The Atheist and Islam.

[mo.mentum]

Hi.


I was thinking. If someone claims to be an atheist, then they must have a certain conception of a god in order to reject it. You can't reject something if you don't have an idea of what it might be or might represent.


So my argument is that, 99.5% of Atheists have a warped concept of god and that is the reason why they reject it. Is the God you perceive seem to be some old bearded guy up there? A god that begets or is begotten? A god that makes mistakes and corrects himself? A god which needs to sacrifice in order to save? A god which needs to incarnate himself? A god which is exclusive to one ethnic group or race? A god which vengefully kills off any who disobeys him?


Those who construe god in this fashion will undoubtedly reject Him. Whereas, an Islamic concept of God might indeed turn the tide and show many atheists that religion is in fact based on science, reason and knowledge. And not on superstition, unverified history and so on...


SO MY QUESTION TO THE ATHEISTS OUT THERE IS:
If you don't believe in God, what is the idea of God that you have in your heads; which you reject?


My goal in this thread is to show you that our concept of God is perhaps a different view of what you may be used to, one that actually fits all the science. One that is more in tune with a modern society.

 

[ForeRunner]

While you might be right in regard to some Athiests, I doubt it applies to very many. The thing about Atheists is the only thing that characterizes them is the lack of belief in a god or gods. You can't classify our beliefs like you can other major world views.

I have read every major religious text I could find (and several translations of each). I think I have a pretty clear view of what God is/could be. I still don't believe there is one, however. I also have a concept of fairys, I don't think they exist either.

 

[revolutio]

If you don't believe in God, what is the idea of God that you have in your heads; which you reject?

Rejecting is an action. Atheism is the lack of taking any action.

 

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

SO MY QUESTION TO THE ATHEISTS OUT THERE IS:
If you don't believe in God, what is the idea of God that you have in your heads; which you reject?

Depends on which god you are referring to. Even when talking about the same god you will get a ton of different variations from different people. It's impossible to know about and then dismiss every single god and their many incarnations.

For me it's more of a general disbelief in magical creatures, which I classify gods as.

 

[Northern Christian]

I must recommend that this thread be closed, as it is against the rules to prostylize any non-Christian religion here.

 

[revolutio]

I must recommend that this thread be closed, as it is against the rules to prostylize any non-Christian religion here.

I haven't the foggiest what prostylize means.

This may be in the wrong forum (More appropriate for
Non-Christian Spirituality & Religion), but I don't see how it is breaking the rules.

 

[Data]

I must recommend that this thread be closed, as it is against the rules to prostylize any non-Christian religion here.

Prostylize?

I think you mean proselytize.

 

[mo.mentum]

Depends on which god you are referring to. Even when talking about the same god you will get a ton of different variations from different people. It's impossible to know about and then dismiss every single god and their many incarnations.

For me it's more of a general disbelief in magical creatures, which I classify gods as.

Well thats the point im getting at! People thinkg of god as some sort of deity with magical powers which manifests itself through different poeple or things.

That is not my concept of God.

 

[mo.mentum]

I must recommend that this thread be closed, as it is against the rules to prostylize any non-Christian religion here.

If you feel threatened, go elsewhere. This topic fits well into the Science/Creation debate.

My view of God, based on the Islamic conception of Him, has no problem with the scientific evidence of modern times. Nor does limit my learning.

In fact, the most recent ideas about the Hologramic Universe fit extremely well with our concept of Allah, The God.

 

[Data]

Well thats the point im getting at! People thinkg of god as some sort of deity with magical powers which manifests itself through different poeple or things.

That sounds pretty general to me. If that isn't what your concept of God is, what is it?

 

[Northern Christian]

I'm not a moderator, but I do find this interesting...

Rule No. 5 - No Promotion of Other Religions

5) You will not post any messages, links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (according to Rule 6). This would include no promotion of "Christian" cults or other doctrines considered heretical (according to Rule 6). Debate of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.

 

[Chi_Cygni]

But you are whining NC.

Who cares?

 

[revolutio]

I'm not a moderator, but I do find this interesting...

