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The Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Discussion in 'Spirit-Filled / Charismatic' started by FerventDisciple, May 10, 2014.

  1. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    I agree Jim :) well said
     
  2. mrhappy3

    mrhappy3 Well-Known Member

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    The positions on this as I understand this are as follows.

    You are born again - but can be baptised in the Spirit - with tongues.

    You are born again - but can be baptised in the Spirit - tongues can follow later or not at all after this experience.

    You are Baptised in the Spirit at conversion and are automatically open to all the gifts of the Spirit at that point.

    You are Baptised in the Spirit at conversion - but the gifts of the Spirit are no longer valid in this day and age.

    take your pick, I suppose option 4 is a no no for most of us here.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  3. mrhappy3

    mrhappy3 Well-Known Member

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    The trouble with the Baptism in the Spirit in the traditional Pentecostal sense - is that many tarry for it and then 'sit on it' - its supposed to be a power experience to enhance our witnessing - so as Billy Graham says, whats the use of getting 'more power' if it will remain redundant.
     
  4. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    #3
     
  5. mrhappy3

    mrhappy3 Well-Known Member

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    I am now at stage #2 having evolved from stage #1 LOL

    I do believe a delay in receiving the BITHS is verified by ACTS 8 (Samaritans) ACTS 9 (Paul) and Acts 19 (Ephesians).
     
  6. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    I made a post about this earlier that I will post to help explain my position to you :)

    I can't fault you for your view, I used to see it the exact same way :thumbsup:
     
  7. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    post #8 from this thread....

    I know my position is not the popular position, nor is it the well accepted one.

    I just have a hard time accepting anymore that someone can have the Holy Spirit and not have the power that Jesus said would come with Him, minus a refusing to walk with Him of course.

    Look at the accounts of how the Holy Spirit came in Acts.

    Acts 2 (the Jews) - Mighty Wind, Tongues of fire

    Acts 8 (the Samaritans) - They believed first, were baptized and had not received the Holy Spirit at all. *NOTE* saying they had the Holy Spirit as in the indwelling is reading into the text, Acts 8 says plainly they had not the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 10 (the Gentiles) - the most controversial of the groups. The Holy Spirit really had to show Peter and the believing Jews that the Gentiles were ready. So instead of people getting baptized and the likes first, He came first. Only after Peter and his entourage saw it and heard tongues did they accept the Gentiles had received the Holy Spirit in any place.

    The only other places in Acts it describes people receiving the Holy Spirit are in Acts 9 (Saul) and 19 (Ephesian believers).

    In Acts 9 with Saul, he was a Jew, the Jewish barrier had already been broken at Pentecost. So the standard line of believe and be baptized applied. Saul repented and believed, was baptized by Aeneas and received the Holy Spirit. Nothing special needed.

    In Acts 19 with the Ephesians, the Gentile barrier had already been broken. All these men had to do was believe and be baptized and they were, and they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues...

    So in the four out of the five accounts in Acts where Luke specifically mentions someone or a group receiving the Holy Spirit, they did so immediately upon believing, minus the Gentiles of 10 because again, the Jews weren't quite convinced the Gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit yet and as soon as Peter and his company saw they had, the Gentiles were baptized. In only one instance (Acts 8) is there record that a group believed first and then later received the Holy Spirit in any form.

    So now that is out of the way, let's look at some scripture references outside of Acts as to receiving the Holy Spirit in the New Testament:

    "On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, 'Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.'" Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified." Joh 7:37-39 (ESV)

    "for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith." Gal 3:26 (ESV)

    "And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"" Gal 4:6 (ESV)

    "For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"" Rom 8:15 (ESV)

    "For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands, for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control." 2Ti 1:6-7 (ESV)

    "Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?" Gal 3:2 (ESV)

    "Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—" Gal 3:5 (ESV)

    "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit," Eph 1:13 (ESV)

    These are some of the most predominant scriptures in the NT about receiving the Holy Spirit. Notice the predominant theme in each. That those who believe in Jesus would receive the Holy Spirit, a Spirit of power, love, and self-discipline. Paul emphasizes this! That all with the Spirit have power and experience God's power through the Spirit. And again, we receive the Spirit when we believe, completely and fully I think scripture backs this up.

    If it were a double receiving if you will, then why are there not more teachings on such a doctrine? I mean Paul went to GREAT lengths to teach others about the Holy Spirit and never once does he mention a double receiving. The only vague reference to such a doctrine is Eph 5:18 and that can be interpretted as I had made in the above post.

