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The Assumption of the Blessed Mother

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by VOW, Apr 24, 2002.

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  1. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Aggie:

    Save yourself some grief, and DON'T take up that topic with either Andrew or Hobart Schmedly here on the boards.

    We are instructed to pray for one another.


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  2. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    As always, the Catholic Church does not adhere to the Protestant concept of Sola scriptura, so whether a particular doctrine can be found outlined in Scripture or not is completely irrelevant.

    However, you might try these verses:
    Rom 15:30, Col 4:3, 1 Thes 5:25, 2 Thes 1:11, 3:1, Eph 6:18-19, and Rev 5:8.
     
  3. psycmajor

    psycmajor self-Banned

    +9
    {opens the Pandora's Box again...}

    Mary had other children:
    Matthew 13:53-58; see also Mark 6:1-3
    53 Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished these parables, that He departed from there. 54 And when He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, "Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?"

    Also, could someone explain what this "mystical body of Christ" is?

    Personally, I believe that the focus on Mary just draws attention away from Jesus.

    This is what Jesus said:
    2 Corinthians 12:9
    9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    So why not rest in Jesus alone? The focus on Mary kind of implies that what He did for us was not enough.

    Also, is there any secular historical evidence FROM THE PERIOD SHE WAS LIVING that she had this assumption?
     
  4. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Psyc:

    <sigh>

    Old, old story, Psyc. But no, Mary had no more children after Jesus. In Aramaic, there are no "extra" words to describe family relationships, and if you are related to someone, he's your "brother."

    Once again, we go to the writings of the Early Church fathers for clarification. I'm sure Wolseley has a few references for us.

    (Hey, Wols, howzabout making up a file with links to ECF for commonly asked questions about Catholicism? I'd use "Catholic Answers," but I've been accused of plagiarizing them when I've just authored my very own responses....so I'd like to go straight to the horse's mouth, so to speak)

    (and note to Psyc: the plagiarism ditty isn't in reference to you, so rest easy)



    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  5. jukesk9

    jukesk9 Dixie Whistlin' Papist

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    Personally, I believe that the focus on Mary just draws attention away from Jesus.

    What's truly wonderful about Mary is how any attention given to her is attention given to&nbsp;Christ!&nbsp; Take the Rosary for example.&nbsp; The Rosary focuses on the mysteries of the life of Christ.&nbsp; When one prays the Rosary, that person is seeing events in the life of Christ.&nbsp;

    The Marian proclamations of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption glorify Christ.&nbsp; How?&nbsp; By perserving Mary from any stain of sin so that He could come out of a pure womb.&nbsp; Everyone argues that all have sinned and God couldn't have kept Mary from sinning BUT He did.&nbsp; God kept her free from sin to glorify His son.&nbsp; If Christ was coming to visit your home, would you not clean it and try to have it looking its best?&nbsp; Also, her Assumption.&nbsp; Who grants eternal life?&nbsp; GOD!&nbsp; So by seeing Him granting Mary eternal life, we see Christ exalted for she is partaking in His fruits from His death and resurrection; something we all hope to partake in.&nbsp;

    When I ask any angel or saint for a pray, I know they are praying to God for me and that their prayers are being mediated by Christ our Lord.
     
  6. Nilhil Obstat

    Nilhil Obstat GO Fighting irish!

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    I guess I find it funny in this day and age when women need a hero or strong moral figure ~ many overlook Mary.

    She always, always leads us to her son in every way.
     
  7. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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  8. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    We've gone into this time and again, but the ancient Tradition of the Church states that Joseph was an older widower with grown children from a previous marriage, who married Mary when she was a teenager, and was more of a guardian than as a conjugal partner.

    There is no word for "step-brother" in Hebrew or in Aramaic. Ergo, the "brothers and sisters" spoken of in the Gospels can just as easily be interpreted as "step-brothers" and "step-sistes" as they can be interpreted as blood brothers and sisters.

    Protestants, relying on Scripture alone, interpret these passages as being blood kin. Catholics, relying on all other ancient Christian sources in concert with Scripture, interpret them as step-siblings or other close relation, but not as the children of Mary.

    James, the Bishop of Jerusalem, is often cited as being one of Jesus' brothers, as in Mark 6:3 and Galatians 1:19. Hegesippus (c. 180 AD) and Eusebius (c. 300 AD) also mention James as "the Lord's brother", but Eusebius (who wrote a history of the Early Church based on primary sources no longer available to us), specifically identifies him as "the son of Joseph", and Hegesippus mentions that James was past the age of eighty when he was martyred in 62 AD. This would make James more than twenty years older than Jesus, and as Luke plainly tells us, Jesus was Mary's "first-born son". Ergo, if Hegesippus is correct, then James had to be a step-brother, unless Joseph was building time machines in his carpenter's shop.

    Catholics think Mary was a perpetual virgin. Protestants think she had more children. It's not a salvational issue either way, so frankly, what difference does it make? the only reason I can think of for even bringing it up is to attempt to discredit Catholic belief, by saying "If they're wrong on this count, then they can be wrong on others."

    Fortunately, if one looks at the vast collection of early Christian writings from the first four centuries of the Church as a whole, there is more than enough evidence to indicate that Mary remained a virgin her entire life after giving birth to Jesus. The only way you can deny it is to discount some of the evidence because it isn't found in the Bible, and that's not a tactic that will stand up in court.

