The Bad News of the Good News

[Bible2]

The "Good News", as in the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
is good news only to those who believe it (John
3:36a, Mark 16:16a); it's pretty bad news to those
who don't believe it (John 3:36b, Mark 16:16b).

It's the "Bad News" part of the Gospel which often
fails to get preached, even though it's an integral
part of the true Gospel.

Some preach the "Good News" that anyone can receive
eternal life. But it's not true that anyone can
receive eternal life because eternal life requires
faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:36a), and God the
Father doesn't grant everyone such faith (John
6:44,65, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 2:8). It's only
the vessels of God's mercy who can receive eternal
life; the vessels of God's wrath have no chance of
ever receiving eternal life (Romans 9:18-23,
Revelation 14:10-11). Of course, there is no way
for us to know who is a vessel of God's mercy and
who is a vessel of His wrath, so we still must
preach the Gospel to everyone (Mark 16:15).

Some preach the "Good News" that receiving eternal
life doesn't require the mediation of any human.
But receiving eternal life does require the
mediation of a human: Jesus Christ, and only Jesus
Christ (1 Timothy 2:5, Romans 5:15, John 14:6,
Acts 4:12).

Some preach the "Good News" that receiving eternal
life doesn't require any rituals. But receiving
eternal life does require three rituals: water-
immersion baptism, Holy-Spirit baptism (usually
received through the laying on of hands), and
Communion (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-5,
Acts 2:38, 22:16, John 3:5, Acts 19:2a,6, 8:15-17,
John 6:53-54, Matthew 26:26-28).

Some preach the "Good News" that receiving eternal
life doesn't require any good works. But receiving
eternal life does require good works (James 2:24,
Titus 1:16, Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9b, Romans
2:6-7).

Some preach the "Good News" of "Once saved always
saved", that salvation can never be lost. But
salvation can be lost by continuing in unrepentant
sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 13:3), or by committing
apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), or by refusing to do any
good works (Matthew 25:26a,30), or by worshipping the
Antichrist and his image and receiving his mark
(Revelation 14:9-13).

So the whole Gospel needs to be preached, including
all the "Bad News" which is such an integral part
of it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Some preach the "Good News" that receiving eternal
life doesn't require any rituals. But receiving
eternal life does require three rituals: water-
immersion baptism, Holy-Spirit baptism (usually
received through the laying on of hands), and
Communion (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-5,
Acts 2:38, 22:16, John 3:5, Acts 19:2a,6, 8:15-17,
John 6:53-54, Matthew 26:26-28).

Hi and great thread. I myself do not preach any of those and I feel those "types/shadows" have passed away.
Love God and others is the main message I like to get across, then have them read the Bible, perhaps even staying away from a church for a few months until they have read it thru a few times.
That is my view anyway. Peace.

 

[Harry3142]

Salvation cannot be earned. Jesus Christ himself told us that even if we do everything we should do, while refusing to do everything we should not do, we have earned nothing whatsoever:

"Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'? Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink: after that you may eat and drink'? Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do? So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.' " (The Gospel According to St. Luke 17:7-10,NIV)

But there was no one except Jesus Christ himself who was able to acheive the requirement which God demands of all who would enter his presence on their own merit. So The Author of Justice , God the Father, gave us the opportunity to attain salvation through his efforts rather than our own:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are judtified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

That is the means of our salvation, and it is a salvation which is bestowed on us by God himself if we only accept it. Our salvation has already been earned for us in its entirety; God the Father and Jesus Christ his Son did all the work necessary for our salvation, and now offer this salvation to us freely.

As for the works which some say we must perform in order to remain saved, the truth of the matter is that we have been told to let God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, work through us rather than our doing the work ourselves:

"So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law."

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God."

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

The New Person is not one who adopts a set of do's and don't's; he/ she is a person who has given the Holy Spirit his space within us so that he can do the work that is to be done. We are just the instruments which he uses to accomplish that work; that is why we have no cause for boasting, irregardless of the work.

 

[Strong in Him]

The "Good News", as in the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
is good news only to those who believe it (John
3:36a, Mark 16:16a); it's pretty bad news to those
who don't believe it (John 3:36b, Mark 16:16b).

Not exactly. If person doesn't believe it, they don't believe it. It simply will not impact their lives.
I don't believe in Father Christmas or the tooth fairy. The fact that my nephews tell me that both exist, is not "bad news" for me - I don't believe in them.
If a person refuses to believe, or accept, the Good News, continues to do so and dies having deliberately rejected God's amazing love and gift of Grace, THEN they will come to see that their rejection of God was bad news.

