The appearances of Jesus after his death

[JohnClay]

Currently I think that Jesus died on a cross and appeared to people in visions after his death or it was a mistaken identity. It could involve rumours and legends that got elaborated on. Note this is a very complicated topic due to the numerous appearances (to women, the disciples, Paul, etc) I probably can't argue very convincingly on this topic but I thought I'd have a go.

From
The cross from a paper plane....

.....The evidence of the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ was witnessed by at least 500 eyewitnesses (1 Corinthians 15:6).

1 Corinthians 15:4-8

he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to over five hundred brothers at once, most of whom remain until now, but some have also fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all, as to the child born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also.

It seems the order of some of these appearances is different from the gospels and Acts. Note that it doesn't seem to mention the women. But in the original version of Mark it only mentions the women and no-one else.

As far as the 500 go, I don't think that is mentioned anywhere else. I've heard some Christians say that if people in Paul's time wanted to check they would be able to just do it. But Paul doesn't even mention where those 500 saw Jesus or when or who so it would be hard to double check.

When it says "he appeared to me" Paul is talking about his vision so perhaps some of the other appearances are also visions.

Well it says "as to the child born at the wrong time" so is that saying that Paul was born after Jesus lived?

There is a Wikipedia article about this topic:
Post-Resurrection appearances of Jesus - Wikipedia

BTW note that in some of the gospels the women and some of the disciples sometimes didn't recognise Jesus at all... maybe it wasn't Jesus. Also in the gospels it said that some thought that Jesus was John the Baptist or Elijah.

I guess some Christians will say that group hallucinations aren't really possible but here is what Bart Ehrman had to say:

https://ehrmanblog.org/what-really-happens-with-group-visions/

I also have a problem that besides Paul and the disciples, the people who saw Jesus were already believers. I think it would be more amazing if normal people like critics saw Jesus too.

 

[com7fy8]

Well it says "as to the child born at the wrong time" so is that saying that Paul was born after Jesus lived?

I have understood that Paul means he was born into the kingdom of God, after the other apostles who saw Jesus when He rose from the dead on the third day.

 

[Not David]

If normal people would see Jesus they would become believers too. So opponents would not believe them

 

[JohnClay]

If normal people would see Jesus they would become believers too. So opponents would not believe them

The Bible gives the examples of doubting Thomas and Paul's vision (when he was Saul). When Jesus is talking to Thomas he says:

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

I think Jesus is breaking the fourth wall where he is talking to the readers of the story.

Paul calls the 500 people "brothers" which implies that like most of the people they were already believers.

Matthew 27:52-53

and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

This is similar to Jesus's appearance though it implies that the witnesses weren't all believers originally. If someone said "well if it wasn't true then everyone would know" - I don't think anyone tried to verify it - people just assume it was true because it appeared in the Bible.

 

[Lulav]

In John 21 Jesus visits his disciples again and even has prepared food for them and has given them a full haul in their livelihood.

There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples​

This shows that seven of them witnessed this.

 

[JohnClay]

In John 21 Jesus visits his disciples again and even has prepared food for them and has given them a full haul in their livelihood.

There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples​

This shows that seven of them witnessed this.

The Bible saying something isn't very persuasive to me that it happened. e.g. Matthew 27:52-53 says that "many" holy people came were resurrected - I wonder why this isn't normally mentioned in the easter stories... another example is Noah's flood - many Christians don't believe it covered all of the mountains and therefore was global.

On the other hand, it is interesting to see what the Bible says. I was unaware about the part where Jesus prepares them food.

 

[Sabertooth]

Currently I think that Jesus died on a cross and appeared to people in visions after his death or it was a mistaken identity.

In case you didn't know, that question is a validity test for the Spirit of God.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." 1 John 4:1-3 NKJV

 

[JohnClay]

In case you didn't know, that question is a validity test for the Spirit of God.

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world." 1 John 4:1-3 NKJV

So you're saying that the belief that Jesus wasn't resurrected in the flesh is from the antichrist therefore that proves Jesus rose again in the flesh? That isn't very persuasive to me.

Also that passage implies that some people think that Jesus wasn't in the flesh and the passage is saying it is a heresy. BTW does "the flesh" talk about his initial ministry or what happened after his death? It didn't seem clear.

BTW about 1 John...
Bible Gateway passage: 1 John 5:7-8 - New International Version
This says that 1 John has changed where some say "...testify in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one" while the NIV says "...For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; [no "the Father"] and the three are in agreement..."