    "I have evidetial proof here, Your Honor, in five different exhibits. However, because the results they indicate don't agree with the way I believe the case ought to turn out, I'd like to dismiss four of them."

    I wonder what the judge would say? :D
     
  9. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    Pray for each other while we are alive, yes, but where does your belief come from that you can pray for those who have died?&nbsp; I'm not trying to argue here, I really don't know enough of what catholicism teaches on this subject to argue with it.
     
  10. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    Why isn't this supported by the scriptures if it is the truth.&nbsp; The Bible says that Joseph didn't have relations with Mary until after Christ was born.&nbsp;

    The New Testament is written in Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic - and there are words for step-brother and step-sister in Greek.&nbsp; So if these weren't the half-siblings of Christ, then why isn't that noted in the Greek text?&nbsp;
     
  11. Wolseley

    Wolseley Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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    Because the Bible was never meant to be a Handbook to Answer All Questions. It is a collection of writings addressed to people who already knew the Faith, and already had heard the answers to these things. Nowhere does the Bible (or the Church) say that "If it isn't written in Scripture, it can be be safely ignored."

    The Bible is not a book with magical properties that can answer all questions.

    Yes, the Bible states that Jospeh had no relations with Mary until after Christ was born. The Bible also states that Michal, the wife of David, had no children until the day of her death (2 Samuel 6:23). So, tell me, how many children did Michal have after she died?
    If Christian believers were not actual blood relation to one another, and if Jewish leaders were not actual blood relation to the Christians, why does the Greek text simply call them "brothers" in Acts 21:7 and Acts 22:1 instead of delineating?

    The brothers of Jesus are presented as reprimanding Him in John 7:3-4 and Mark 3:21; in Jewish culture, younger brothers never reprimanded an older brother. The only way this could happen is if they were older brothers to Jesus---and Jesus was Mary's first-born. Indeed, Jesus is often called "the son of Mary" in Scripture, but there is no mention of the sons of Mary.

    If Mary had other children to take care of her when He died, why does He turn her care over to the Apostle John in John 19:26?

    You can go either way with this, Aggie. It just boils down to what you want to believe. The only difference between you and us is that you interpret the Bible in light of itself, while we interpret the Bible and Apostolic Tradition in light of each other.

    Your mileage may vary.
     
  12. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Aggie:

    In this, the Catholic forum, I explain to Souljah about Mary's role as the Ark of the New Covenant, in the "Sinless Mary" thread.

    This is a scholarly concept by the Catholic Church, which draws parallels between Mary and the Old Testment. VERY Scriptural! If you recall from the Old Testament, the Ark of the Covenant was untouchable!

    There is so much depth to the teachings by the Catholic Church. You've got Scripture, you've got history, you've got Tradition. People spend LIFETIMES studying the teachings, and they simply cannot be dismissed with "I can't find it in Scripture."


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
  13. Raphael

    Raphael Member

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    VOW, i'm asking your permission to reprint this piece. i'd like to forward it to my family, if you don't mind. it's really beautifully written.
     
  14. aggie03

    aggie03 Veritas Vos Liberabit

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    I'm doing reading on this subject right now - I don't want to post anything until I've gotten some more reading done, maybe another day or two...but if I still have more questions or concerns, would you all rather that I post them here or in the other mentioned thread, if it's even still open? Just want to make this discussion as easy aspossible for everyone.
     
  15. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    Bump
     
  16. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    If the "assumption of Mary" is such a momentous event, why don't I see it in Scripture?
     
  17. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Joe:

    If Joseph was such a great guy, why don't we hear more about him?

    What about the childhood of Jesus? Didn't he play with his cousin John?

    How about the majority of the Apostles? Most of them just have a sentence or two said about them in the Bible.

    Peter was crucified in Rome. In the inverted position.

    How did Paul die?

    There is plenty of information to fill in the blank spots in Patristic writings. Sacred Tradition gives us untold "fill in the blanks" about the Early Church, and the people.


    Peace,
    ~VOW
     
  18. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    VOW, the assumption is an incredibly powerful idea in the RCC. It is one of the mysteries of the rosary. Why wouldn't Scripture mention it? With all the importance ascribed to Mary by the RCC, why wouldn't there be some mention of it in Scripture? Joseph is not declared to be a "mediatrix" by the RCC. It is not essential to know what happened during the childhood of Jesus, yet the RCC says the assumption is a required belief among all its members. What do you make of that?
     
  19. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    BTW Wolseley, I have another Mark Twain quote for you:

    "[The Bible] has noble poetry in it... and some good morals and a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of a thousand lies."

    :confused:
     
  20. VOW

    VOW Moderator

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    To Joe:

    The status of Mary is something that has been studied by Catholic scholars over the centuries. From Scripture itself, they have shown her to be the Ark of the New Covenant, and the New Eve.

    I hold that the Catholic Church is under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and whatever She teaches, She will not lead her children astray. I've read some of the material comparing Mary to the Ark of the Covenant, and the foreshadowing of her in the Old Testament is nothing short of awe-inspiring.

    As to what I "make of it," I believe the above Story was given to me by God, to show how the love of Jesus for His Mother would come to give her comfort at her death, and that she would indeed become "the Mother of all Mankind."


    Peace be with you,
    ~VOW
     
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