Some preach the "Good News" that anyone can receive
eternal life. But it's not true that anyone can
receive eternal life because eternal life requires
faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:36a), and God the
Father doesn't grant everyone such faith (John
6:44,65, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 2:8). It's only
the vessels of God's mercy who can receive eternal
life; the vessels of God's wrath have no chance of
ever receiving eternal life (Romans 9:18-23,
Revelation 14:10-11). Of course, there is no way
for us to know who is a vessel of God's mercy and
who is a vessel of His wrath, so we still must
preach the Gospel to everyone (Mark 16:15).

God wants everyone to be saved - 2 Peter 3:10 says that God doesn't want anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance. Not everyone will; some will choose to reject him. But all that's required is to say to him "help me, Lord", or "Lord, I believe help me in my unbelief", or "Jesus, save me"; and the Lord Jesus has promised that he will never turn away anyone who comes to him. You don't need perfect faith to come to him, you just need to come.

I don't think I could believe in a God who says; I created you, I made you in my image but I am choosing not to show you my love or grace or grant you salvation. Is a God who is love capable of creating a person and condeming that person to hell - eternal death - before (s)he has even begun their physical life? That is bad news about God. I don' think such a teaching would attract anyone, if it were true, but I don't believe it is.

Some preach the "Good News" that receiving eternal
life doesn't require any rituals. But receiving
eternal life does require three rituals: water-
immersion baptism, Holy-Spirit baptism (usually
received through the laying on of hands), and
Communion (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-5,
Acts 2:38, 22:16, John 3:5, Acts 19:2a,6, 8:15-17,
John 6:53-54, Matthew 26:26-28).

Not true. You've just said that eternal life requires only Jesus. HE saves, no one and nothing else can. A person can repent on their death bed and die unbaptised; they have still passed from death to life, have been reconciled with God and been born again.

The Salvation Army don't have communion services, though they may occasionally receive it at other churches, and don't baptise new Christians. Our local SA officers resigned after they were told by their HQ not to baptise new Christians, and they refused to comply. Do SA officers and soldiers not have eternal life?

Some preach the "Good News" that receiving eternal
life doesn't require any good works. But receiving
eternal life does require good works (James 2:24,
Titus 1:16, Matthew 7:21, Hebrews 5:9b, Romans
2:6-7).

No it doesn't. We do good works because we love God and want to serve him. We love Jesus, so we obey his commandments. We don't have to obey his commandments in order to get/win/earn his love. Our good deeds show our faith in and love for him, we don't do them to get him to love us.
That is not the free gift of salvation given by the Grace of God, that is earning our eternal life by the things we do. How much would we have to do anyway - how would we know when we have done enough good works to be awarded eternal life? And what about those who are disabled, paralysed, in a coma, or who have learning disabilities? They may well be severely limited by the number of good works they can do, and some may not be able to do any at all. Can they not receive eternal life? Does the God who is love say; bad luck, it may not be your fault you are disabled, but you can't do the work needed for eternal life, so I can't save you?

So the whole Gospel needs to be preached, including
all the "Bad News" which is such an integral part
of it.

The only bad news for some people is that no matter how clever, good, rich, educated they may be, their good works are not enough to get them to heaven; they are sinners and have to trust Jesus for Salvation.

JESUS saves - not speaking in tongues, baptism, good works, correct church ritual etc etc. If any of these things saved, we wouldn't need Jesus. Jesus said that no one goes to the Father except through him, he is the gate for the sheep, he gives eternal life to all those who call upon his name and turn to him.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Ah... yes... another "some are meant to be saved by God, and some God selected to come to this earth, and be damned to hell from their very conception, because God created the first to be saved, but created the others to roast" thread.

When people will learn that perfect, pre-knowledge doesn't equate predestination, I don't know.

that doesn't describe a God, it describes a devil, one who would create specifically to send them to Hell? God states clearly he desires the salvation of all men... and he KNOWS that it won't be. He knows who will and who won't. That doesn't mean he forced them to be unrepentant sinners!

It's utter foolishness.

 

[E.C.]

God's the judge who decides who goes where when we're done in this life.


Don't make God go to an unemployment office by taking His job and playing God.

