The Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[Receiver]

What Men Say

For centuries, many people who professed faith in Jesus were assumed to be "born again".
People seeking God were told to sincerely “pray the sinners prayer” or “accept Jesus into your hearts”
or confess “the apostles creed” or similar, and as such were judged to have received the Spirit of God.
At the beginning of the 20th Century, unprecedented numbers of people began having the experience
that matched the original bible accounts of receiving the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in
tongues. This did not fit accepted theology and was often branded false (and still is by "Jehovah's
Witnesses" and "Brethren").

As the experience became more common, many religious leaders modified their position
- they split the receiving of the Holy Spirit into two parts.
They taught we are "born again" (we receive the Holy Spirit / salvation) as soon as we say
we believe (or make a confession), and later we can be "baptised in the Holy Spirit" as a
"second blessing", a non-essential extra for those who liked or felt the need for "that sort of thing".
The result was two types of "Christian", those baptised in the Spirit, speaking in tongues, and those not.


What The Bible Says

"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3v5-6)

Here, the word "washing" means a complete washing, or baptism, similarly "abundantly" means
NOT by measure / not in part.
So, God only gives the fullness of his Spirit, no-one receives part-measure.
The Spirit was not partly in the disciples before Pentecost, Jesus plainly told them:-
"the Spirit . . . shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." (John 14:17,20)

The Holy Spirit "was not given" until Pentecost. Here, Jesus "shed forth" the Spirit from heaven,
(John 7v37-39, Acts 2v33). This is from above ("born again" literally means born from above).
Jesus had already referred to this as being “baptised in the Spirit” (Acts 1v4-5)
and receiving “the promise".
In Acts 11v14-15 (the gentiles) it is referred to as "the beginning" (birth is the beginning).
So, a person has not “received Jesus” until they have been baptised in his Spirit (see also Romans 8:8-9).


Conclusion

There is one experience of receiving the Holy Spirit also known as the baptism in the Holy Spirit
and being born again. These are synonymous terms for receiving the salvation of God.

Man has lost his way, but God's answer is simple and certain.


Some Other Points

1) In Acts 8v12-18 we read of people who believed what they had heard about Jesus, but it was known that they had not received the Holy Spirit. So, believing in and confessing Jesus does not mean you are born again.

2) Similarly, the believers who Paul baptised in Acts 19v5-6 were known not to have received the Spirit, that's why Paul prayed for them until they did receive.

3) “by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” (1 Corinthians12v13)
- The baptism in the Spirit is how God adds people to his church, there is no such thing as a Christian who is not a member of God's church!
A person not baptised in the Spirit simply isn't a Christian yet.
We are "made to drink" as we speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

 

[Optimus Fortis]

I disagree that they were baptized into Jesus, because Paul told them...

And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” (Acts 19:4 ESV)

John's baptism (of which these Ephesians had taken part) was the people showing they had repented and would believe in the One to come. Paul even had to tell these men who that one to come was, Jesus. How could they have been baptized into Christ if they didn't even know who Jesus was? Saying what you did ^^^ is reading into the text what isn't there. As soon as Paul taught them about Jesus, they were then baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Spirit.

I see what you mean.

As you said above, there is no point getting bogged down on the timing.

I was not likely to receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost when I first believed for salvation as this occurred in a Presbyterian setting!

As I have read on CF, the Calvinists would say that my spirit was regenerated and given faith before I believed!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

What Men Say

For centuries, many people who professed faith in Jesus were assumed to be "born again".
People seeking God were told to sincerely “pray the sinners prayer” or “accept Jesus into your hearts”
or confess “the apostles creed” or similar, and as such were judged to have received the Spirit of God.
At the beginning of the 20th Century, unprecedented numbers of people began having the experience
that matched the original bible accounts of receiving the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in
tongues. This did not fit accepted theology and was often branded false (and still is by "Jehovah's
Witnesses" and "Brethren").

As the experience became more common, many religious leaders modified their position
- they split the receiving of the Holy Spirit into two parts.
They taught we are "born again" (we receive the Holy Spirit / salvation) as soon as we say
we believe (or make a confession), and later we can be "baptised in the Holy Spirit" as a
"second blessing", a non-essential extra for those who liked or felt the need for "that sort of thing".
The result was two types of "Christian", those baptised in the Spirit, speaking in tongues, and those not.


