The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[freeindeed2]

we don't know the statement "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" to be true...

So because you do not know you must reject it?

can a brain live without the body?

Of course not. The spirit is not brain or body though.

Stormy, this isn't a big issue for me and I doubt it is for you either, so we can drop it here if you don't mind. I don't feel the need to go into it any further and we both disagree with each other, and that's OK. What say you?

 

[freeindeed2]

That is not a statement of fact though you present it as if it were. This is another example of godtalk the sole purpose of which is to keep the pew subject to the pulpit.

Senti, then just take a picture of the Holy Spirit for me since you think it's only so-called "godtalk". That would be great, you could post it here for us so that we can at least have some visual evidence.

 

[sentipente]

So because you do not know you must reject it?

But if to be absent from the body means to be present with the Lord in the way some interpret it then we must also believe that while we are in the body we cannot be present with the Lord. This would mean that the Lord is not really omnipresent as we claim to believe. When our doctrines become internally inconsistent we need to take a much closer look.

 

[sentipente]

Senti, then just take a picture of the Holy Spirit for me since you think it's only so-called "godtalk". That would be great, you could post it here for us so that we can at least have some visual evidence.

I never claimed spirits don't exist or that they cannot take on other forms. But that does not mean that every other form has a piece of spirit. This is as close to pantheism as one would want to get.

 

[AndrewK788]

So because you do not know you must reject it?

Not necessarily, but should you accept it either?

 

[freeindeed2]

But if to be absent from the body means to be present with the Lord in the way some interpret it then we must also believe that while we are in the body we cannot be present with the Lord.

Actually, that exactly what Paul said. Very good!

This would mean that the Lord is not really omnipresent as we claim to believe. When our doctrines become internally inconsistent we need to take a much closer look.

Again, we tend to reject what we do not understand.

 

[sentipente]

Actually, that exactly what Paul said. Very good!


Again, we tend to reject what we do not understand.

Are you suggesting that Paul was the ultimate authority on this subject and that he could not have been seeing this "through a glass darkly?" If we are always present with the Lord the statement would make no sense.

 

[sentipente]

In addition, the Pauline statement also implies that those who die immediately go to be "present with the Lord." [Bible]1 Corinthians 5:3[/Bible] confuses the issue because Paul was certainly not dead in this situation where he contrasted the two.

 

[StormyOne]

So because you do not know you must reject it?


Of course not. The spirit is not brain or body though.

Stormy, this isn't a big issue for me and I doubt it is for you either, so we can drop it here if you don't mind. I don't feel the need to go into it any further and we both disagree with each other, and that's OK. What say you?

yep we can move on.... no biggie... just sharing what I believe to be the problem with the mind, body, spirit concept.....

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

No. It is the Spirit. The third person of the Godhead that lives IN us that we often neglect or make out to be simple a force or will of God.


The Holy Spirit is His own person in the Godhead. He is NOT the Father, and He is NOT the Son. He is Spirit. .

That is the problem with trinitarianism. It morphs into tritheism so easily. God is one is the Shema, It is why the Jewish religion does not support the different persons being God. If you can't understand the spirit unless you hold to a post New Testament Trinitarian formulation then we are in trouble. Especially when the trinitarian formula gets the ever present numerical ordering of the the Trinity.

Kind of interesting in this context because then based upont Trinitarian theory we could say that body, soul and spirit are equally three distinct things instead of being one whole, so in the Trinity the tritheistic view becomes the three are separate persons.

That is why I am a Modalist, there is one God who reveals Himself to man in three ways, The father as the Creator, The son, as Jesus Christ God in human forum, and as the Holy Spirit, God in transcendence active in the lives of the individual people. Never separate (as you look at the full scriptures you see all three modes of God are mentioned in such things as Creation or the incarnation) it is always the same God just different ways for people to understand the one God. God was always trying to reach people were they were so some of the things He inspired were likely meant to help people understand at their place and time. It is up to the people afterwards to grow in their understanding as we learn more about the world around us and thus more about God.

 

[moicherie]

That is the problem with trinitarianism. It morphs into tritheism so easily. God is one is the Shema, It is why the Jewish religion does not support the different persons being God. If you can't understand the spirit unless you hold to a post New Testament Trinitarian formulation then we are in trouble. Especially when the trinitarian formula gets the ever present numerical ordering of the the Trinity.