    That as Christ Himself said to abide in Him (John 15:4-5), so to is this likened to walking with the Spirit (Gal 5:16-18) and being full of the Spirit (Eph 5:18) because all three expressions are to be done continually. We abide in Jesus by believing (Col 2:6; 1 John 3:23-24), and we receive the Holy Spirit when we believe (see above) so surely if we must continually abide in Him, we also will be walking with the Spirit in the fullness of the Spirit. They are all linked to believing, just as you received Christ Jesus so walk in Him (Colossians 2:6)

    So this is why I believe receiving the Holy Spirit, including the power, come at the moment of faith, saving faith. I will concede that it may depend on the maturity of the believer and where they are focused as to whether they experience the gifts in a lesser or greater degree, but the gift is there. We are instructed to "fan that gift into flames" (2 Tim 1:6)
     
  8. mrhappy3

    mrhappy3 Well-Known Member

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    I get your drift bro. People will say Paul wrote to believers who he believed had the 'full package' anyway - AKA Acts 2v38.

    But that would speculation on his part.

    Ephesians 1v13 does it for me - to prove all those that TRULY BELIEVE get the Holy Spirit.(in some measure at least). (Jesus had it 'without measure').

    The Samaritans believed and were baptised and had 'not yet received the Spirit' - so in what sense was this ? Well it states, it had 'fallen UPON none of them' - so the only conclusion must be - if you believe this - the Spirit can come IN but is yet to come UPON). Otherwise they were not proper believers or Ephesians 1v13 means something else.

    Its an amazing debate actually.

    Respect x
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  9. tturt

    tturt Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

    This might interest you - it's about baptisms.

    3 baptisms:

    1- The Holy Spirit baptizes us in Jesus (salvation).

    2- The disciples baptized in water Matt 28:19

    3. (In/With) Matt 3:11 John the Baptist is speaking of Jesus - He will baptize you with The Holy Spirit and fire.

    Pastor Robert Morris Receiving the Holy Spirit - Pastor Robert Morris - YouTube
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
  10. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. (Hebrews 6:2 ESV)

    Washings - Gr 909 baptimos

    baptismos: (the act of) a dipping or washing
    Original Word: βαπτισμός, οῦ, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: baptismos
    Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tis-mos')
    Short Definition: dipping, washing
    Definition: dipping, washing (of a ceremonial character).

    βαπτισμός, βαπτισμου, ὁ (βαπτίζω), a washing, purification effected by means of water: Mark 7:4, 8 (R G L Tr in brackets) (ξεστῶν καί ποτηρίων); of the washings prescribed by the Mosaic law, Hebrews 9:10. βαπτισμῶν διδαχῆς equivalent to διδαχῆς περί βαπτισμῶν, Hebrews 6:2 (where L text, WH text, βαπτισμῶν διδαχῆς), which seems to mean an exposition of the difference between the washings prescribed by the Mosaic law and Christian baptism. (Among secular writings Josephus alone, Antiquities 18, 5, 2, uses the word, and of John's baptism; (respecting its interchange with βάπτισμα cf. examples in Sophocles Lexicon, under the word 2 and Lightfoot on Colossians 2:12, where L marginal reading Tr read βαπτισμός; cf. Trench, § xcix.).)
    Strong's Greek: 909. βαπτισμός (baptismos) -- (the act of) a dipping or washing

    Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (John 4:1 ESV)

    baptizing - Gr 907 baptizo

    And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38 ESV)

    baptized - Gr 907 baptizo

    Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16 ESV)

    baptized - Gr 907 baptizo

    Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 28:19 ESV)

    baptizing - Gr 907 baptizo

    On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Acts 19:5 ESV)

    baptized - Gr 907 baptizo

    BAPTIZO
    baptizó: to dip, sink
    Original Word: βαπτίζω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: baptizó
    Phonetic Spelling: (bap-tid'-zo)
    Short Definition: I dip, submerge, baptize
    Definition: lit: I dip, submerge, but specifically of ceremonial dipping; I baptize.


    1. properly, to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge (of vessels sunk, Polybius 1, 51, 6; 8, 8, 4; of animals, Diodorus 1, 36).

    2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water; in the middle and the 1 aorist passive to wash oneself, bathe; so Mark 7:4 (where WH text ῥαντισωνται); Luke 11:38 (2 Kings 5:14 ἐβαπτίσατο ἐν τῷ Ιορδάνῃ, for טָבַל; Sir. 31:30 (Sir. 34:30; Judith 12:7).