Rule No. 5 - No Promotion of Other Religions

5) You will not post any messages, links, images or photos that promote a religion or belief other than mainstream Christianity (according to Rule 6). This would include no promotion of "Christian" cults or other doctrines considered heretical (according to Rule 6). Debate of these doctrines are fine, as long as the beliefs are not actively promoted. This is a Christian Forums as the name suggest. If you cannot abide with this, please do not use our site.

Promote a religion? Heck this is trying to dissprove one. I think Mo.mentum should get browney points for that.

 

[Data]

Yea, who cares?

If it was so objectionable he would have been banned by now. You will notice he has a long history, much longer than yours, and he posts about islam.

Hell, the OP isn't even about islam, it's about athiests and the concept of god.

 

[mo.mentum]

That sounds pretty general to me. If that isn't what your concept of God is, what is it?

First off: God is Unique.

This alone has many consequences. He cannot be compared to anything in creation, nor can He be conceived. He has no shape, size, form or dimension. He is a not a he nor a she nor an it. We cannot know His motives, eventhough His motives never change.


Second: God is Infinite.

As opposed to everything in Creation which is finite. No matter how big of a number X you think of, inifnity is always bigger. Whatever X you imagine, X is always contained within infinity. X isn't part of infinity, since taking out or adding X doesn't affect infinity.

Basically, God is infinitally rich, wise, just, merciful, powerful, mighty, beneficient, accurate, complete, etc etc etc

He's not some deity out there, far off somewhere outside of the Universe. Nor is He the Universe itself. No matter how big the Universe is, it is always a dot compared to something that is infinite. So there may be many many many Universes in God's consciousness. Since He is infinite in every sense and possible way of Being, this is very easy for Him.


Third: God is Living.

He speaks to mankind and teaches us, through His messengers and prophets. He isn't just remotely transcendant, but quite active and intrinsic to human's everyday lives.


Fourth: Only knowledge leads to God.

No matter what religion you ascribe to, knowledge alone is your true path. From our civilization's perspective (Islam), science was born out of the need to know God. Afterall, it was Muslim scientists of the 9th-12th century C.E. that thought of the scientific method as a way to verify their observations. (check your history books)

Science isn't here to disprove religion, but to increase our faith in Allah. He even commands us to "walk the Earth and see how Your Lord originated creation". Science, and everything else on this planet and in our minds, has been put at our disposal so that we may know Him and to establish a just and fair society based on the creed of "Nothing exists that is worthy of worship and servitude. Only God exists."


FINALLY, God is not a mystery.

Although we cannot conveive of God directly, because it's beyond our means. We can still recognize His attributes within creation. These are the 99 "Attributes" of God according to the Qur'an, they are all superlatives.