 

[Bible2]

LittleLambofJesus posted in message #2:

"[Originally Posted by Bible2]
Some preach the 'Good News' that receiving eternal
life doesn't require any rituals. But receiving
eternal life does require three rituals: water-
immersion baptism, Holy-Spirit baptism (usually
received through the laying on of hands), and
Communion (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-5,
Acts 2:38, 22:16, John 3:5, Acts 19:2a,6, 8:15-17,
John 6:53-54, Matthew 26:26-28)."

Hi and great thread. I myself do not preach any of
those and I feel those "types/shadows" have passed
away.
Love God and others is the main message I like to
get across, then have them read the Bible, perhaps
even staying away from a church for a few months
until they have read it thru a few times.
That is my view anyway. Peace.

Loving God is defined as obeying God (1 John 5:3,
John 14:21-24). We are saved by our obedience to
Him (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21), and He commands
Baptism and Communion (Matthew 28:19-20, 26:26-28).
We have to continue to obey His Gospel Word and not
forsake it as having somehow "passed away" (John
8:31b; 2 Timothy 4:2-4), for His Gospel Word will
never pass away (1 Peter 1:25, Matthew 24:35).

The Gospel isn't "types/shadows" which have passed
away; it is only the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic
law (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15) which was a
type and shadow (Hebrews 10:1, Colossians 2:16-17),
of the New Covenant (New Testament) Gospel law of
Christ (2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 6:2;
1 Thessalonians 4:2).

 

[Bible2]

Harry3142 posted in message #3:

But there was no one except Jesus Christ himself who
was able to acheive the requirement which God demands
of all who would enter his presence on their own
merit. So The Author of Justice , God the Father,
gave us the opportunity to attain salvation through
his efforts rather than our own: [Romans 3:19-26]

We can only attain salvation through the efforts of
Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:3-4) insofar as no one
can be saved by their efforts apart from Him (John
14:6, 3:36, Acts 4:12).

It is only by faith in Jesus that we can ever be
declared righteous before God (Romans 3:22,
Philippians 3:9, Galatians 2:16). But faith without
works of faith is dead and cannot save us (James
2:14-26, Titus 1:16). So we must have works of faith
(1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6) if we are to be
saved (James 2:24).

Regarding Romans 3:19-26, it (like Galatians 2:16,
5:18, Philippians 3:9, and many other passages)
isn't referring to works of faith of the New
Covenant law of Christ (Galatians 6:2; 1 Corinthians
9:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:2, John 14:21-24), but to
works of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which can never
save us.

Harry3142 posted in message #3:

[Re: Romans 3:19-26]

That is the means of our salvation, and it is a
salvation which is bestowed on us by God himself if
we only accept it. Our salvation has already been
earned for us in its entirety; God the Father and
Jesus Christ his Son did all the work necessary for
our salvation, and now offer this salvation to us
freely.

We must also work out our own salvation with fear and
trembling (Philippians 2:12; 1 Peter 1:17), for only
if we continue to do good works of faith will we
receive eternal life and escape God's wrath (Romans
2:6-8); only if we continue to obey God will we be
saved (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21).

Harry3142 posted in message #3:

As for the works which some say we must perform in
order to remain saved, the truth of the matter is
that we have been told to let God, in the person of
the Holy Spirit, work through us rather than our
doing the work ourselves: [Galatians 5:16-26].

Galatians 5:16-26 doesn't say or mean that we are
not to do any work ourselves, for we must work
together with God in us (Colossians 1:29;
1 Corinthians 3:9, 9:24-27, Philippians 3:12-14).

 

[Bible2]

Strong in Him posted in message #4:

God wants everyone to be saved - 2 Peter 3:10 [sic]
says that God doesn't want anyone to perish but
everyone to come to repentance.

God doesn't want everyone to be saved, for He hates
some people and has determined them to be the vessels
of His wrath (Romans 9:13-22). He has chosen to save
only a relatively few people (Matthew 22:14, 7:14).

2 Peter 3:9 is referring only to "us-ward", that is,
only to those whom God has chosen to save, to make
the vessels of His mercy (Romans 9:23-24).

Strong in Him posted in message #4:

But all that's required is to say to him "help me,
Lord", or "Lord, I believe help me in my unbelief",
or "Jesus, save me"; and the Lord Jesus has promised
that he will never turn away anyone who comes to him.
You don't need perfect faith to come to him, you just
need to come.

No one can come to the Lord Jesus unless God the
Father has first chosen them to come to Jesus (John
6:44,65, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 2:8).

