The Basis of God's Judgment

[BBAS 64]

God it is omniscient; he doesn't exist in time; he knows everything.

I'll ask you a question, should man be held accountable for the evil he commits, whether legally or morally?

Good day, Fhansen

I am not talking about God omniscient reality nor his relation to time ( true my question has a time based element.)

so here I will try again:

A quick question(s).. "he enables us, but we can still refuse."

Does he know we will refuse before or after he enables us, or does he learn after we have done so?

Answer mine first...

 

[fhansen]

Good day, Fhansen

I am not talking about God omniscient reality nor his relation to time ( true my question has a time based element.)

so here I will try again:

A quick question(s).. "he enables us, but we can still refuse."

Does he know we will refuse before or after he enables us, or does he learn after we have done so?

Answer mine first...

I'll try again; I did

 

[fhansen]

You mean that awful six letter word, "submit"? Gasp!

To the credit of "said christians", the clear word "submit" isn't mentioned all that often. I've been in the church for 51 years and submission wasn't expected in any way, sense or form. Submission seemed to exclusively be a word prepared and designed for children, while adults, elders, deacons, worship leaders and pastors are committing adultery. The Secret Gospel that is "christianity" today is rampant and few recognize it. Scary.

I don't disagree with this. The gospel is designed to cause a response in us, to give us an alternative to the world's ways, to get us to see our absolute need for God, and so subjugate ourselves to Him in a communion of love, ultimately, which is is the right order of things for man.

 

[fhansen]

So you're saying that when Jesus says "none of them will die", you're saying they will die anyway? Sorry....just want to make sure I'm not taking anyone out of context by stepping into a conversation I haven't been closely following.

Of course the elect won't die; we just don't have God's perfect foreknowledge on that one, on who they are, on who will persevere. But God's will is not done when someone perishes. There's a reason why we pray: "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." And, related to all this, when God commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, did He want Adam to eat of it?

 

[fhansen]

Not according to one of your doctors Augustine.

He goes into painful detail here:

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine)

Gets good around chapter 6 after he retracts his earlier view of synergism.

The Catholic Church doesn't accept the theological opinions of everyone just because they're Catholic, including, believe it or not, Augustine, or even Aquinas. And Augustine necessarily recognized and emphasized the absolute necessity of grace while battling Pelagianism. Augustine correctly recognized that faith does not come from man, as he had thought earlier in life, but was a matter of grace. But whether or not he remained consistent with Catholic doctrine, which understands that man's will always plays some role, however small, in that he can still resist and reject the gift of grace I'm not sure. In his famous "Sermo" 169, Augustine said this:
“He was handed over for our offenses, and He rose again for our justification (19).” What does this mean, “for our justification”? So that He might justify us; so that He might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you be a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.” (St. Augustine’s Sermon 169, 13)

God is the only one who can make us just, as opposed to Pelagiansim. The Old Covenant proves, incidentally, that man cannot make himself just. But we can refuse to be made just.

 

[Thess]

Of course the elect won't die; we just don't have God's perfect foreknowledge on that one, on who they are, on who will persevere. But God's will is not done when someone perishes. There's a reason why we pray: "They will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." And, related to all this, when God commanded Adam not to eat of the forbidden fruit, did He want Adam to eat of it?

Okie doke. I can see that jumping into the middle of conversations hasn't been working out lately for me. Once again, I'm confused through this practice. Sorry brother....small trials and tribulations for me.

 

[fhansen]

That’s the problem of equating the institutional church with born again.

You are right Jesus said there would be tares among the wheat.

For the record, I can't imagine anyone equating the institutional church with born again.

 

[redleghunter]

The Catholic Church doesn't accept the theological opinions of everyone just because they're Catholic, including, believe it or not, Augustine

So was he a doctor of the church or heretic? The Council of Orange confirmed his predestination of the elect but rejected his double predestination.