What The Bible Says

"he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour" (Titus 3v5-6)

Here, the word "washing" means a complete washing, or baptism, similarly "abundantly" means
NOT by measure / not in part.
So, God only gives the fullness of his Spirit, no-one receives part-measure.
The Spirit was not partly in the disciples before Pentecost, Jesus plainly told them:-
"the Spirit . . . shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." (John 14:17,20)

The Holy Spirit "was not given" until Pentecost. Here, Jesus "shed forth" the Spirit from heaven,
(John 7v37-39, Acts 2v33). This is from above ("born again" literally means born from above).
Jesus had already referred to this as being “baptised in the Spirit” (Acts 1v4-5)
and receiving “the promise".
In Acts 11v14-15 (the gentiles) it is referred to as "the beginning" (birth is the beginning).
So, a person has not “received Jesus” until they have been baptised in his Spirit (see also Romans 8:8-9).


Conclusion

There is one experience of receiving the Holy Spirit also known as the baptism in the Holy Spirit
and being born again. These are synonymous terms for receiving the salvation of God.

Man has lost his way, but God's answer is simple and certain.


Some Other Points

1) In Acts 8v12-18 we read of people who believed what they had heard about Jesus, but it was known that they had not received the Holy Spirit. So, believing in and confessing Jesus does not mean you are born again.

2) Similarly, the believers who Paul baptised in Acts 19v5-6 were known not to have received the Spirit, that's why Paul prayed for them until they did receive.

3) “by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” (1 Corinthians12v13)
- The baptism in the Spirit is how God adds people to his church, there is no such thing as a Christian who is not a member of God's church!
A person not baptised in the Spirit simply isn't a Christian yet.
We are "made to drink" as we speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

This almost sounds like Oneness doctrine...

Facts are when a person believes in Christ they are saved. They receive the Spirit at that time (Eph 1:13-14; Gal 3:1-6; 1 John 3:23-24) the issue of disagreeance here is does that constitute "the Baptism" or not...

Your position above seemingly takes it to far.

 

[Receiver]

Facts are when a person believes in Christ they are saved.

Making bald statements like this is a waste of time.
You need to do as I did and show from scripture what these phrases mean, otherwise they become empty words.

Jesus says that "believers" in him would receive His Spirit, know the day when they do and have signs following. They certainly did and do as my pervious post proves.

They receive the Spirit at that time (Eph 1:13-14; Gal 3:1-6; 1 John 3:23-24) the issue of disagreeance here is does that constitute "the Baptism" or not...

Eph. 1:13-14 says
"after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"

and refers back to Acts 19 where the people believed what Paul said about Jesus and agreed to be re-baptised unto Jesus, but Paul know, and they accepted that they still had not received the Holy Spirit, so they allowed Paul to lay hands on them
It was known precisely when they received by the initial sign of speaking in tongues.

"v4-5:Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
v6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

In fact, read also v2 where Paul begins by saying:

This shows:
1) just because a person believes doesn't mean they have received the Spirit
2) there must be a way of knowing you have received the Spirit!

Galatians 3 the Spirit is receuived through faith, but what faith?
The original faith in Jesus as one who gives new Life!
Simon the Sorceror and the rest in Acts 8:12-16 "believed", according to you they therefore have the Spirit! Bible says the opposite!

1 John 3:23-24 is written to people who have already received the Spirit.
Do you really understand what "believe on the name" means?
Acts 2:21 (the beginning) says people need to "call on the name" to be saved, do you know what this is referring to?

Your position above seemingly takes it to far.

No, I'm faithful to the scriptures, your position is a gospel that tells people they are saved when they havn't received the new life!

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Ok here ya go...

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved Acts 16:31
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. (Romans 10:9, 10 NIV)
For by grace are you saved through FAITH Eph 2:8
Very truly I say to you those who believe in me have eternal life. John 6:47

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25, 26 NIV)

Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved Romans 10:13

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. (1 John 5:1-5 NIV)

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Do I really need to post more???

 

[NorrinRadd]

...

Eph. 1:13-14 says
"after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise"

Yeah, KJV and NKJV say that. The translations I actually USE do NOT say that.

 

[Receiver]

Ok here ya go...

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved Acts 16:31

If you read the next verse you will see that they found it necessary to explain what it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", i.e. they would have explained that this means you will call upon Him to receive His Spirit and speak in tongues, as Jesus says "believers" will, and as those same apostles waited for earlier in Acts.