Strong in Him posted in message #4:

Is a God who is love capable of creating a person and
condeming that person to hell - eternal death -
before (s)he has even begun their physical life?

That's exactly what Romans 9:11-22 teaches, for while
God is love (1 John 4:8), He is not only love, but is
also a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) who hates some
people before they're even born (Romans 9:11-13).

Strong in Him posted in message #4:

That is bad news about God. I don' think such a
teaching would attract anyone, if it were true, but
I don't believe it is.

That's the whole point of this thread: the bad news
about God and His Gospel is often not preached. And
this is because it "won't attract anyone"; the
Gospel is abridged so that it contains only the good
news, so that preachers can fill their pews and
coffers in Mega-Church "Seeker friendly" easiness,
never teaching the difficult, and demanding, parts of
the Gospel, some of which are crucial to true
salvation. People forget that the way of salvation
is not supposed to be easy and attractive, so that
everyone will want to follow it (Matthew 7:13, Luke
6:26); the way of true salvation is so hard (Luke
9:23-24, 14:26-33, John 12:25) that only a relatively
few people will follow it (Matthew 7:14-27).

 

[Bible2]

Uphill Battle posted in message #5:

God states clearly he desires the salvation of all
men... and he KNOWS that it won't be. He knows who
will and who won't. That doesn't mean he forced them
to be unrepentant sinners!

In 1 Timothy 2:4, the Greek word translated as "all"
can be translated as "all manner of" (Acts 10:12);
God desires that all manner of men be saved
(Revelation 5:9b), not that all men be saved (Matthew
22:14, Romans 9:11-22).

God not only never forces anyone to commit sin; He
never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James
1:13-15). But once people have chosen to commit sin
on their own, He can harden them so that they will
never repent and receive His mercy, but only His
wrath (Romans 9:18-22). He can of old ordain some
people to condemnation (Jude 1:4). He can actively
make sure that some people will be damned
(2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).

 

[Strong in Him]

God doesn't want everyone to be saved, for He hates
some people and has determined them to be the vessels
of His wrath (Romans 9:13-22).

He most certainly does. Jesus said that everyone who comes to him and believes in him will not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16). He will never turn away anyone who comes to him (John 6:37). He said that he gave his flesh for the life of the world (John 6:51), and that anyone who eats his flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life (John 6:54). Over and over again in Scripture we are told that Jesus is the way to God, and whoever believes in him and what he has done for us, has eternal life. There is a choice - those who believe are saved, those who don't, aren't, for their is no other way to get to heaven (John 14:6) and no other name by which peopole can be saved (Acts 4:12).

How can God hate? God is love, not "God shows love" God IS love. God is also light, there is no darkness in him at all.

He has not made anyone vessles of his wrath. God's wrath is against sin - always has been - and that was taken care of by Jesus on the cross. Jesus was MADE sin for us, and on the cross said "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matthew 27:46) God could not look upon sin, and Jesus, in that moment, bore our sins - took them all upon himself. God punished Jesus for our sin.

2 Peter 3:9 is referring only to "us-ward", that is,
only to those whom God has chosen to save, to make
the vessels of His mercy (Romans 9:23-24).

So you've obviously been taught.

No one can come to the Lord Jesus unless God the
Father has first chosen them to come to Jesus (John
6:44,65, Acts 13:48b, Ephesians 2:8).

Anyone can come to Jesus.

That's exactly what Romans 9:11-22 teaches, for while
God is love (1 John 4:8), He is not only love, but is
also a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) who hates some
people before they're even born (Romans 9:11-13).

I don't believe for one minute that God hates some people before they are born. Why? Because on one occasion Jesus said "if you then, bad as you are, know how to give good gfts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?" (Luke 11:13).
My lovely, yet imperfect, human father would never have said to my mum, "I got you pregnant but I'm going to hate this child. It cannot have my name, it will never inherit anything from me. I may feed it and let it live in my house, but I will let it, and everyone else around me know that I disown it. I want other children, and will probably choose to love them, but not this one."
If my dad would not have behaved in that way, why would God, my loving and perfect heavenly Father?

Also, what would be the point of that child living? In the above, fictional, scenario, such a child might have turned around to my dad after it was born and said "if I'm such a burden and you hate me so much, why did you give me life? Why allow mum to bring me into the world just to make me the focus of so much hatred? What kind of a dad are you?"
Are you saying that the God who formed us in the womb and knew all about us before we were born (Psalm 139), could give us life and never let us know anything about our creator, except maybe how much he hated us?