In his famous "Sermo" 169, Augustine said this:
“He was handed over for our offenses, and He rose again for our justification (19).” What does this mean, “for our justification”? So that He might justify us; so that He might make us just. You will be a work of God, not only because you are a man, but also because you are just. For it is better that you be just than that you be a man. If God made you a man, and you made yourself just, something you were doing would be better than what God did. But God made you without any cooperation on your part. For you did not lend your consent so that god could make you. How could you have consented, when you did not exist? But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.” (St. Augustine’s Sermon 169, 13)

Yes I see this a lot. This was written in 415 AD and On Predestination of the Saints Book I was written in 428-29. In the aforementioned work he retracts his semi-Pelagian former comments:

Chapter 7 [III.]— Augustine Confesses that He Had Formerly Been in Error Concerning the Grace of God.
It was not thus that that pious and humble teacher thought — I speak of the most blessed Cyprian — when he said that we must boast in nothing, since nothing is our own. And in order to show this, he appealed to the apostle as a witness, where he said, For what have you that you have not received? And if you have received it, why do you boast as if you had not received it? 1 Corinthians 4:7 And it was chiefly by this testimony that I myself also was convinced when I was in a similar error, thinking that faith whereby we believe in God is not God's gift, but that it is in us from ourselves, and that by it we obtain the gifts of God, whereby we may live temperately and righteously and piously in this world. For I did not think that faith was preceded by God's grace, so that by its means would be given to us what we might profitably ask, except that we could not believe if the proclamation of the truth did not precede; but that we should consent when the gospel was preached to us I thought was our own doing, and came to us from ourselves. And this my error is sufficiently indicated in some small works of mine written before my episcopate. Among these is that which you have mentioned in your letters wherein is an exposition of certain propositions from the Epistle to the Romans. Eventually, when I was retracting all my small works, and was committing that retractation to writing, of which task I had already completed two books before I had taken up your more lengthy letters — when in the first volume I had reached the retractation of this book, I then spoke thus:— Also discussing, I say, 'what God could have chosen in him who was as yet unborn, whom He said that the elder should serve; and what in the same elder, equally as yet unborn, He could have rejected; concerning whom, on this account, the prophetic testimony is recorded, although declared long subsequently, Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated,' I carried out my reasoning to the point of saying: 'God did not therefore choose the works of any one in foreknowledge of what He Himself would give them, but he chose the faith, in the foreknowledge that He would choose that very person whom He foreknew would believe in Him — to whom He would give the Holy Spirit, so that by doing good works he might obtain eternal life also.' I had not yet very carefully sought, nor had I as yet found, what is the nature of the election of grace, of which the apostle says, 'A remnant are saved according to the election of grace.' Romans 11:5 Which assuredly is not grace if any merits precede it; lest what is now given, not according to grace, but according to debt, be rather paid to merits than freely given. And what I next subjoined: 'For the same apostle says, The same God which works all in all; 1 Corinthians 12:6 but it was never said, God believes all in all;' and then added, 'Therefore what we believe is our own, but what good thing we do is of Him who gives the Holy Spirit to them that believe:' I certainly could not have said, had I already known that faith itself also is found among those gifts of God which are given by the same Spirit. Both, therefore, are ours on account of the choice of the will, and yet both are given by the spirit of faith and love. For faith is not alone but as it is written, 'Love with faith, from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ.' Ephesians 6:23 And what I said a little after, 'For it is ours to believe and to will, but it is His to give to those who believe and will, the power of doing good works through the Holy Spirit, by whom love is shed abroad in our hearts,'— is true indeed; but by the same rule both are also God's, because God prepares the will; and both are ours too, because they are only brought about with our good wills. And thus what I subsequently said also: 'Because we are not able to will unless we are called; and when, after our calling, we would will, our willing is not sufficiently nor our running, unless God gives strength to us that run, and leads us whither He calls us;' and thereupon added: 'It is plain, therefore, that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy, that we do good works'— this is absolutely most true. But I discovered little concerning the calling itself, which is according to God's purpose; for not such is the calling of all that are called, but only of the elect. Therefore what I said a little afterwards: 'For as in those whom God elects it is not works but faith that begins the merit so as to do good works by the gift of God, so in those whom He condemns, unbelief and impiety begin the merit of punishment, so that even by way of punishment itself they do evil works'— I spoke most truly. But that even the merit itself of faith was God's gift, I neither thought of inquiring into, nor did I say. And in another place I say: 'For whom He has mercy upon, He makes to do good works, and whom He hardens He leaves to do evil works; but that mercy is bestowed upon the preceding merit of faith, and that hardening is applied to preceding iniquity.' And this indeed is true; but it should further have been asked, whether even the merit of faith does not come from God's mercy — that is, whether that mercy is manifested in man only because he is a believer, or whether it is also manifested that he may be a believer? For we read in the apostle's words: 'I obtained mercy to be a believer.' 1 Corinthians 7:25 He does not say, 'Because I was a believer.' Therefore although it is given to the believer, yet it has been given also that he may be a believer. Therefore also, in another place in the same book I most truly said: 'Because, if it is of God's mercy, and not of works, that we are even called that we may believe and it is granted to us who believe to do good works, that mercy must not be grudged to the heathen;'— although I there discoursed less carefully about that calling which is given according to God's purpose.​