    II. In the N. T. it is used particularly of the rite of sacred ablution, first instituted by John the Baptist, afterward by Christ's command received by Christians and adjusted to the contents and nature of their religion (see βάπτισμα, 3), viz., an immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin, and administered to those who, impelled by a desire for salvation, sought admission to the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom; (for patristic references respecting the mode, ministrant, subjects, etc. of the rite, cf. Sophocles Lexicon, under the word; Dict. of Chris. Antiq. under the word Baptism).
    Strong's Greek: 907. βαπτίζω (baptizó) -- to dip, sink

    the Greek 909 baptismos seems to be only used in relation to the Jewish act of baptism and purification, indeed the word is only used 5 times in the NT.... While the Greek 907 baptizo, is used in almost every reference to Christian baptism and even John's baptism... So Hebrews 6:2 as you quote above is not an accurate way to defend the water baptism and then Spirit baptism as you are attempting to. Indeed only once is the Greek 909 used in reference to an act of baptism and not ritual washings and that is in Col 2:12... The other four are in reference to ritual washings of pots or whichever. I just don't buy it...
     
  11. JimB

    JimB Legend

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    I hate to disagree with Mr. Morris (though not really ;) ), but there is only one baptism, Eph. 4.5—the baptism of the Spirit by which a believer is inducted (baptized) into the body of Christ and of which water baptism is a symbol. There are not three separate baptisms but one, as Eph. 4.5 tells us. The baptisms (plural) that Hebrews 6.2 mentions are not Christian baptisms at all, but purification rites practiced by Jewish (Hebrew) Christians—“With teachings about purifying, the laying on of hands, the resurrection from the dead, and eternal judgment and punishment. These are all matters of which you should have been fully aware long, long ago,” Heb. 6.2, AmpV (see also the ESV, CJB, CEB, HCSB, NAS, RSV, and a host of other contemporary translations).

    Remember, the writer of Hebrews was addressing Jewish Christians familiar with Jewish practices, of which they were familiar, but of which he urged them to move on to less elemental things. :)
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2014
  12. Receiver

    Receiver Guest

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    There's always a market for alternatives
     

    Attached Files:

  13. JimB

    JimB Legend

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    Of course, then there are those who will cling to a bad translation because the real truth upsets their comfortable little boat. Anyhow, it beats thinking.;)
     
  14. FerventDisciple

    FerventDisciple Selah

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    I'm leaning towards option 3. I do wonder though, can we have the gifts we desire or even all of them or is it as we seek the Holy Spirit He gives as He wills?

    Great posts guys, I know despite starting this thread I haven't posted much in it but I can honestly say I don't know for sure right now so I've just been following along the debate. It wasn't until the Strange Fire conference that I outright rejected cessationism (yes John MacArthur's conference had the opposite effect he intended, upon me anyway) despite always being in Pentecostal or Charismatic Churches. But it spurred me to see if what he was saying was biblical and I couldn't find his position in the text.
     
  15. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    my position on the gifts, and take it for what it's worth, is that instead of the Holy Spirit giving just one gift to each believer (as the traditional Pentecostal doctrine I was taught holds) I believe each believer has the ability to operate in any gift the Holy Spirit offers because they have the Holy Spirit. He is the source behind the gifts, so all the gifts can operate. This way if you are out ministering, and someone has a need for healing, it's not like: "Oh well, my gift is not healing so I can't help you."

    Now perhaps there is another option. Instead of each believer getting only one gift and thats it, or each believer has access to all gifts, what if:

    In a traditional church setting, each believer has an assigned gift and then when believers are out in world doing what they do they have access to every gift so that every need can be met. So in church, one gift per believer, in the world, any gift to any believer.... Just a thought... So like a hybrid of both...

    I just think what I started this post with is more accurate...
     
  16. mrhappy3

    mrhappy3 Well-Known Member

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    In its context the teaching that certain gifts are given in a Church setting is plain from scripture - but to say out in the highways and byways we can access them all is somewhat of a contradiction. We either have access to the gifts ALL the time or we don't. The Church is the called out ones anyway. I will say this - I KNOW WHERE MY CONFIDENCE LIES IN RELATION TO THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT AND I KNOW WHERE IT DOESN'T. For example, I have often prayed for the sick with in my opinion, little success (as far as I know) But If the gift of FAITH is required, I just take off.:)
     
  17. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    It's really not a contradiction. But ok..

    As I said when I started that post, I believe every believer has access to all the gifts... Otherwise Paul would not have told them to earnestly desire the giftS, especially prophecy... If he was really teaching each only gets one and that's it, why even include such a statement? See what I mean.
     
  18. mrhappy3

    mrhappy3 Well-Known Member

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    True.
     
  19. GoldenKingGaze

    GoldenKingGaze Prevent Slavery, support the persecuted.

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    how many follow Derek Prince's teaching?
     
  20. Receiver

    Receiver Guest

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    What is that?
     
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