That's the whole point of this thread: the bad news about God and His Gospel is often not preached.

That's because we don't believe it. I'm not going to stand up and say "God hates some of you, and you have been selected never to believe in him. He made you so that you will go to hell, you'll never have a chance. But because I don't know which of you that applies to, here is the Good News that God loved the world so much that he gave Jesus to die for our sin. Repent anyway, just in case."
That is nonsensical, unbiblical, and also against Methodist doctrine and would get me kicked out of the church.

And
this is because it "won't attract anyone"; the
Gospel is abridged so that it contains only the good
news, so that preachers can fill their pews and
coffers in Mega-Church "Seeker friendly" easiness,
never teaching the difficult, and demanding, parts of
the Gospel, some of which are crucial to true
salvation.

Ok, so now you are judging that Christian preachers, born again children of God, change the Gospel to make it consumer friendly and a means of earning money and reputation. That is a scandalous thing to say, and I hope you have proof.

People forget that the way of salvation
is not supposed to be easy and attractive, so that
everyone will want to follow it (Matthew 7:13, Luke
6:26); the way of true salvation is so hard (Luke
9:23-24, 14:26-33, John 12:25) that only a relatively
few people will follow it (Matthew 7:14-27).

People are saved through faith in Jesus; him alone, no one else. You can repent and accept Jesus on your death bed and will still be saved.
Not everyone wats to believe in Jesus; some believe they will have to give up their friends and habits if they become a Christian, carry a large Bible around all the time, never smile and try to do their best for a stern God who wants to deny them fun. Some people are saved; they do not persevere in the faith, do not abide in Jesus (John 15:4), do not show by their fruits that God has really made them clean and a new creation. Is such a person really saved - who knows? It could well be that they are, but they will have to give an account of how they have spent their lives, like everyone else will, and may well not receive any rewards in heaven. Paul says in 1 Corinthians that everything we do will be tested by fire, if it survives, we will be rewarded; if not, we will lose it. We will escape the fire, but only just - as one escaping through the flames. (1 Cor 3:10-15).

We don't work to be saved, we work becase we love God, want to serve him, have been given gifts to serve him. If we love God, we have to put him first, have no idols before him. So any past-time, tv programme, habit, friendship that comes between us and God and takes our attention and love away from him, should be denied or got rid of - not because such things will stop us from being saved, but because we are called to be holy and are being made into Jesus' image and likeness.

Salvation is God's work, and he has marked those he has saved with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of what is to come. We died to sin, are new creations and our life is hidden in Christ. We still struggle with sin, bad habbits etc. This does not mean we are not, and never were, saved.

 

[Gary51]

If a person refuses to believe, or accept, the Good News, continues to do so and dies having deliberately rejected God's amazing love and gift of Grace, THEN they will come to see that their rejection of God was bad news.

Like the OP said, the church should also teach the bad news... Giving details of what the bad news means... like they did in the middle-ages.

Also, can you give me a name of a single person in scripture that knowingly and deliberately rejected God and received the bad news?

Do you know anyone that knowingly and deliberately has rejected God?

Who in their right mind would say, "I truly believe in God, but I don't want His love. I reject Him. So, I choose the torments of everlasting torture in hell"

Such a person would have to be insane.... Does God reject the insane?

 

[Harry3142]

The difference between 'salvation by works' and 'salvation by grace' is defined in this passage of Scripture:

Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or, 'Who will descend into the deep?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile - the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:5-13,NIV)

St. Paul also noticed a real problem with himself when he tried to live a life in accordance with God's laws:

"So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sinat work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Romans 7:21-25,NIV)

Two thousand years after this was written, an Austrian psychologist gave this problem a name - paradoxical intention. He found it so ingrained into the psyche of homo sapiens to gravitate toward what we are trying to escape from that he was able to use it as part of his treatment. St. Paul had recognized that he had a problem; he just did not have a name for it.

As for ritualism, legalism, traditionalism, pietism, or any other -ism helping to save us, it will not happen. We can go through all the dictates, statutes, ecclesiastical edicts, and heirarchical pronouncements that exist today and it will do us no good whatsoever. Our salvation depends solely on our personal relationship with Jesus Christ; apart from him to say that we have salvation is tantamount to saying that a physical body can live without its internal organs.