 

[redleghunter]

For the record, I can't imagine anyone equating the institutional church with born again.

The Catholic church equates baptism with being born again. Thus everyone who is baptized is born again and such as pro-abortion Ted Kennedy is treated as a member of the institutional church in life and death.

 

[fhansen]

The Catholic church equates baptism with being born again. Thus everyone who is baptized is born again and such as pro-abortion Ted Kennedy is treated as a member of the institutional church in life and death.

No, the CC doesn't presume to know one's eternal fate, or pronounce on who's personally born again and who's not. For an adult or a person who's reached the age of reason faith is an essential component, and Baptism is considered inefficacious without it. In fact, Baptism is known as the "sacrament of faith", being the first formal, public profession of it. For an infant, as long as they live long enough they are expected to live up to their baptismal vows. Initial justification doesn't ensure salvation, which must be "worked out" according to Catholic theology.

And the church reserves the right, of course, to excommunicate anyone who opposes the gospel in some serious way. None of us prefer deciding that for another, however, generally leaving these matters to God and the person involved.

 

[fhansen]

Okie doke. I can see that jumping into the middle of conversations hasn't been working out lately for me. Once again, I'm confused through this practice. Sorry brother....small trials and tribulations for me.

Ok . I know I need not to assume too much, which I have a tendency to do especially when I'm feeling a bit under attack, like lately.

 

[fhansen]

So was he a doctor of the church or heretic? The Council of Orange confirmed his predestination of the elect but rejected his double predestination.

I doubt anyone would be considered a heretic for believing in double predestination. Definitely not before the Church ruled on it. Either way, as I said, the Church isn't compelled to accept every last teaching of anyone, DOC or not.

Yes I see this a lot. This was written in 415 AD and On Predestination of the Saints Book I was written in 428-29. In the aforementioned work he retracts his semi-Pelagian former comments:

Semi-Pelagianism still maintains that faith precedes grace. Sermo 169 does not affirm this-and this is not RCC teaching either.

​

 

[fhansen]

In any case I'll maintain, as my first post here posits, that the RCC teaching regarding that which makes man just in the eyes of God best takes into account all of Scripture, while also reconciling any perceived conflict between Jesus's and Paul's teachings incidentally, and is summed up in the catechism in the words of John of the Cross:

"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[Thess]

Ok . I know I need not to assume too much, which I have a tendency to do especially when I'm feeling a bit under attack, like lately.

That made me chuckle out loud. And I hear you....I think we all thought we could come here and things would be groovy from the get-go. I get beaten down frequently, which I can handle....and probably deserve. The good news is that I get to wake up every day with an incredible "forgetter" where everyone gets to start over with me.

Your admission, by the way, inspires me to do a better job, here. I admire people that can stand tall in their "stuff" instead of running and hiding like cowards....you're the exact kind of man that God likes. I'll follow your lead.

 

[fhansen]

That made me chuckle out loud. And I hear you....I think we all thought we could come here and things would be groovy from the get-go. I get beaten down frequently, which I can handle....and probably deserve. The good news is that I get to wake up every day with an incredible "forgetter" where everyone gets to start over with me.

Your admission, by the way, inspires me to do a better job, here. I admire people that can stand tall in their "stuff" instead of running and hiding like cowards....you're the exact kind of man that God likes. I'll follow your lead.

LOL. Here I was all anticipating a broadside! Thanks Thess-that’s way beyond what I’m due I'm sure. Anyway I have to keep reminding myself that everyone here has good intentions- and are sincere in their beliefs. Thanks again.