Kind of interesting in this context because then based upont Trinitarian theory we could say that body, soul and spirit are equally three distinct things instead of being one whole, so in the Trinity the tritheistic view becomes the three are separate persons.

That is why I am a Modalist, there is one God who reveals Himself to man in three ways, The father as the Creator, The son, as Jesus Christ God in human forum, and as the Holy Spirit, God in transcendence active in the lives of the individual people. Never separate (as you look at the full scriptures you see all three modes of God are mentioned in such things as Creation or the incarnation) it is always the same God just different ways for people to understand the one God. God was always trying to reach people were they were so some of the things He inspired were likely meant to help people understand at their place and time. It is up to the people afterwards to grow in their understanding as we learn more about the world around us and thus more about God.

So who said This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased was Jesus projecting His voice?

 

[StormyOne]

So who said This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased was Jesus projecting His voice?

come on Moicherie..... if God is so powerful it is not difficult for him to manifest himself in 3 different ways...that would be child's play.....

 

[JonMiller]

come on Moicherie..... if God is so powerful it is not difficult for him to manifest himself in 3 different ways...that would be child's play.....

Agreed.

JM

 

[moicherie]

come on Moicherie..... if God is so powerful it is not difficult for him to manifest himself in 3 different ways...that would be child's play.....

So Jesus is baptised and to make what point does He split Himself 3 way and decide to:-

1. Be baptised
2. While in the water turn into a dove
3. While in the water and turnning into a dove He projects His voice from the heavens


yeah and this was done for what reasons?

 

[sentipente]

So Jesus is baptised and to make what point does He split Himself 3 way and decide to:-

1. Be baptised
2. While in the water turn into a dove
3. While in the water and turnning into a dove He projects His voice from the heavens


yeah and this was done for what reasons?

The flaw comes from beginning with a human Jesus. Do you think the Creator splits Himself to be with you in England or Japan or Australia while he is with me here in the US?

 

[StormyOne]

So Jesus is baptised and to make what point does He split Himself 3 way and decide to:-

1. Be baptised
2. While in the water turn into a dove
3. While in the water and turnning into a dove He projects His voice from the heavens


yeah and this was done for what reasons?

water, ice, water vapor.... still water....

remember God said he wanted to live among humans, he did that by becoming God/man Jesus.... didn't make him any less God, but it did give humans the visual that we need....

Again, you don't think and all powerful God could express himself in 3 different ways at the same time and in the same place? Our definitions of all-powerful must be different....

 

[moicherie]

water, ice, water vapor.... still water....

remember God said he wanted to live among humans, he did that by becoming God/man Jesus.... didn't make him any less God, but it did give humans the visual that we need....

Again, you don't think and all powerful God could express himself in 3 different ways at the same time and in the same place? Our definitions of all-powerful must be different....

Why would He want to do that? I can understand three different persons - Father, Son and Spirit calling themselves God. But not one person split into three different identities and calling Himself Father,Son and Spirit is that what you are saying? Thats like you saying there are 3 different StormyOnes out there haunting the forum.

 

[sentipente]

Why would He want to do that? I can understand three different persons - Father, Son and Spirit calling themselves God. But not one person split into three different identities and calling Himself Father,Son and Spirit is that what you are saying? Thats like you saying there are 3 different StormyOnes out there haunting the forum.

Then you believe in tritheism.

 

[freeindeed2]

So Jesus is baptised and to make what point does He split Himself 3 way and decide to:-

1. Be baptised
2. While in the water turn into a dove
3. While in the water and turnning into a dove He projects His voice from the heavens


yeah and this was done for what reasons?

Exactly. And when Jesus prayed to the Father, he was really praying to himself and performing a sort of prayer gymnastics/pretend to pray thing.

And when he said he had to leave so that he could send the Spirit to live IN us...well, it's just semantics. You say potato, I say manifestation of God! Never mind what the Bible says!

And then Senti accuses you of tritheism.

 

[sentipente]

Why would Jesus tell the story of the rich man and Lazarus that He knew was completely false as far as reality is concerned? Why would He do that?