Also
First Epistle of John - Wikipedia
says it "was probably written in ....AD 95–110"

 

[Sabertooth]

So you're saying that the belief that Jesus wasn't resurrected in the flesh is from the antichrist therefore that proves Jesus rose again in the flesh?

It isn't proof that Jesus rose in the flesh. It is a litmus test or touchstone for the speaker.

 

[JohnClay]

It isn't proof that Jesus rose in the flesh. It is a litmus test or touchstone for the speaker.

Yeah I guess I can't call myself a Christian, even a super-liberal one then.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yeah I guess I can't call myself a Christian, even a super-liberal one then.

The doorway to faith is a heart connection to God rather than an analytical conclusion. It is about a personal response to what and why Jesus willingly suffered at the hands of the Godless.

 

[JohnClay]

The doorway to faith is a heart connection to God rather than an analytical conclusion. It is about a personal response to what and why Jesus willingly suffered at the hands of the Godless.

This is my "faith":

"We live in a retrocausal E8 block universe as sinners with a loving higher power who sometimes uses tough love. There is also a malicious deceptive force that the loving higher power allows to hurt people."

So I believe the higher power (or "intelligent force") is loving and that we are sinners though I'm not sure if Jesus died for our sins. Maybe he only died for the trouble he caused. I guess he could have died for both reasons.

I also believe that an intelligent force has worked in my life from time to time...

Earlier this year my beliefs became a lot stronger when I was in a mental ward:

JohnClay's 5th hospital visit

 

[JohnClay]

why Jesus willingly suffered at the hands of the Godless.

It sort of depends on the gospel - e.g. Mark 14 and 15
"....My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death..."
"...Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will..."
"...And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)..."

Though there is Luke 22 it does say "...Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done..." then it says "...Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”..." which is a bit more upbeat.

I got that idea from this NonStampCollector video about the book of Luke

 

[Carl Emerson]

I'm not sure if Jesus died for our sins.

Ask Him, He won't mind... in fact He wants you to know.

The truth is real simple. You can PM me if you want to, I can relate to your journey...

 

[Sanoy]

Hallucination is a conclusion that it didn't happen, not an explanation of what happened. In regards to appearance or vision the distinction of concern is whether or not it was a purely mental event. Paul's account leaves him blind with scales over his eyes, so that is not a purely mental event. So even if you use Paul's experience to identify the rest they are still taking place in the physical world. That said it would not be proper to assume each mention is of the same type as Paul's. Not only was his encounter unique as a persecuter, the word used is broad enough to include all manner of occurrences in the physical world.

John, your life seems to have Jesus revolving around it at a distance. When are you going to step forward and ask to meet Him?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Currently I think that Jesus died on a cross and appeared to people in visions after his death or it was a mistaken identity. It could involve rumours and legends that got elaborated on. Note this is a very complicated topic due to the numerous appearances (to women, the disciples, Paul, etc) I probably can't argue very convincingly on this topic but I thought I'd have a go.

From
The cross from a paper plane....


1 Corinthians 15:4-8


It seems the order of some of these appearances is different from the gospels and Acts. Note that it doesn't seem to mention the women. But in the original version of Mark it only mentions the women and no-one else.

As far as the 500 go, I don't think that is mentioned anywhere else. I've heard some Christians say that if people in Paul's time wanted to check they would be able to just do it. But Paul doesn't even mention where those 500 saw Jesus or when or who so it would be hard to double check.

When it says "he appeared to me" Paul is talking about his vision so perhaps some of the other appearances are also visions.

Well it says "as to the child born at the wrong time" so is that saying that Paul was born after Jesus lived?

There is a Wikipedia article about this topic:
Post-Resurrection appearances of Jesus - Wikipedia

BTW note that in some of the gospels the women and some of the disciples sometimes didn't recognise Jesus at all... maybe it wasn't Jesus. Also in the gospels it said that some thought that Jesus was John the Baptist or Elijah.

I guess some Christians will say that group hallucinations aren't really possible but here is what Bart Ehrman had to say:

https://ehrmanblog.org/what-really-happens-with-group-visions/

I also have a problem that besides Paul and the disciples, the people who saw Jesus were already believers. I think it would be more amazing if normal people like critics saw Jesus too.

I'm curious why you think Jesus would do the one type of miracle but not the other?

It seems like you're saying it's possible Jesus was appearing to people and disappearing....but the idea that he actually rose from death is a stretch? Is that about correct?

That.... or it was a guy who looked like Jesus?

 

[JohnClay]

I'm curious why you think Jesus would do the one type of miracle but not the other?

It seems like you're saying it's possible Jesus was appearing to people and disappearing....but the idea that he actually rose from death is a stretch? Is that about correct?