Your use of scripture is well, various words come to mind, but let's just say wrong. You pick a verse then interpret it to mean what you have already decided to believe, instead of fitting it in with the other verses on the same subject. In fact you are using one verse to deny others.

I shall spend no more time reasoning with you.
As Mark Twain observed: "you cannot reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into".

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Jesus converted Peter, James and John... and John the baptist said one greater than I will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and Fire.

Only after the resurrection comes Pentecost and the disciples become apostles and speak in tongues of men, and later angels, prophesy and interpret tongues.

The early church perhaps by the 9th century, lost adult conversion as a focus with infant baptism, and, the gift of tongues and the all important prophesying.

But for those who sought like St Francis and also Martin Luther, there was the grace of conversion.

I suppose from dipping in in surrender they could draw out salvation and maybe gifts. But some people only produce spiritual gifts when there is a charismatic meeting and the gifts are asked for, with the laying on of hands.

Baptism means immersion, that comes from without and above.

 

[Receiver]

Yeah, KJV and NKJV say that. The translations I actually USE do NOT say that.

If you think about the narrative in Acts 19 you will see that they didn't receive the Spirit as soon as they professed faith in Jesus to get baptised, see also Acts 8:12-16.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

If you read the next verse you will see that they found it necessary to explain what it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", i.e. they would have explained that this means you will call upon Him to receive His Spirit and speak in tongues, as Jesus says "believers" will, and as those same apostles waited for earlier in Acts.

Your use of scripture is well, various words come to mind, but let's just say wrong. You pick a verse then interpret it to mean what you have already decided to believe, instead of fitting it in with the other verses on the same subject. In fact you are using one verse to deny others.

I shall spend no more time reasoning with you.
As Mark Twain observed: "you cannot reason a person out of a position they didn't reason themselves into".

What's funny about this is I did not interpret any of those verses I posted... I merely posted several different passages including the words of Jesus Himself without any interjection on my part. So I'm not seeing how my interpretation is flawed when I gave no such thing. Anyways, grow in grace...

 

[Boidae]

This almost sounds like Oneness doctrine...

Facts are when a person believes in Christ they are saved. They receive the Spirit at that time (Eph 1:13-14; Gal 3:1-6; 1 John 3:23-24) the issue of disagreeance here is does that constitute "the Baptism" or not...

Your position above seemingly takes it to far.

Only By, you can read about the doctrine that receiver follows here: http://www.trf.org.au/default.asp.

They believe that unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved.

 

[Andrea411]

There has been so much said on the subject and clearly we won't be able to convince everyone of one doctrine on this matter. I think the Lord fills as He desires and as we submit… it is a continual process. Like water, if we are thirsty and ask to drink, He gives us more. If we never get thirsty we won't drink…

I pray "Lord may I thirst after You alone… always. Fill me anew."

God bless, andrea

 

[JimB]

I disagree that they were baptized into Jesus, because Paul told them...

And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” (Acts 19:4 ESV)

John's baptism (of which these Ephesians had taken part) was the people showing they had repented and would believe in the One to come. Paul even had to tell these men who that one to come was, Jesus. How could they have been baptized into Christ if they didn't even know who Jesus was? Saying what you did ^^^ is reading into the text what isn't there. As soon as Paul taught them about Jesus, they were then baptized in Jesus name and received the Holy Spirit.

We are all guilty of reading into biblical texts what is not there. I am sure I do that. Anyhow, the way I read Acts 19, Paul was astounded that the “Christians” he met in Ephesus had not yet been baptized into the Body of Christ and so were not even converted. They were “believers” only in the sense that they believed in John’s baptism of repentance. They had not even heard of the Holy Spirit, much less were baptized/inducted by the Spirit into the Body of Christ (of which Christ’s baptism in water was a symbol of). Once Paul cleared up their confusion, he laid his hands on them and they were baptized again in water, filled (not baptized) with the Holy Spirit when the “Spirit came upon them,” and were at the same moment inducted (baptized by the Spirit) into Christ’s Body.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

We are all guilty of reading into biblical texts what is not there. I am sure I do that. Anyhow, the way I read Acts 19, Paul was astounded that the “Christians” he met in Ephesus had not yet been baptized into the Body of Christ and so were not even converted. They were “believers” only in the sense that they believed in John’s baptism of repentance. They had not even heard of the Holy Spirit, much less were baptized/inducted by the Spirit into the Body of Christ (of which Christ’s baptism in water was a symbol of). Once Paul cleared up their confusion, he laid his hands on them and they were baptized again in water, filled (not baptized) with the Holy Spirit when the “Spirit came upon them,” and were at the same moment inducted (baptized by the Spirit) into Christ’s Body.

