US today. One thing he would find unacceptable is how there are sick people in the United States who are in severe debt over hospital bills... I find it very frightening how if you get into an accident, it can can affect you financially for the rest of your life. As a Canadian it baffles me how the 12th richest nation in the world cannot get universal health care right.

You guys are great people, but your system is very broken!

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

I'm pretty sure Jesus was more socialist than he was capitalist, at least in theory when you look at the corruption and greed of capitalism in the US today.

Matthew 22:21 They said, "Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Doesn't sound very socialist to me (though I certainly wouldn't accuse Jesus of capitalism, either). If countries of the world practiced this, the socialist/communist ones would go broke, as they rely on giving to Caesar what is not Caesar's (i.e. stealing/taxation).

 

[Kaon]

Matthew 22:21 They said, "Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Doesn't sound very socialist to me (though I certainly wouldn't accuse Jesus of capitalism, either). If countries of the world practiced this, the socialist/communist ones would go broke, as they rely on giving to Caesar what is not Caesar's (i.e. stealing/taxation).

Christ's message itself was socialist.

He was setting an example for the rest of us living in the world; that is why He made the comment on Caesar and taxation. We are to obey whatever laws of the world until it conflicts with His Law.

Giving to the poor, charity, and healing the sick freely is not capitalism. The West is scared of socialism even as a philosophy because of parents and children of the Cold War teaching the generations to fear it or you aren't (insert Western nationalism here.)

 

[Kaon]

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[Mountainmanbob]

The West is scared of socialism even as a philosophy because of parents and children of the Cold War teaching the generations to fear it or you aren't (insert Western nationalism here.)

True my parents and grandparents did not like socialism but, I get my experience from looking around at the world today I truly don't think socialism is worthy or good.
M-Bob

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Christ's message itself was socialist.

He was setting an example for the rest of us living in the world; that is why He made the comment on Caesar and taxation. We are to obey whatever laws of the world until it conflicts with His Law.

The Jews knew taxation to be theft (other than the 10% tithe commanded by God). That's why they hoped to trap Jesus by having him either speak rebellion against Caesar (by denouncing theft/taxation), or support theft/taxation (and make out that Caesar was greater than God's commands). He did neither.

Giving to the poor, charity, and healing the sick freely is not capitalism.

Why do you believe this? If your money is stolen, how can you give it to the poor, to charity, or for healing?

The West is scared of socialism even as a philosophy because of parents and children of the Cold War teaching the generations to fear it or you aren't (insert Western nationalism here.)

I disagree. The West embraces socialism/communism too much. Christians generally don't, as they recognise that giving to the poor does not absolve the sin of stealing (i.e. taxation), necessary to make that gift. A gift to the poor does not justify the proceeds of crime.

 

[Kaon]

True my parents and grandparents did not like socialism but, I get my experience from looking around at the world today I truly don't think socialism is worthy or good.
M-Bob

Socialism only works if the leadership is perfect, but it is the ideal government.

Capitalism only works if the leadership is corrupt, since the focus is on making more capital (not helping humanity or circumstance).