That.... or it was a guy who looked like Jesus?

I am saying that maybe some people hallucinated seeing Jesus and there could be some cases of mistaken identity - which isn't really a miracle (well I believe in an intervening intelligent force so perhaps "God" caused the hallucinations - including group hallucinations [and in the O.T. some hear voices, etc])

Agnostic Scholar Bart Ehrman Claims Hallucinations, Not Resurrection, 'Made' Jesus God

This says:
"....The two most common kinds of hallucinations are of deceased loved ones. … And the second kind is of revered religious figures...."

And for the disciples Jesus was both.

I think the Bible is partly based on rumours and legends - and in some cases just made up to fulfil prophecies, etc. (like in the genealogies in the gospels)

 

[JohnClay]

Hallucination is a conclusion that it didn't happen, not an explanation of what happened. In regards to appearance or vision the distinction of concern is whether or not it was a purely mental event. Paul's account leaves him blind with scales over his eyes, so that is not a purely mental event. So even if you use Paul's experience to identify the rest they are still taking place in the physical world. That said it would not be proper to assume each mention is of the same type as Paul's. Not only was his encounter unique as a persecuter, the word used is broad enough to include all manner of occurrences in the physical world.

Perhaps Paul's experience was caused by what I call "an intelligent force" (which can be deceptive) - but for me that doesn't prove that everything in the Bible written about Jesus is therefore true.

John, your life seems to have Jesus revolving around it at a distance. When are you going to step forward and ask to meet Him?

I am reluctant to put God first - also in some of the gospels Jesus said to be a disciple you need to sell your possessions. Yes I know normal Christians don't take that part seriously. There is a passage that says that Satan can appear as an angel of light. I think the deceptive malicious force is very powerful and many times I have been deceived. My belief is that there is a loving force in my life based on some personal experiences but I can't be very sure about the details. Also a lot of pastors think some of my experiences were just coincidences. I think that a force could work through coincidences like how Jonah drew the short straw.

 

[JohnClay]

Ask Him, He won't mind... in fact He wants you to know.

The truth is real simple. You can PM me if you want to, I can relate to your journey...

I'm reluctant to try and determine the "Truth"... for me I think there is an intelligent force - which is a very vague belief - yet some people don't even think that is true. I guess your "Truth" is that the Bible is all true. I am quite sure that the Christmas stories are mostly made up.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Visions and hallucinations are slippery concepts. Let us go another way: Do rainbows exist? They are seen by multiple people, in more or less the same place, due to the same perception of light, but they don't actually 'exist' in a material sense where we perceive them to be.

Similarly, we don't actually 'see' or 'touch' anything, but have a mental creation in our minds of sensory input which is then rendered in a perceived reality. All of our perception is a simulacrum in essence. So what difference would there be between such a simulacrum seen by one and not by another? None at all. For this reason, the mentally ill see their hallucinations as as real as we perceive our reality - in essence, they are as real, both being mental constructions. The brain produces our idea of reality, even sometimes leaving out things, such as during psychological phenomena like Inattentional Blindness or so. Another good example are with cultural concepts, such as the perception of spirit or mana, no less than corporeal, in non-Westerners as Anthropology attests.

This is why we use intersubjectivity to determine 'reality' in the mentally ill, but this breaks down when we assume communal hallucinations - which does occur. So, we use a socio-cultural conception to try and sort out hallucination from 'real' perception; which is why our ancestors could believe wholeheartedly in heavenly visions of crosses or the appearance of the Dioscuri, but we can as confidently say no. Even if we assume we require materialist elements, we still run afoul that those particles first need to be perceived themselves, so that is frankly a circular argument. I am not even mentioning Idealists or schools of Buddhism that see our perceptions as ultimately void in entirety, merely emptiness, sunyata.

If we go back to Paul, his vision is both intensely personal, but perceived differently by his companions. In Acts Paul sees, but they only hear. Though of course, that depends how much trust you put in the source material. However, if visions exist, there is no objective way to differentiate them from hallucinations; but then again, there is no objective way to differentiate hallucination from quotidian perception, just intersubjectively and socio-cultural.

So as with so many things, it comes down to faith in your sources. A Real glorified body or a series of visions would physiologically be perceived the same, and are frankly indistinguishable from hallucinations. Culturally, the early Church accepted them as very much Real, and presumably the Jewish leadership did not, but favouring the one above the other is a subjective determination, on faith; and modern materialist rejection of the possibility, merely a product of mental framework and a different set of intersubjective determinations. Perception is slippery indeed, especially on the grounds of determining what is real.