There are those who tell us that we must obey them in order to merit salvation. I have had two ministers of two different denominations (both members of of those called the radical sects) tell me that I must accept them as my spiritual mentor in order to be saved. In both cases it was obvious that what they were after was not my spiritual illumination but rather my abject obeissance to them. In each case, and this is extremely important, they told me that I was to stop reading the Holy Bible ("It might confuse you") and let them tell me what it really said.

 

[Strong in Him]

Like the OP said, the church should also teach the bad news... Giving details of what the bad news means... like they did in the middle-ages.

I think it does, in places, although it's probably true that hell is preached less often than it used to be. I've never preached on it, I'd rather talk about Jesus. But I don't think this is what the OP is saying. He says that God hates some people and decided that they should not be saved before they were even born. That is his bad news, which I do not believe.

Do you know anyone that knowingly and deliberately has rejected God?

No, but what's that got to do with it?

Who in their right mind would say, "I truly believe in God, but I don't want His love. I reject Him. So, I choose the torments of everlasting torture in hell"

There are people who have been Christians, and experienced something of God's love. They have later turned away, and not all of them turn back again. I have no personal experience of this, but I have heard of people who say they don't wish to be Christians any more. And I'm not talking about a little doubt, or dry period following some personal crisis, I mean people who decide they don't want any more to do with God. It happened in Jesus' day; many disciples turned away from Jesus saying his teaching was too hard to follow. (John 6:66!)
I have no idea if they were saved, turned back or were given another chance. They folloed Jesus, maybe even saw his miracles, but chose to reject him.

I also think many people are of the opinion that because God is love and loves everybody, he will never send anyone to hell; somehow it will be "alright in the end." I doubt they would ever say "I knowingly and freely choose the fires of hell", a) because they don't believe that they exist and b) because they think God would never send them there.

Such a person would have to be insane.... Does God reject the insane?

No. But God honours the choices made by us. If a person is consistently presented with the Good News and the claims of Jesus, and chooses to reject it and him, then God will honour that choice after death. If they have died in their sins, how can they then find the forgiveness that the Saviour offers? If they have repeatedly rejected God, and indicated while on earth that they want neither his presence, his love or his help, God will honour that choice. I think heaven would be hell for someone who has chosen to have nothing to do with God; if they want to be seperated frm him, they will be given their wish.

When they meet God after death, realise that he is real and that the Gospel was true, then they wil get bad news; it's too late. This is very different from the bad news that the OP seems to describe - a God who hates them and has destined them for hell before their birth.

 

[squint]

Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Deuteronomy 8:3
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Deut 18:18 A Prophet I will raise to them from within brothers of them as you.
And I give word of Me in mouth of Him and He speaks to them all which I shall instruct Him.
19 And he becomes the man who not he is listening to words of Me which He shall speak in name of Me, I shall require from with him.

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him speaking, behold! a cloud, luminous, upon-shadows them. And behold!, a voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!".

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the assembly in Thyatira, write! Now this is saying the Son of the GOD/YHWH, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass.

 

[Carey]

I think what needs to be "preached " is the Good News to attract the largest number unbelievers.

What needs to be "taught" is the Bad news to new believers and fewer in nymber stubbborn unbelievers who may be willing to listen to the Bad news in a small group or 1 on 1 situation.

But yes the bad as well will bring many to the knowledge of the wonderful word of God that brings happiness in this life and an eternal next life.

That is why we need both the Joel Osteens and the Hal Lindseys on the opposite ned of the spectrum

 

[Kristos]

The bad news is, even a virgin, if foolish will be shut out of the wedding feast!

 

[squint]

Deut 18:18 A Prophet I will raise to them from within brothers of them as you.
And I give word of Me in mouth of Him and He speaks to them all which I shall instruct Him.
19 And he becomes the man who not he is listening to words of Me which He shall speak in name of Me, I shall require from with him.

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him speaking, behold! a cloud, luminous, upon-shadows them. And behold!, a voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!".

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the assembly inThyatira, write! Now this is saying the Son of the GOD/YHWH, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass.

It's very unusual how a person can read verses like those that state that MEN WILL LIVE BY EVERY WORD of God and entirely MISS the point...eh?

 

[Bible2]

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
God doesn't want everyone to be saved, for He hates
some people and has determined them to be the vessels
of His wrath (Romans 9:13-22)."

He most certainly does.

God most certainly doesn't want everyone to be saved
(Romans 9:13-22).