Ar-Rahman 1. The All-Compassionate
Ar-Rahim 2. The All-Merciful
Al-Malik 3. The Absolute Ruler
Al-Quddus 4. The Pure One
As-Salam 5. The Source of Peace
Al-Mu'min 6. The Inspirer of Faith
Al-Muhaymin 7. The Guardian
Al-'Aziz 8. The Victorious
Al-Jabbar 9. The Compeller
Al-Mutakabbir 10. The Greatest
Al-Khaliq 11. The Creator
Al-Bari' 12. The Maker of Order
Al-Musawwir 13. The Shaper of Beauty
Al-Ghaffar 14. The Forgiving
Al-Qahhar 15. The Subduer
Al-Wahhab 16. The Giver of All
Ar-Razzaq 17. The Sustainer
Al-Fattah 18. The Opener
Al-'Alim 19. The Knower of All
Al-Qabid 20. The Constrictor
Al-Basit 21. The Reliever
Al-Khafid 22. The Abaser
Ar-Rafi' 23. The Exalter
Al-Mu'izz 24. The Bestower of Honors
Al-Mudhill 25. The Humiliator
As-Sami 26. The Hearer of All
Al-Basir 27. The Seer of All
Al-Hakam 28. The Judge
Al-'Adl 29. The Just
Al-Latif 30. The Subtle One
Al-Khabir 31. The All-Aware
Al-Halim 32. The Forebearing
Al-'Azim 33. The Magnificent
Al-Ghafur 34. The Forgiver and Hider of Faults
Ash-Shakur 35. The Rewarder of Thankfulness
Al-'Ali 36. The Highest
Al-Kabir 37. The Greatest
Al-Hafiz 38. The Preserver
Al-Muqit 39. The Nourisher
Al-Hasib 40. The Accounter
Al-Jalil 41. The Mighty
Al-Karim 42. The Generous
Ar-Raqib 43. The Watchful One
Al-Mujib 44. The Responder to Prayer
Al-Wasi' 45. The All-Comprehending
Al-Hakim 46. The Perfectly Wise
Al-Wadud 47. The Loving One
Al-Majíd 48. The Majestic One
Al-Ba'ith 49. The Resurrector
Ash-Shahid 50. The Witness
Al-h Haqq 51. The Truth
Al-Wakil 52. The Trustee
Al-Qawi 53. The Possessor of All Strength
Al-Matin 54. The Forceful One
Al-Wáli 55. The Governor
Al-Hamid 56. The Praised One
Al-Muhsi 57. The Appraiser
Al-Mubdi 58. The Originator
Al-Mu'id 59. The Restorer
Al-Muhyi 60. The Giver of Life
Al-Mumit 61. The Taker of Life
Al-Hayy 62. The Ever Living One
Al-Qayyum 63. The Self-Existing One
Al-Wajid 64. The Finder
Al-Májid 65. The Glorious
Al-Wahid 66. The Only One
Al-Ahad 67. The One
As-Samad 68. The Satisfier of All Needs
Al-Qadir 69. The All Powerful
Al-Muqtadir 70. The Creator of All Power
Al-Muqaddim 71. The Expediter
Al-Mu'akhkhir 72. The Delayer
Al-Awwal 73. The First
Al-Akhir 74. The Last
Az-Zahir 75. The Manifest One
Al-Batin 76. The Hidden One
Al-Walí 77. The Protecting Friend
Al-Muta'ali 78. The Supreme One
Al-Barr 79. The Doer of Good
At-Tawwib 80. The Guide to Repentance
Al-Muntaqim 81. The Avenger
Al-Afu 82. The Forgiver
Ar-Ra'uf 83. The Clement
Malik al-Mulk 84. The Owner of All
Dhul-Jalali Wal-Ikram 85. The Lord of Majesty and Bounty
Al-Muqsit 86. The Equitable One
Al-Jami 87. The Gatherer
Al-Ghani 88. The Rich One
Al-Mughni 89. The Enricher
Al-Mani' 90. The Preventer of Harm
Ad-Darr 91. The Creator of The Harmful
An-Nafi 92. The Creator of Good
An-Nur 93. The Light
Al-Hadi 94. The Guide
Al-Badi 95. The Originator
Al-Baqi 96. The Everlasting One
Al-Warith 97. The Inheritor of All
Ar-Rashid 98. The Righteous Teacher
As-Sabur 99.The Patient One

 

[Chi_Cygni]

By the way,

How do we know God is infinite?

I mean how do we know that he is omnipotent and not just really powerful?

 

[Mr_Coffee]

The common concept of a bearded, shapeless entity who manages the Earth's human populace via "fate" and "sacrafice" is utterly ridiculous to me. I personally don't understand why people find comfort in a god which, inductively, is a prick IMHO. A friend of mine has had (and has defeated) cancer twice, has type 2 diabetes, has had over a dozen surgeries and hasn't spent a birthday or Christmas out of the hospital since she was 10 years old. She was raped and beaten severely in a university bathroom last Saturday, her arm was broken, neck was bruised and swollen from being choked, and she didn't stop "bleeding" for two days. The fact that things like this happen to people provide me the proof that there is not god. Otherwise, these things wouldn't happen. And if it was found that he does indeed exist, I wouldn't praise or acknowledge this god that allows things like this to occur to his own beloved, innocent creations.

I see hardly any variation between mammals and human beings. There is such little genetic variability, it's rather interesting really. I don't see why some believe this planet was made just for human life and not for its other inhabitants.

I see no significance in the existence of the human race other than the enjoyability one's individual life. As a whole, we pride ourselves in scientific achievements and construction projects, but I believe the only good thing about human life is the feeling a human being feels when he/she does a good deed. When someone lives a good life. And I don't need a fear in god to do that or a guarentee of afterlife.

The Earth is nothing but a miniscule speck in the sea of space. There isn't a word in the English language that can quite capture how miniscule it is.