I agree

 

[murjahel]

We are all guilty of reading into biblical texts what is not there. I am sure I do that. Anyhow, the way I read Acts 19, Paul was astounded that the “Christians” he met in Ephesus had not yet been baptized into the Body of Christ and so were not even converted. They were “believers” only in the sense that they believed in John’s baptism of repentance. They had not even heard of the Holy Spirit, much less were baptized/inducted by the Spirit into the Body of Christ (of which Christ’s baptism in water was a symbol of). Once Paul cleared up their confusion, he laid his hands on them and they were baptized again in water, filled (not baptized) with the Holy Spirit when the “Spirit came upon them,” and were at the same moment inducted (baptized by the Spirit) into Christ’s Body.

No, I disagree... respectfully, it is very clear in what I see the passage says...
Acts 19:1-7 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples (they were saved, and "disciples")
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? (they have argued for decades over whether the word 'since' should be 'when', but either way, they had already become believers) And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (it was the baptism of the Holy Spirit that they had not heard of, they had heard of Jesus, of John the Baptist's message of repentance, and had been saved already)
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism (John's baptism was in water, immersing them at the time of repentance).
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after Him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [/B](the baptism of John was a bit different now in the early church, the creed needed to be agreed to that the church had written up, we know it as the 'apostles creed', and then they could be baptized into the church of Jesus, so this is why the water baptism part was repeated. Their first baptism was in 'John's baptism', and the second one was in Jesus... the one prophesied by John now had come, and this was baptism into Him.).
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. (this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues as on the day of Pentecost)
7 And all the men were about twelve.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

murjahel - I notice the only verse above that you didn't care to elaborate on is the verse that unravels your view on the passage... Verse 4

And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” (Acts 19:4 ESV)

If these men had only received John's baptism that means they had only received water baptism as a sign of their repentance. Now, as Paul taught them, they needed to believe in Jesus. Once these men realized that, they were baptized in Christ and filled with the Spirit.

If they had already received Christ then Paul wasted words with them and rebaptized them in Jesus. Something I don't ever see Paul doing, nor think he would have agreed such a thing was necessary.

 

[JimB]

No, I disagree... respectfully, it is very clear in what I see the passage says...
Acts 19:1-7 (KJV)
1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples (they were saved, and "disciples")
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? (they have argued for decades over whether the word 'since' should be 'when', but either way, they had already become believers) And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (it was the baptism of the Holy Spirit that they had not heard of, they had heard of Jesus, of John the Baptist's message of repentance, and had been saved already)
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism (John's baptism was in water, immersing them at the time of repentance).
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after Him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [/B](the baptism of John was a bit different now in the early church, the creed needed to be agreed to that the church had written up, we know it as the 'apostles creed', and then they could be baptized into the church of Jesus, so this is why the water baptism part was repeated. Their first baptism was in 'John's baptism', and the second one was in Jesus... the one prophesied by John now had come, and this was baptism into Him.).
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. (this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues as on the day of Pentecost)
7 And all the men were about twelve.

And I respectfully disagree with you.

Matt. 9.14; 11.2; Mark 2.18; Luke 5.33; 7.18; etc. mentions “disciples” of John; Acts 20.30 mentions “disciples” of grievous wolves that creep into the church unaware. A disciple is simply a learner, a follower of a rabbi or teacher. A “disciple” does not necessarily mean a “brother.” In Acts 19.1 it is obvious (to me) that these Ephesians were disciples of John, but not yet disciples of Jesus Christ, but only had a rudimentary knowledge of him. The question Paul asked in vs.2—“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” (ESV)—may have been asked rhetorically to inquire as to level of their faith. When they responded that they did not have a clue about the Holy Spirit, it was obvious then that they were on the right road but had not yet arrived at saving faith in Christ, so Paul preached Christ to them (vs.4), they received Christ, the Spirit baptized them into the body of Christ and “came upon” (i.e., filled) them. And they spoke with tongues. The fact that they spoke with tongues is incidental to me and simply shows that at the moment of their conversion they also received God’s enablements (giftings) which was manifested at that moment in tongues (it could have been prophecy, Acts 2.18; 19.6, or they preached with boldness, Acts 4.31, or for that matter any other gift of the Spirit, 1 Cor.12.11.