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

Jesus said that everyone who comes to him and believes
in him will not perish but have eternal life (John
3:16). He will never turn away anyone who comes to him
(John 6:37).

Jesus also said that no one can come to Him unless
God the Father draws them to Him (John 6:44,65). Only
those ordained by God to believe in Jesus will believe
in Him (Acts 13:48b). A saving faith in Jesus is a
gift from God (Ephesians 2:8) that He doesn't give to
everyone, but to only a relatively few people (Matthew
22:14, 7:14).

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

He said that he gave his flesh for the life of the
world (John 6:51), and that anyone who eats his
flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life (John
6:54).

That's right. Communion is necessary for salvation
(John 6:53). That's why Jesus commands us to take
Communion (Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29).
If we don't obey Jesus' commands, then we don't love
Him (John 14:21-24).

John 6:51 means that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient
to save the whole world (1 John 2:2), not that it
was ever intended by God to do so, for God never
intended to save those in the world who are not
His children, but are the children of the devil (John
8:42-47; 1 John 3:8-10, Matthew 13:38-42).

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

How can God hate? God is love, not "God shows love"
God IS love. God is also light, there is no darkness
in him at all.

The Bible says that God hates (Romans 9:13). If we
can't accept that then we can't accept the Bible,
but want to replace it with our own man-made
conception of God.

While God is love (1 John 4:8), He is not only love,
but is also a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) who can
destroy people (Deuteronomy 9:3), even with
everlasting destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9).

God's hate isn't darkness; it isn't evil in any way,
but is His Holy hatred of evil (Psalms 11:5, Hosea
9:15, Hebrews 1:9), just as our hatred of evil isn't
evil (Psalms 97:10).

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

He has not made anyone vessles of his wrath.

The Bible says that God has made some people vessels
of His wrath (Romans 9:18-22). If we can't accept that
then we can't accept sound doctrine, but want to
replace it with man-made teachings which tickle our
ears (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

The purpose of the vessels of wrath living is to serve
as means by which God might make His power and wrath
known (Romans 9:22), just as the purpose of the
vessels of mercy living is to serve as means by which
God might make His glory and mercy known (Romans
9:23), as well as His wisdom (Ephesians 3:10). The
purpose of Creation -- both the good and the bad --
is to give God pleasure (Revelation 4:11, Proverbs
16:4).

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

God's wrath is against sin - always has been - and
that was taken care of by Jesus on the cross.

Our sin is only taken care of if we have faith in
Jesus and His shed blood for our sins (Romans
3:25-26), and not everyone has faith in Jesus (John
3:18-20), so not everyone will escape God's wrath
(John 3:36b), which is eternal torment in fire and
brimstone with the devil (Revelation 14:10-11,
20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

"Originally Posted by Bible2
And this is because it 'won't attract anyone'; the
Gospel is abridged so that it contains only the good
news, so that preachers can fill their pews and
coffers in Mega-Church 'Seeker friendly' easiness,
never teaching the difficult, and demanding, parts of
the Gospel, some of which are crucial to true
salvation."

Ok, so now you are judging that Christian preachers,
born again children of God, change the Gospel to make
it consumer friendly and a means of earning money and
reputation. That is a scandalous thing to say, and I
hope you have proof.

What some Christian preachers are doing today is
nothing new. Whether they're truly born-again or not,
there have always been preachers who think that the
measure of their success is their reputation in the
world (Luke 6:26, 16:15), and the number of their
followers instead of the quality of their teachings
(Acts 20:30), which seem to always end up focusing on
money, as they fleece their flocks (Ezekiel 34:10) for
all that they can get (2 Peter 2:3; 1 Timothy 6:5-10).
And they present God's grace as so free and easy
(Jude 1:4, contrast Hebrews 10:26-29) that their
flocks feel no need whatsoever to turn away from
continuing in their sinful lifestyles (Jeremiah
23:17,22), whether that involves covetousness or
fornication, or both (2 Peter 2:14-22, Ephesians
5:3-7, Colossians 3:5-6).

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

We don't work to be saved, we work becase we love
God ...

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive; they're
not either/or but both/and. We do work to be saved
(2 Peter 1:10-11), just as we work because we love
God (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24).

Strong in Him posted in message #11:

Salvation is God's work ...

Salvation is both God's work and our work
(Philippians 2:12-13, James 2:24, Colossians 1:29,
Matthew 7:21).