So, to answer your question: I don't believe in god simply because I don't think the entire universe was created just so human beings could do what we have done. We have a very bloody past, present and future. I don't see why we deserve a universe.

 

[mo.mentum]

guys guys guys...Take it easy on Norther Christian.

Some people feel their knowledge of their own faith isn't deep enough to be able to have a meaningful discussion about it with someone of another faith. This is totally understandable and we shoulnd't lambast him for wanting to get this post closed off.

Norther Christian, my goal is not to prove or disprove a religion. My goal is to show atheists that perhaps, they're going about it the wrong way. Now you can either help a brother Theist, or join their ranks and sow division

God be with you.

 

[mo.mentum]

The fact that things like this happen to people provide me the proof that there is not god. Otherwise, these things wouldn't happen. And if he found out that he does exist, I wouldn't praise or acknowledge a god that allows things like this to occur.

Then you have totally missed the point of this life.

If this life were perfect and nothing bad ever happened, wouldn't it be HEAVEN? PARADISE? ETERNAL BLISS? What's the point of freedom of choice if there are no situations for us to excercise it??

What is the point of giving an ethical and moral dimension to the world if God didn't give us the freedom to chose how we will act towards one another? On the contrary, the fact that bad things happen PROVES that God is out htere and has endowed us with reason, knowledge, intellect and morality in order to live ourlives. Don't blame Him for mankind's ruthlessness. Blame mankind's haughty arrogance and pride that has seperated him from His Lord.

I see hardly any variation between mammals and human beings. There is such little genetic variability, it's rather interesting really. I don't see why some believe this planet was made just for human life and not for its other inhabitants.

Again a misconception. This planet wasn't made for us to dominate. Maybe it says so in some Scriptures, but most Scripture says that mankind is the most honored of God's creature because God endowed him with faculties other creatures do not have and thus are not fit to manage the Earth. We are His vicegerants on Earth, not the His brutal lackies who should exploit it! We are the gardners. The view that this planet is ours to control is a very Eurocentric view, manifested by centuries of colonial and imperialist ideologies.

So, to answer your question: I don't believe in god simply because I don't think the entire universe was created just so human beings could do what we have done. We have a very bloody past, present and future. I don't see why we deserve a universe.

Again. Look at history. Not all socieites have had the same path of social evolution. some fared well because religion was a personal relationship with God without intercessor or intermediary. Others fared worse because people made religion into a monolithic institution with clergy and what not.

Humans have always needed to believe in something greater than ourselves. When we do setup ourselves as masters and lords over each other, then problems arise.

I say we need to acknowledge the fact that we're all humans with NO POWER whatsoever. We are all slaves and servants, with ONE UNIQUE MASTER, God. The best ones amongst us are those who do good deeds in His sake, in order to bring about the Divine Pattern.

 

[mo.mentum]

By the way,

How do we know God is infinite?

I mean how do we know that he is omnipotent and not just really powerful?

Easy

We know that every effect needs a cause.

We know that everything that starts at point A, will end at some point B. Everything has boundaries.

Since every event has a time t=0 for a start, and time t=X for an end. This event had a cause which itself had its own time t'=0 and time t'=Y. So we know that time has boundaries.

A common mistake is to think that time has always been around and is this constant flow. We know today through quantum mechanics and other fields of advanced physics that this is simply not true. Or at least, its not that simple!

Either way. Time has a beginning since it is part of the space-time continuum. If there's a point where time did not exist, it must be some "moment" which is eternal. It never starts nor ends. So our concept of time is contained within this eternal/infinite moment of "pre-time".

By consequence, God doens't operate within time, He created time! So if He created time, He must exist in an eternal/infinite moment which never changes. God never changes since He is perfect. So, God is infinite and manifests this infinity and eternal wisdom in the countless forms of His creation.

Can you begin to count every single thing which exists? Down to every molecule, atom, proton, fermeon or gluon?

Despite this great variety of created "things", they can all interact intelligibly with one another...A cell in your body will decay one day to become worm food which will then itself die to become compost, which will then be abosrbed by plants to grow bigger and give us food..etc etc etc...

God brings the living things out of the dead ones, and the dead ones out of the living ones. Will you not then heed?